doc benway

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I manifest consciousness, as do all other people (more or less...) and animals. For some reason most of us can't fathom the possibility that there may be some manifestation of consciousness in other entities such as the sun, moon, earth, plants, a mountain, a river, etc... I'm not saying there is but why not? Just so alien that you and I can't really relate. These very same people often have no problem postulating some imaginary immortals, gods, space aliens, spirits, ghosts, and so on. At the same time, I'm quick to point out that any "intention" we project to "inanimate" objects (as we assume them to be) may well be just that - our own projections. I don't know, but I'm open to possibilities. Some of this comes from intimate conversations with a close friend and healer who is a shaman. And I'll freely acknowledge that despite using lots of words, I don't always do a very good job of communicating!

Very sad. Nothing worthwhile to say but my heart goes out to the families of the victims.

The pig has always freaked me out a little, reminds me of a scene from The Shining... I really like your avatar. I loved the Shrike and just about everything Dan Simmons has written! Wonderful story! I have always really liked your avatar. When I first joined Tao Bums I used the nickname xuesheng=student. I try to cultivate a beginner's mind. After a while the nature of this forum and what I hoped to get out of it suggested to me to drop the nickname so now I just use my name. My most recent previous avatar was a photo of me taken by my brother while we were hanging out in Haarlem, Netherlands. My current avatar is a cubist drawing made by my daughter for a class in abject art and female issues. Great thread! I've always been curious about name and avatars but never asked. This would be a good sticky!

I really like that. It's quite profound in its implications and nuance.

I need to think about this for a while - very good stuff. Thanks

Nicely said.

Just to clarify, I don't mean necessarily to imply the presence of any "higher consciousness." We each manifest consciousness. Every living thing manifests consciousness (we just don't understand it because we can't think their thoughts or feel their feelings). We feel utterly alien to each other for this reason so imagine how alien the consciousness of a tree or river(?) is. So I don't mean to imply there is a particular greater consciousness that has a specific plan or intent (ala New or Old Testament or Q'ran). I don't know what is going on but I do know that "I" and all the rest of you "I"s out there manifest consciousness. And I think all components of the universe do. So there is great consciousness acting in our world. And most of it is completely un-knowable to us. And "I don't know" the extent of it all butI think it's folly to deny that consciousness and intent is at play in all things.

I'll start with the second question first - I think that our inner nature does change, life is change. I don't think that "I" can force a change. But I do think that as we gain life experience and become increasingly aware of our behavior and our relationships with others, that we can certainly identify things which are more important to us and emphasize those values in our choices. And what is important to us changes with different phases in our lives. So this is an ongoing, dynamic process. So for example, I may be the kind of father who feels it is important to have the last word and guide or even control the behavior of one of my children. Perhaps this was the only role model I ever knew. And this leads to conflict. Maybe the child is rebellious or defiant. And the conflict escalates to the point of violence (not necessarily physical, but emotional, psychological, verbal). And one day I have an insight into the fact that the child is distant and bitter and won't confide in me. And I see how it is connected to my behavior and stubborn attachment to be in control. Then I can make a choice - be more tolerant, accept certain behavior that might have previously been unacceptable. Allow the child to make certain choices and experience the consequences, good or bad. And still be there to pick them up and hug them when they are hurt. I make a choice to be loving and supportive rather than authoritarian. And this is because I see that the future of our relationship depends on developing confidence and trust rather than discipline. So both of our lives are enriched but I'm still a bit uneasy to watch the child make occasional "wrong" choices or "mistakes" that I may have helped them to avoid. We are rarely completely undivided. The irony and beauty is that the child will soon become much more open to my guidance because that is THEIR choice. So I started with focusing on the importance of discipline and the responsibility of guiding the child to the right decisions. And I recognized that a close relationship depending on tempering that with kindness, support, and encouragement. By identifying the values that were more important to me (having a loving and supportive relationship with my child) and changing my behavior accordingly, I was able to enrich both of our lives. I think flexibility is important also. So I can choose to be a vegetarian because I am honoring the value of life and not harming animals, fish, and foul. And there comes a time when I really crave meat and no substitute is adequate. So I eat the meat. I make a choice. I'm going against that value but for a good reason - my body is telling me that I need the meat. And then I can resume honoring my choice to being vegetarian when I'm ready. I don't think this has to be all or none. It just has to be a conscious process. We need to be aware.

That was beautiful Steve.

Hi Aaron, I'm very sorry to hear about your pain and struggle. Ultimately, I don't think it matters in the end to the universe but I do think it matters to those in your life who know you and care about you. Your brother, your cats, your internet friends, and there are probably others who care more than you realize. I don't know you at all so this advice could be far off the mark but something occurs to me that could potentially be helpful. Sometimes we get too wrapped up in our heads and thoughts. Whether its hours on a forum or reading or studying or just thinking or whatever. And our life in the world can suffer as a result. Sometimes its important to "get of you our heads and into our lives!" Step away from the computer, put down the book, turn off the TV, and live. Talk to people who might be able to help, put more time into work or finding work. Put more time into developing personal relationships and so on. Again - I don't know if this applies to you but perhaps it could be of some value. It's something I need to be mindful of in my own life. Best wishes for some peace and stability in your life.

