doc benway

In general, I agree with most of what you are saying but you are misrepresenting my intention and I'd like to respond to a few points. Generally, you don't know if it's a post that may contain something insulting or hurtful until its too late. Certainly we can turn on the ignore function but if you are participating in an active discussion you usually can't anticipate someone offering an insult and skip that post until you've already read it. I disagree completely. Insults lead to escalation of tensions, not relaxation. Kind words and understanding, finding some common ground upon which we can share and agree leads to relaxation. Gandhi, Mandela, and similar great men and women recognized this. Violence, whether by words or deed, never solves violence. Only non-violence can do that. And insult or "rough language" as you put it is violence using language. Insults are not an effective way of demolishing something unwanted for the purposes of renovation and rebuilding. Insults are not criticism. Insults are an attack on the person providing an opinion. Criticism is an attack on the opinion. Criticism, when constructive and compassionate, is a much more effective method than insult. Insult only causes defensiveness, making it much harder to renovate or reconstruct. I agree 100%. You have proven my point. When we insult, we are intentionally and exactly disrespecting and attacking the person, not their opinion. I never said not to criticize. I said do not insult. I agree with everything here but notice that you have substituted the word criticize for insult. I was specifically referring to personal insults, not criticism. Furthermore, it is not impossible or even difficult to show respect for the person while not respecting their opinion or idea. Again, I disagree with you on this point. It is very easy to avoid insult. One simply has to be aware and mindful. Simply read your post before hitting the 'Add Reply' button. If anything seems personally insulting, edit or delete. Continued use of insults will and should lead to censorship and repression exactly as is occurring right now on this forum and that is completely appropriate, IMO. Personal insult should be censored and those communicating using personal attacks will necessarily be repressed. Criticism should not be censored. Disrespect, IMO, should be focused on the idea, not the individual. Disrespect is a bit more of a judgement call for the mods. Personal insult is clearer. Like I said, I agree with much of what you are saying. The problem is that you are confusing insult (an attack on the person) with criticism (an attack on the idea). Certainly, some people perceive an insult when what is offered is a criticism, that is unavoidable but can be generally be clarified with rational discussion. Furthermore, the moderators are doing a very good job of drawing that line and helping participants to see the difference. And I have confidence that they will continue to do so.

Very nice post Stig. Something occurred to me that Apech touches upon here which is the nature of cultivation. Certainly cultivation is contained within Dao, as is intravenous drug addiction. Both are part of the human condition but not all aspects of Dao and not all aspects of the human condition can be considered cultivation. And yet, if the attitude, the mental approach, are correct, nearly all human activity can be considered cultivation because one thing we are cultivating is the skill of the mental approach itself. And this boils down to intent and awareness. If I am full aware of what I am doing and harness my 'mind of intent' as my teacher likes to say, then I am practicing cultivation of a sort. The difficult arises with respect to the nature of the activity in question. And this can be a challenging question. So if the murderer uses his full awareness and mind of intent in his chosen activity, is that not cultivation? When harming or exploiting oneself or others comes into play, the nature of the game changes. And what about farming animals for food? What about eating meat? Is it OK to kill an animal for my survival? What about fishing for entertainment if I practice catch and release? Where to draw the line? Certainly nature kills indiscriminately. Every living thing on this planet lives at the expense of other life, that is the way of things. What are we cultivating and why? The majority of posts I see on this forum relative to Daoist cultivation refer to the process of cultivating Qi and Shen for very selfish and trivial purposes. People looking for power. Why? Generally to have power over others. This is not Wu Wei. People looking to prolong life. Why? Isn't death a natural and integral part of the Dao? Why fight it? This is not Wu Wei. Total misinterpretations of concepts like immortality and reincarnation. One component of cultivation that is often lacking is the heart - compassion, love, community, and so on. I think this is most often seen with those who don't have the benefit of a teacher and are stuck with finding exercises in a book or videotape. They don't get the personal interaction and communication that is so critical in guiding someone along this type of path. They don't get the moderation of desire and drive for personal gain. The don't really get a sense of Wu Wei. Perhaps the answer to this conundrum is what Apech suggests = De 德. De has many translations and this has been discussed on this forum enough but most would agree on some variant of virtue. Similarly, we can look at the compound word Dao De 道德 which generally connotes ethics or morality. Hence the interpretation of the Dao De Jing as the Classic on Morality or Ethics. Each of us has a choice in what we cultivate. Personal power, martial excellence, economic power, sexual power, compassion, loving-kindness, drug addiction, and so on. Who gets to decide what is meaningful cultivation and what is not? We do - each and every one of us. And the character of our lives and the character of our world is reflected by those choices we make. This is why no government or religion can ever change the world. Ultimately political and religious leaders don't matter, the individual matters. I see this as the reason for the very potent Daoist message that the individual is so important. Not so much that the intention is one of personal power over others or a selfish approach to life. Rather, that the future of humankind rests on the individual choices each of us makes. I am the universe. If I change, the universe will change. If I expect change to come from government or religious leaders or any outside source - HAH! They've had 40,000 years to make a difference in our lives and here we are facing the same problems humanity has always struggled with.

