doc benway

And a lot more "Christian!" That is, less intolerance, less gay-bashing, less judgmental. These moron fundamentalists are anathema to everything true Christian doctrine teaches (love, acceptance, tolerance, being non-judgemental). Perhaps the Rapture is a win-win: these losers get to leave earth for a better place and we get to live without their insecurity, intolerance, and hatred, allowing us to live in a better place. Good f-ing riddance!

No question, it cuts both ways. Buddha addressed this - look at everything he said and his followers said as critically as possible. If it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, throw it out! Edit - I can't spell

Anyone know of a good Chinese word processor that works well with Mac. I've been using NJStar with CodeWeaver but it's buggy and even more so since I upgraded to Snow Leopard.

I find it notable that you are able to see deep meaning in a mediocre sci-fi film like The Adjustment Bureau but cannot fathom the possibility of learning anything from relationships with human beings. I point this out only in hopes that it may help in some way.

Oh, before I leave, happy birthday!

Oh My God!!! It's happening!!!! Everywhere, chaos! Screaming, crying, some folks are flying up into heaven in a beautiful blue light. Others are tearing their hair and clothes. Children being torn from their parents' breasts!!! It's horrib.... wait a minute, they're taking me. All I see is a blinding, beautiful light and I'm floating up and my clothes are falling away and I see something far in the distance. It's Jesus, wait a minute, someone is sitting next to him, it's Gautama Buddha!! And there's Laozi and Moses and Mohammed!!! And there are virgins everywhere! And harps and angels. This is way cool guys. See ya around.

I think you are absolutely correct. Daoist writings say nothing if not that the sage is simple, ordinary, and unconcerned with status and station. Enlightenment is not about being in a position that is approved by or admired by society. It is not about monetary success. I also think it's possible that your awakening can result from interacting with someone at McDonald's who causes something in you to stir, to wake up. And that person may have no idea what they did to cause that in you and it may be completely unintentional and they might not be a master of anything. Furthermore, one does not need to be a master of any particular discipline (Daoism, Buddhism,...) to be fully awakened (enlightened). At least, that's my opinion.

I don't think anyone wants to stop you, I certainly don't. Many have said that explicitly already. They are just responding to your provocations and damnations. The only energy I feel in your posts is that of extreme fear, uncertainty, insecurity, and dissatisfaction. Things that are part of the human condition. Things that affect all of us. Your intensity of desire for a better life certainly comes through loud and clear. Good luck with your trip and studies in the Himalayas. I look forward to hearing about your experiences and progress if you are able to or interested in communicating with us when you are there or after you return.

RAOTFLMFAO Thank you for that

Your comments about Manitou's relationship are just a reflection of your ignorance and lack of life experience. Often, the only people who can understand and support each other are those who have experienced similar trauma. That is why there are support groups for traumatic experiences (veterans, rape, murder, PTSD, cancer, depression, addiction, and on and on...). A non-addict can never understand the pain and suffering of an addict fully, hence they usually are unable to ride out the hellish ups and downs associated with living with a recovering addict. Recovering addicts are generally the best support possible for each other. That is fact, your opinion and my opinion don't matter.

No one needs to say it, all you need to do is open your eyes and mind and heart. The Tao is not something that you or anyone else defines with words or opinions. The Tao is that which is, all around us and inside us, always. Your desire to hide from your heart, society, and the opposite (or same) gender is also part of the Tao but does not cause money, sex, marriage, career, family, children, etc... to cease to be a part of it. If those things were not part of the Tao, you would not exist, nor any of us. You need to get out of your mind and into your life a little, if you can't see this already.

I look at attachment as having a quality of identifying with, linking one's happiness or fulfillment to the outcome. Dedication can be present, a conscious decision to remain focused and involved, without linking it to one's happiness. In this way, attachment and dedication are different for me. I think the Dalai Lama is both dedicated and attached. He is human after all. I think all humans have attachments. Some try to recognize and let them go, others don't. They are never gone entirely, IMO, just more subtle, less consuming, or better hidden. Please do not live your life according to my expectations or standards. I've never asked you to do that intentionally, and if I have done so unintentionally, please forgive me and disregard that message. It is never selfish for me to live my life exactly as I see fit. Selfishness arises when I expect others to live their lives as I see fit. My responses to your posts have mostly been with the intention of helping you to see aspects that you may have overlooked or not yet seen. Furthermore, your comments or the way in which they are delivered have the distinct quality of communicating to others that they should be living their lives according to your expectations and standards. I am simply sharing alternative perspectives to this. You have a telling way of projecting your dissatisfaction with self toward others. It is very clear in your posts. You have been telling everyone on this forum, in a relatively abrupt and rude manner, that their ways are crap and yours is the only way. Now you tell me that you shouldn't live your life according to my expectations when I never suggested that you do so. Can you see what's going on there? The first step on the path to cultivation, enlightenment, whatever word you like, is to look carefully at yourself. This can be done anywhere - India, Tibet, New York, prison, it doesn't matter. You're not doing that work at all yet, you're just looking outside yourself. Trying to find the best system, guru, place to learn. All that is fluff. Wherever you end up, with whatever guru or method, you will ultimately be faced with the task of looking deeply at yourself and getting to know what you/that is. "I can think. I can wait. I can fast." Siddhartha by Hesse