I think that all decisions in life have many facets. Some positive and some negative. Sometimes the decision is very easy and sometimes hard. This is yin and yang, the negative within the positive and the positive within the negative. It is unavoidable. One approach is to become familiar with your core values - what are the most important things to you, deep down; how do you want to be remembered when you are gone; what would you like your children to say about you to their friends? Many ways to look at it but the important thing is to identify those values and bring them into your consciousness. When a decision is difficult, it can help to consider whether your choices will be in accordance with these values or go against these values. If the are consistent, then you are in accordance with your nature - Wu Wei. If inconsistent, you will be divided and conflicted. You will rarely be completely undivided but the knowledge and feeling that you are living a life of personal integrity is valuable. This approach has been very helpful to me in dealing with difficult issues over the past few years.

Cool content, nice rhythm. Bravo - Thanks for sharing that

So I asked you to tell me what you think my beliefs are, from your perspective. You begrudgingly answered and I proceeded to tell you that you are wrong. What an ass I am! You should have stuck to your guns I guess. My apologies.

I think there's truth to both perspectives. I'm one that is very intense and can stick with something for a very long time. I know many others like me in the martial arts world. I also see many, many folks come and go who jump in with high intensity and are gone in a few months or maybe a few years at most. I think its a very individual thing and I'm not sure there are many rules or clues as to who will stay and who will go.

That's a beautiful story and I appreciate your comments. My choice of word, "arise," was not very skillful. I guess I mean something more along the lines of, would there be consciousness without boundaries? And one could similarly ask would there be boundaries without consciousness? It seems to relate to Daoist theory of mutual arising - Wu Ji giving birth to Tai Ji, undifferentiated vs differentiated.

Interesting to hear the talk of multiple "me's". Not something I've really been aware of or thought about much. Thanks for that perspective folks.

Hmmm, I'm not sure that I'm wanting to define a unifying principle. I agree 100% with you on process. I think I'm more with Otis on "I don't know" and yet in trying to be open and receptive, I do feel things and I think that's what's coming out. Think of Biology for a moment. It is impossible to define an individual living organism without including it's environment. Take away the air they breath, the food they eat, the water, sunshine,... and what do you have? So the illusion of an individual human relates to the thought process (that pesky thought the claims it is "me") and the sensory organs which limit our antennae to just perceiving a limited amount of information from a limited perspective. Take the "individual" organism out of its environment and it is dead. So what truly exists is organismenvironment. If you extend that thinking to an ecological system, there is no such thing as an individual. "The universe does not judge like we do, that is a particularly human characteristic (and so is intent! you may argue). So if a child dies of leukemia, that is not an inhumane act of the universe. It is simply an occurrence without concern for human judgement. So as the universe acts towards humanity, DDJ suggests that the sage should consider the acts of other humans. Because what are they if not just instruments of the universe?" Please take another look. I'm saying the the sage should treat other humans just as the universe treats humanity. I think you misunderstood me and we're in agreement here. Excellent - thanks for expanding that. Good points. The only kicker is the experimental finding that the action occurs before the awareness of intention. So what is intention really? Could it just be our recording of the event. Those sensory perceptions you describe lead to the action and that pesky thought that claims to be "me" jumps in to take credit and act as if "me" was necessary for the response to occur.

With those uses of intent, one can see how it can be related to attachment and, ultimately, frustration or disappointment. True, we are looking at intent a bit differently. So I guess your "intent" is more one of a specific plan associated with a goal that is all put together by the thinking mind. I think that is probably the proper use of the word. I guess I'm just jazzing around, not making much sense. I'm in one of those moods.

Good point about boundaries - without them, life would be pretty dull. Now, I'm not sure that the boundaries are a condition on consciousness. That's a really interesting question. If there is no separation, how does consciousness arise? What is there to be aware of and what is there to know that awareness exists? Hard to put this into words... Hmm, not sure about that. Perhaps it is the very illusion of separation, Maya itself, that is necessary for consciousness to arise. After all, what are we if not the eyes and ears through which the universe is aware of itself? I wonder if one of our Buddhist brothers or sisters will weigh in on this as they are very well versed in theoretical descriptions of consciousness and non-duality and so on.

And we get such mixed messages. We're told, it's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game. We're told winning is not everything. Bullshit!!! How many NBA teams are lauded for winning second place? How many losers are celebrated in media and given advertising contracts? Our society is in love with winning and winning is violence. To win, you must cause someone else to lose. And that is painful. Our society is exceedingly violent and often in very subtle ways. But it gives lip service to non-violence and love. How many "religious" people are truly loving and accepting? Lots of mixed messages create the dichotomy you opened your post with.