I know this may sound a bit mamsy-pamsy to some but when discussing debate that verges on personal insult I would also add the following. I carefully reread every post I write in its entirety AT LEAST once. I consider whether the words I'm using will be hurtful, embarrassing, or insulting to anyone. If so, I rewrite or delete. As I'm writing I also consider whether there is a way to make my words encouraging to people rather than discouraging. Sometimes I'll even go so far as sharing something about myself that shows the other person that I understand how they seem to be feeling or have experienced the things they may be relating, or that I at least recognize that I'm no better than them. I hope that comes through in my posts and if it does not, I will try harder. What would it be like if we all tried to develop skill in communicating in such a way that we build each other up rather than tear each other down? What if we actively tried to express love, compassion, and support in our communication? For all the Buddhist words bandied about on this forum, and all the debate intended to demonstrate the depth of Buddhist knowledge and thought, I see very little expression of love, compassion, and metta. A few really beautiful people have abandoned this community due to this lack of compassion and civility, and that's OK, forums, like life, change. So I would simply like to offer the perspective that communicating our ideas from a place of love, compassion, and mutual support is possible even during a heated and intellectually honest debate. Insults are never "healthy," period. Insults are never necessary, there is always a more skillful alternative in communication. Sure, most of us can shrug them off and see the humor in them, and just see them for what they are - which is an expression of the character of the person offering them rather than an indication of the character of the person on the receiving end. They are an indication of lack of skill or lack of maturity in communication, in my opinion. They are intended to cause pain or embarrassment and there is always a healthier alternative. Sometimes, an insult is unintentional, and that may be unavoidable. But if we think about what we are saying before posting, most can be avoided. Hence, if my expression of this opinion causes anyone embarrassment or pain, then I apologize, but I do think this is an area where we can all grow and better ourselves. If we can become more skillful in our communication, as a community, imagine how healthy and supportive we could be for each other.

Reminds me of a joke my daughter told me when she was about 17 - it's a bit heartless so read on at your own peril... So this baby seal walks into a club....

"i have meditated for about maybe 2-3 hours today.. didn't keep track as i kept losing consciousness.." I loved this post - really got a belly laugh. I won't post the author since he's not in a position to defend himself currently. I like it in a good way. It's like something one of my kids might say - adorable.

It's started in Taiwan! Watch to the end. Sorry, can't seem to get the file to embed properly

And a lot more "Christian!" That is, less intolerance, less gay-bashing, less judgmental. These moron fundamentalists are anathema to everything true Christian doctrine teaches (love, acceptance, tolerance, being non-judgemental). Perhaps the Rapture is a win-win: these losers get to leave earth for a better place and we get to live without their insecurity, intolerance, and hatred, allowing us to live in a better place. Good f-ing riddance!

No question, it cuts both ways. Buddha addressed this - look at everything he said and his followers said as critically as possible. If it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, throw it out! Edit - I can't spell

Anyone know of a good Chinese word processor that works well with Mac. I've been using NJStar with CodeWeaver but it's buggy and even more so since I upgraded to Snow Leopard.

I find it notable that you are able to see deep meaning in a mediocre sci-fi film like The Adjustment Bureau but cannot fathom the possibility of learning anything from relationships with human beings. I point this out only in hopes that it may help in some way.

Oh, before I leave, happy birthday!

Oh My God!!! It's happening!!!! Everywhere, chaos! Screaming, crying, some folks are flying up into heaven in a beautiful blue light. Others are tearing their hair and clothes. Children being torn from their parents' breasts!!! It's horrib.... wait a minute, they're taking me. All I see is a blinding, beautiful light and I'm floating up and my clothes are falling away and I see something far in the distance. It's Jesus, wait a minute, someone is sitting next to him, it's Gautama Buddha!! And there's Laozi and Moses and Mohammed!!! And there are virgins everywhere! And harps and angels. This is way cool guys. See ya around.

I think you are absolutely correct. Daoist writings say nothing if not that the sage is simple, ordinary, and unconcerned with status and station. Enlightenment is not about being in a position that is approved by or admired by society. It is not about monetary success. I also think it's possible that your awakening can result from interacting with someone at McDonald's who causes something in you to stir, to wake up. And that person may have no idea what they did to cause that in you and it may be completely unintentional and they might not be a master of anything. Furthermore, one does not need to be a master of any particular discipline (Daoism, Buddhism,...) to be fully awakened (enlightened). At least, that's my opinion.

I don't think anyone wants to stop you, I certainly don't. Many have said that explicitly already. They are just responding to your provocations and damnations. The only energy I feel in your posts is that of extreme fear, uncertainty, insecurity, and dissatisfaction. Things that are part of the human condition. Things that affect all of us. Your intensity of desire for a better life certainly comes through loud and clear. Good luck with your trip and studies in the Himalayas. I look forward to hearing about your experiences and progress if you are able to or interested in communicating with us when you are there or after you return.