If all is impermanent, then realization is impermanent. If any realization is permanent, then ALL is not impermanent. This is the trap - to believe Buddhahood to be the one permanent thing, Buddhists cling to a goal of attaining it. Even that must be let go for us to approach liberation. I think this is addressed by the koan - If you see the Buddha in the road KILL HIM! Now I'm not a Buddhist, mind you, and I'm not at all well versed in scripture and doctrine and metaphysical debate so you can argue circles around me. But I believe this is a critical and subtle attachment that many Buddhists get stuck on. And I don't mean to imply that you are stuck on it because I really don't know you at all, but I think many are.

Nicely said

You're right, even Buddhahood is illusory, if it's all impermanent, its ALL impermanent. That's the irony. But it is still worth the game because its not about the end. Its not about whether things last or not. Its about the fact they are now. Life is now. Living is now and now is eternal. It is always now, never tomorrow and never yesterday. So you live forever if you live NOW. To use Alan Watts' beautiful analogy, you don't go to the symphony just to hear the final chord. You go to listen to the music, each note and the transition to the next. Its about the rhythm and the intervals, not the notes. Another great story - Once, Mullah Nasruddin bought a violin. And he began to play. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... Same note, same string, over and over. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... After a few hours his wife was at her wits' end. "Nasruddin!" she screamed. NEEE.. Nasruddin put down the bow. "Yes dear?" "Why do you play the same note? It's driving me crazy! All the real violin players move their fingers up and down, play on different strings! Why don't you play like they do?" "Well dear, I know why they go up and down and try all different strings." "Why is that?" "They're looking for "this" note! And he picked up his bow and resumed his playing. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE....

Some nice comments in this thread - awareness, mindfulness, non-judgement - beautiful stuff.

Amen. Life is precious exactly because of death. Beautiful things like family, children, friendships, lovers, are precious because they will be gone someday. It is the way of things - Taji. If you choose not to live because you fear death, if you choose not to love because you fear loss, what a dreary life you will lead. I feel sorry for you but I do understand. An insulated life in a little safe, padded box doesn't seem like it will be painful or threatening but life is not without pain or loss even for the masters. And why so much talk about the masters anyway? They are themselves, we are ourselves. It is not my goal to become them but to become me! And no one can show me how to be me but me.

Double post

Yeah, I agree there are others (and I'd love to hear some of your group-huggy thoughts, seriously) but I also like to remind myself of the negative reasons as well - otherwise, I might get a big head!

Thanks Kate - yup, a small fissure is now forming just above Bai Hui - I thought it was opening due to successful cultivation but methinks it's just cranial swelling... Apech's last post does a pretty good job addressing your questions but I'll add a bit more. 1. I agree that scientific reporting does not consistently and explicitly address the Heisenberg effect and that's for a few reasons - a. in science, something that is a basic principle and universally agreed upon is not restated with each new experiment. It is assumed that everyone recognizes this principle to be in effect and affecting all experimental results - b. To my knowledge we have not really figured out how to deal with the observer influence effect entirely. Depending on experimental design there are some very elegant solutions and in other systems they are just there. The bottom line is, as Apech emphasized, that the scientific method still works and gives reproducible, predictable, measurable, and applicable results. 2. Excellent point and I do think there is a lot of truth there. I see it every day. And in the medical profession, there are very strong measures in place to try and identify any time someone is receiving any financial support from any commercial source. This is disclosed at every gathering of researchers and in every peer reviewed journal. And of course it still has an effect on what people study and the results. We'd be blind and foolish to claim otherwise. Every human being is affected by influence, whether it be external or internal. Money is a potent influence as is prestige, self-expectations, and job security, and so on. I agree with Apech that the majority of scientists are truth seekers and try hard to limit distraction and corruption in their work. Some will always be present and some are very prone to it. Similarly, Daoists and other followers of empiric and experiential methods are equally likely to be affected by external and internal influence. At least in the scientific world it is usually easily recognizable and often measureable as in junk science (Immortal4life is an expert on this) and large scale corruption (ie big Pharm and the US Congress). Sadly, it is often much more harmful in this arena. Daoists and other empiric "scientists" on the other hand, have absolutely no way of measuring, testing, or demonstrating their discoveries in an "objective" fashion - that is, a demonstration that is independently verifiable, reproducible, and having predictive properties as in the requirements of the scientific method. All internal experience could be a product of our imagination or an implant from an alien or communication with spirits, ancestors, immortals, etc... It cannot be verified for or against. It is a gratuitous assertion. If you think that our expectations, hopes, and dreams are not reflected in our internal experience during Daoist meditation (and any other method) then you are kidding yourself. That doesn't mean these experiences are not "real" or valuable but everything we see and experience and cultivate could simply be a product of our expectations - no way to tell yea or nay. My Daoist meditation teacher forbids his students from discussing their progress with each other early in their training for just this reason. This prohibition is loosened as time and skill progresses. And just like in science, Daoist methods produce results, even though the methods have all the weaknesses I mentioned. I couldn't agree with you more on this point. Many of our technological advancements have the ultimate effect of throwing nature out of balance and changing human kind, mostly for the worse, in my opinion. Sure, our lives are easier, we have more food, less disease, live longer, and so on. But is this really human? We are anxious, poisoned, neurotic, and physically weak. We are overfed and underactive. We work ourselves literally to death for a goal that we never quite reach. The earth is so dramatically out of balance that it takes all of our resources to try to maintain this imbalance (ie overpopulation fed by engineered food and water sources which cause further imbalanced overpopulation and so on - a vicious cycle). So I agree with you completely on this point, Taomeow. And many of my colleagues and friends do as well. I think many of us see this and are making positive changes in our lives to address it. It can only be addressed on an individual basis and perhaps some day a critical mass will be reached and real, large scale change will occur. And perhaps not. Our world truly is sick and dying and I don't believe technology can save us. I think it is more likely to destroy itself - an example of nature policing herself and restoring balance. This is why my current favorite quotation comes from Jiddu Krishnamurti and I'll paraphrase it - It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to such a profoundly sick society.

