doc benway

Thanks Kate - yup, a small fissure is now forming just above Bai Hui - I thought it was opening due to successful cultivation but methinks it's just cranial swelling... Apech's last post does a pretty good job addressing your questions but I'll add a bit more. 1. I agree that scientific reporting does not consistently and explicitly address the Heisenberg effect and that's for a few reasons - a. in science, something that is a basic principle and universally agreed upon is not restated with each new experiment. It is assumed that everyone recognizes this principle to be in effect and affecting all experimental results - b. To my knowledge we have not really figured out how to deal with the observer influence effect entirely. Depending on experimental design there are some very elegant solutions and in other systems they are just there. The bottom line is, as Apech emphasized, that the scientific method still works and gives reproducible, predictable, measurable, and applicable results. 2. Excellent point and I do think there is a lot of truth there. I see it every day. And in the medical profession, there are very strong measures in place to try and identify any time someone is receiving any financial support from any commercial source. This is disclosed at every gathering of researchers and in every peer reviewed journal. And of course it still has an effect on what people study and the results. We'd be blind and foolish to claim otherwise. Every human being is affected by influence, whether it be external or internal. Money is a potent influence as is prestige, self-expectations, and job security, and so on. I agree with Apech that the majority of scientists are truth seekers and try hard to limit distraction and corruption in their work. Some will always be present and some are very prone to it. Similarly, Daoists and other followers of empiric and experiential methods are equally likely to be affected by external and internal influence. At least in the scientific world it is usually easily recognizable and often measureable as in junk science (Immortal4life is an expert on this) and large scale corruption (ie big Pharm and the US Congress). Sadly, it is often much more harmful in this arena. Daoists and other empiric "scientists" on the other hand, have absolutely no way of measuring, testing, or demonstrating their discoveries in an "objective" fashion - that is, a demonstration that is independently verifiable, reproducible, and having predictive properties as in the requirements of the scientific method. All internal experience could be a product of our imagination or an implant from an alien or communication with spirits, ancestors, immortals, etc... It cannot be verified for or against. It is a gratuitous assertion. If you think that our expectations, hopes, and dreams are not reflected in our internal experience during Daoist meditation (and any other method) then you are kidding yourself. That doesn't mean these experiences are not "real" or valuable but everything we see and experience and cultivate could simply be a product of our expectations - no way to tell yea or nay. My Daoist meditation teacher forbids his students from discussing their progress with each other early in their training for just this reason. This prohibition is loosened as time and skill progresses. And just like in science, Daoist methods produce results, even though the methods have all the weaknesses I mentioned. I couldn't agree with you more on this point. Many of our technological advancements have the ultimate effect of throwing nature out of balance and changing human kind, mostly for the worse, in my opinion. Sure, our lives are easier, we have more food, less disease, live longer, and so on. But is this really human? We are anxious, poisoned, neurotic, and physically weak. We are overfed and underactive. We work ourselves literally to death for a goal that we never quite reach. The earth is so dramatically out of balance that it takes all of our resources to try to maintain this imbalance (ie overpopulation fed by engineered food and water sources which cause further imbalanced overpopulation and so on - a vicious cycle). So I agree with you completely on this point, Taomeow. And many of my colleagues and friends do as well. I think many of us see this and are making positive changes in our lives to address it. It can only be addressed on an individual basis and perhaps some day a critical mass will be reached and real, large scale change will occur. And perhaps not. Our world truly is sick and dying and I don't believe technology can save us. I think it is more likely to destroy itself - an example of nature policing herself and restoring balance. This is why my current favorite quotation comes from Jiddu Krishnamurti and I'll paraphrase it - It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to such a profoundly sick society.

One can be lonely in a room full of friends. One can be completely immune to loneliness without any human contact. No need to bother with imaginary goals. Life is practice. Poetry is practice. That's the secret you may find after spending a few decades in a cave. How much time do you think Chia spends training when he's creating 36 DVD's and writing dozens of books? You're quite entertaining, BOL, thanks for your contributions.