RAOTFLMFAO Thank you for that

Your comments about Manitou's relationship are just a reflection of your ignorance and lack of life experience. Often, the only people who can understand and support each other are those who have experienced similar trauma. That is why there are support groups for traumatic experiences (veterans, rape, murder, PTSD, cancer, depression, addiction, and on and on...). A non-addict can never understand the pain and suffering of an addict fully, hence they usually are unable to ride out the hellish ups and downs associated with living with a recovering addict. Recovering addicts are generally the best support possible for each other. That is fact, your opinion and my opinion don't matter.

No one needs to say it, all you need to do is open your eyes and mind and heart. The Tao is not something that you or anyone else defines with words or opinions. The Tao is that which is, all around us and inside us, always. Your desire to hide from your heart, society, and the opposite (or same) gender is also part of the Tao but does not cause money, sex, marriage, career, family, children, etc... to cease to be a part of it. If those things were not part of the Tao, you would not exist, nor any of us. You need to get out of your mind and into your life a little, if you can't see this already.

I look at attachment as having a quality of identifying with, linking one's happiness or fulfillment to the outcome. Dedication can be present, a conscious decision to remain focused and involved, without linking it to one's happiness. In this way, attachment and dedication are different for me. I think the Dalai Lama is both dedicated and attached. He is human after all. I think all humans have attachments. Some try to recognize and let them go, others don't. They are never gone entirely, IMO, just more subtle, less consuming, or better hidden. Please do not live your life according to my expectations or standards. I've never asked you to do that intentionally, and if I have done so unintentionally, please forgive me and disregard that message. It is never selfish for me to live my life exactly as I see fit. Selfishness arises when I expect others to live their lives as I see fit. My responses to your posts have mostly been with the intention of helping you to see aspects that you may have overlooked or not yet seen. Furthermore, your comments or the way in which they are delivered have the distinct quality of communicating to others that they should be living their lives according to your expectations and standards. I am simply sharing alternative perspectives to this. You have a telling way of projecting your dissatisfaction with self toward others. It is very clear in your posts. You have been telling everyone on this forum, in a relatively abrupt and rude manner, that their ways are crap and yours is the only way. Now you tell me that you shouldn't live your life according to my expectations when I never suggested that you do so. Can you see what's going on there? The first step on the path to cultivation, enlightenment, whatever word you like, is to look carefully at yourself. This can be done anywhere - India, Tibet, New York, prison, it doesn't matter. You're not doing that work at all yet, you're just looking outside yourself. Trying to find the best system, guru, place to learn. All that is fluff. Wherever you end up, with whatever guru or method, you will ultimately be faced with the task of looking deeply at yourself and getting to know what you/that is. "I can think. I can wait. I can fast." Siddhartha by Hesse

If all is impermanent, then realization is impermanent. If any realization is permanent, then ALL is not impermanent. This is the trap - to believe Buddhahood to be the one permanent thing, Buddhists cling to a goal of attaining it. Even that must be let go for us to approach liberation. I think this is addressed by the koan - If you see the Buddha in the road KILL HIM! Now I'm not a Buddhist, mind you, and I'm not at all well versed in scripture and doctrine and metaphysical debate so you can argue circles around me. But I believe this is a critical and subtle attachment that many Buddhists get stuck on. And I don't mean to imply that you are stuck on it because I really don't know you at all, but I think many are.

Nicely said

You're right, even Buddhahood is illusory, if it's all impermanent, its ALL impermanent. That's the irony. But it is still worth the game because its not about the end. Its not about whether things last or not. Its about the fact they are now. Life is now. Living is now and now is eternal. It is always now, never tomorrow and never yesterday. So you live forever if you live NOW. To use Alan Watts' beautiful analogy, you don't go to the symphony just to hear the final chord. You go to listen to the music, each note and the transition to the next. Its about the rhythm and the intervals, not the notes. Another great story - Once, Mullah Nasruddin bought a violin. And he began to play. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... Same note, same string, over and over. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... After a few hours his wife was at her wits' end. "Nasruddin!" she screamed. NEEE.. Nasruddin put down the bow. "Yes dear?" "Why do you play the same note? It's driving me crazy! All the real violin players move their fingers up and down, play on different strings! Why don't you play like they do?" "Well dear, I know why they go up and down and try all different strings." "Why is that?" "They're looking for "this" note! And he picked up his bow and resumed his playing. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE....

Some nice comments in this thread - awareness, mindfulness, non-judgement - beautiful stuff.

Amen. Life is precious exactly because of death. Beautiful things like family, children, friendships, lovers, are precious because they will be gone someday. It is the way of things - Taji. If you choose not to live because you fear death, if you choose not to love because you fear loss, what a dreary life you will lead. I feel sorry for you but I do understand. An insulated life in a little safe, padded box doesn't seem like it will be painful or threatening but life is not without pain or loss even for the masters. And why so much talk about the masters anyway? They are themselves, we are ourselves. It is not my goal to become them but to become me! And no one can show me how to be me but me.

Double post

Yeah, I agree there are others (and I'd love to hear some of your group-huggy thoughts, seriously) but I also like to remind myself of the negative reasons as well - otherwise, I might get a big head!