One can be lonely in a room full of friends. One can be completely immune to loneliness without any human contact. No need to bother with imaginary goals. Life is practice. Poetry is practice. That's the secret you may find after spending a few decades in a cave. How much time do you think Chia spends training when he's creating 36 DVD's and writing dozens of books? You're quite entertaining, BOL, thanks for your contributions.

I'm not an -ist of any sort, although my work is in the scientific arena and my philosophy/psychology/cultivation in the Daoist arena. That said, I feel obligated to address the above as I think they mis-characterize Western science and Daoist "science." 1. Science has recognized interdependence and the lack of objectivity since Heisenberg in 1925. This has served as the foundation for Quantum mechanics and some of the most important advancements in the 20th and 21st centuries. Certainly this effect is often intentionally ignored as it is often not significant enough to effect outcomes and results. Pretending there is objectivity, as you assert, is not a limitation in scientific advancement - I think that's pretty clear by the results. On the other hand, I agree in the importance of acknowledging the spirit in my own life but it is not measurable in such a way as to incorporate it in the Western scientific method currently. There are plenty of Western scientists exploring this area, however, such as Amit Goswami, John Hagelin, David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and many others. 2. I think it is inaccurate to say the "science" is on any payroll. Certainly dollars play a critical role in many of those using the scientific method and enormous corruption exists. Nevertheless, the method itself is effective when properly implemented and I think it is unfair to accuse the entire discipline of corruption. There are many people devoting their lives to real scientific inquiry with intentions as pure as the purest Daoist sage. I have worked with many personally. 3. The scientific method is so rigorous that no unifying theory has yet to be found. Nevertheless, the scientific method is damn effective (for better or worse) and that is beyond reasonable challenge. The lack of a unifying theory does not negate the method - to the contrary, it reinforces its validity, consistency, and integrity. The unifying theory in Daoism would not qualify as a theory in terms of the scientific method. It works in the realm of Daoist thought, metaphysics, cultivation, ritual, and so on but is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word. It cannot be submitted to observable and reproducible experimental design therefore it is empiric and experiential. Comparison of Western scientific methods and Daoist methods is meaningless - apples and oranges. In fact, I believe that the universe will forever elude a unifying scientific theory. I don't think that the human mind and it's methods of classification and communication are capable of capturing the nature of reality in an equation. That said, string theory is pretty damn interesting stuff. All that said - I would agree with your co-creation leanings. I respect the power and value of science and I despise how it is exploited for profit and power. I respect the power of Daoist cultivation and investigation (and Buddhist, Christian, and Jewish as well) and I similarly despise how they are exploited for profit and power. The spirit or soul or whatever we call it are real and experiential and cannot be captured by experiment.... yet. That's OK, it doesn't lessen science or the spirit.

BTW, Dune is a magnificent book. Probably the single best sci fi book I've read. The movie was good but doesn't come close to doing it justice. Originally, Alejandro Jodorowsky was going to direct the film but it was canned due to his eccentric approach and the cowardice of his producers. Check out this link for an interesting read - http://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/jodorowsky.asp

Please let me know what you think of Cloud Atlas when you finish it. I'm currently reading The Voice of the Fire by Alan Moore. He's famous for graphic novels (Lost Girls, V for Vendetta, From Hell,...). This is a very cool book (though not sci fi) that starts ~ 6000 BC and marches forward in successive chapters to the present. All stories being set in the region of Northampton, UK. Very good so far.