Just so I'm clear - I have no idea if there is intent like I'm describing outside human experience nor do I believe there is, want there to be, or mean to push the idea. I just feel it's an interesting area to explore. Wu Wei and intent are very interesting bedfellows. I look at Wu Wei is meaning more to "not go against" or "not swim against the current" more than to necessarily act without thought or without intent. We have brains and minds and I think it is in our nature to use our capacity for thought and reason. I think it is going against our nature to try to not use those capacities. So although it may absolutely be in our nature to engage in many physical activities where the thinking mind is not playing a controlling role (dance, taiji [maybe, arguable], driving, sex, ...) and there are times when the mind is simply in the way or a distraction, this does not mean, at least to me, that it is not in keeping with Wu Wei to act with intent and utilizing our full capacities as human beings when and where it is appropriate. I guess what I'm exploring is this. We, as humans, know a quality of thinking and feeling that we label intent. It is partly intellectual but also partly other. Emotional feelings drive behavior, spiritual goals or experiences or states drive behavior, even physical sensations like hunger and thirst and sexual drive create intent. So we are aware of our intent and feel that it is fully and uniquely human. And then we make the assumption (and this is what I am questioning) that we are the only entities on earth that are motivated by intent. Perhaps there is a quality of intent that the sparrow manifests and is intimately comfortable with it. It's just not something we can access. Same with anything else - the sun, stars. We manifest intent, we are the universe, why do we then deny all other creatures and the universe itself of possessing or being motivated by intent. Just something that is way at the back, subtle, that doesn't sit right with me. I would love to hear what my belief system sounds like to others if you ever feel like summarizing it in a post - sincerely, I'm not trying to be patronizing. We think we know ourselves but we never really know how others see us. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what I believe myself! So to address your points. You manifest intelligence and consciousness so the universe is intelligent and conscious. Unless, of course, you insist on considering your self "other" than the universe. Then what are you? Regarding Chapter 5 of DDJ - I don't think this has anything to do with universal consciousness or intent but rather judgement. If we judge the actions of others or the occurrences in the universe we do so from our own human conditioning with respect to concepts like right and wrong, compassionate or dispassionate, and so on. The universe does not judge like we do, that is a particularly human characteristic (and so is intent! you may argue). So if a child dies of leukemia, that is not an inhumane act of the universe. It is simply an occurrence without concern for human judgement. So as the universe acts towards humanity, DDJ suggests that the sage should consider the acts of other humans. Because what are they if not just instruments of the universe? This is equivalent to Zuang Zi's Empty Boat parable. I'm totally fine with the crude facts of reality. I was very a-theistic in my thoughts for a very long time. It's just now there are some things I've experienced that challenge the nihilistic qualities that are so pervasive (unnecessarily so, IMO) in most atheistic lines of thought. Hmmm, I'm have trouble with "perception of a cause for thought." If intent is not a thought, what is it?

I have two dogs - an English bulldog and a Havanese terrier. When the terrier was a pup, the bulldog bit her in the face and fractured her jaw. It was horrific - surgery, Elizabethan collar, taped jaw, etc... About a year or two later, the Havanese got revenge. She was at the top of two flights of stairs barking at the bulldog, baiting her to come up. The bulldog struggles on stairs because she's fat and has short legs but couldn't resist and lumbered on up. Just as she reached the top, the Havanese backed up, took a running leap and body slammed the bulldog. The poor thing rolled downed both flights of stairs like a bowling bowl. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would never believe it. Paybacks are, literally, a bitch!

Nice list! I can second Tantric Quest by Odier - great book

Here are a few I like, be forewarned I have eccentric tastes in film - Enter the Void - Gaspard Noe Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead and a DMT trip, very long, bizarre, and beautiful El Topo - Alejandro Jodorowsky An allegoric Western imbued with Eastern philosophy and outrageous imagery Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter,... and Spring - Kim ki-duk Set in a Korean Buddhist monastery - brilliant Kung Fu Hustle - Stephen Chow One of my all time favorite martial arts films, I never get tired of it Pan's Labyrinth - Guillermo del Toro Visually and emotionally stunning

I appreciate your thorough response and I would like to take this a step further. It's interesting, as people we are struggling with this idea of intent and make the assumption that lower animals, plants, mountains, streams, the sun, and so on do not have intent. We assume that the universe does not possess or manifest intent but it certainly does, at least through us! Could it be that it is the sun's intent to shine? The eagle's intent to fly? And that is exactly why they do what they do? Or rather the intent inherent in Dao that is expressed through these things. I guess what I'm wondering goes along these lines. Humans manifest intent and are, in turn, manifestations of Dao. Could everything be a manifestation of intent at a level that is so sophisticated, so foreign, that it is not available to us? I know I'm just f-ing around with words and ideas but sometimes I feel like we blind ourselves to the obvious. We have intent - clearly. We are nothing more or less than the universe doing what it does right here, right now, in the space "we" are occupying. We are not "other than" the universe, we are just restricted in terms of our ability to directly experience beyond the boundary of our skin and vision (mostly). So how can we then pretend that the universe has no intent. And if we have or are a manifestation of intent, why not the sun?