I'm not an -ist of any sort, although my work is in the scientific arena and my philosophy/psychology/cultivation in the Daoist arena. That said, I feel obligated to address the above as I think they mis-characterize Western science and Daoist "science." 1. Science has recognized interdependence and the lack of objectivity since Heisenberg in 1925. This has served as the foundation for Quantum mechanics and some of the most important advancements in the 20th and 21st centuries. Certainly this effect is often intentionally ignored as it is often not significant enough to effect outcomes and results. Pretending there is objectivity, as you assert, is not a limitation in scientific advancement - I think that's pretty clear by the results. On the other hand, I agree in the importance of acknowledging the spirit in my own life but it is not measurable in such a way as to incorporate it in the Western scientific method currently. There are plenty of Western scientists exploring this area, however, such as Amit Goswami, John Hagelin, David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and many others. 2. I think it is inaccurate to say the "science" is on any payroll. Certainly dollars play a critical role in many of those using the scientific method and enormous corruption exists. Nevertheless, the method itself is effective when properly implemented and I think it is unfair to accuse the entire discipline of corruption. There are many people devoting their lives to real scientific inquiry with intentions as pure as the purest Daoist sage. I have worked with many personally. 3. The scientific method is so rigorous that no unifying theory has yet to be found. Nevertheless, the scientific method is damn effective (for better or worse) and that is beyond reasonable challenge. The lack of a unifying theory does not negate the method - to the contrary, it reinforces its validity, consistency, and integrity. The unifying theory in Daoism would not qualify as a theory in terms of the scientific method. It works in the realm of Daoist thought, metaphysics, cultivation, ritual, and so on but is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word. It cannot be submitted to observable and reproducible experimental design therefore it is empiric and experiential. Comparison of Western scientific methods and Daoist methods is meaningless - apples and oranges. In fact, I believe that the universe will forever elude a unifying scientific theory. I don't think that the human mind and it's methods of classification and communication are capable of capturing the nature of reality in an equation. That said, string theory is pretty damn interesting stuff. All that said - I would agree with your co-creation leanings. I respect the power and value of science and I despise how it is exploited for profit and power. I respect the power of Daoist cultivation and investigation (and Buddhist, Christian, and Jewish as well) and I similarly despise how they are exploited for profit and power. The spirit or soul or whatever we call it are real and experiential and cannot be captured by experiment.... yet. That's OK, it doesn't lessen science or the spirit.

BTW, Dune is a magnificent book. Probably the single best sci fi book I've read. The movie was good but doesn't come close to doing it justice. Originally, Alejandro Jodorowsky was going to direct the film but it was canned due to his eccentric approach and the cowardice of his producers. Check out this link for an interesting read - http://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/jodorowsky.asp

Please let me know what you think of Cloud Atlas when you finish it. I'm currently reading The Voice of the Fire by Alan Moore. He's famous for graphic novels (Lost Girls, V for Vendetta, From Hell,...). This is a very cool book (though not sci fi) that starts ~ 6000 BC and marches forward in successive chapters to the present. All stories being set in the region of Northampton, UK. Very good so far.

At the recommendation of a friend, I"m going to drop some of my frequently worn clothes in a pile in front of my house so that my neighbors think I've been taken up!

Seeing the connection of all things can be equivalent to recognizing that all things are illusory in my view. What are "things"? "Things" are defined by boundaries. These boundaries are created by the mind to help it deal with the whole, which is largely incomprehensible and very tough to deal with from a practical point of view. Once the underlying connection is felt, the boundaries no longer exist, and so "things" no longer exist. The thing has no inherent is-ness, it just just that which is defined by a bounary. Same for the self. The question of whether there is any-thing vs no-thing, wave vs partical, DO vs Brahman, and all that is another topic that I feel is ineffable and not worth too much attention. After all, what does it matter? Here we are, we are matter, we are holograph, we are illusion, we are strings, we are God. Just words. We are or we are not, that is indisputable, no need to name it. I think this is a wonderful statement and worthy of emphasis - "At this point in time my own view is that logic and faith(s)--including in the Tao--need to be set aside as soon as practicable in one's developmental process. Rather than believing of disbelieving particular principles or teachings, one needs to learn to suspend both belief and disbelief (at east temporarily) in favor of just becoming available." I would make one comment on it - I think faith is different. To me, faith is the "just becoming available." Most people use faith and belief interchangeably and they are very different. Belief is the hope that the explanation you are attached to (and is not yet verified(able)) is correct. Faith is having the confidence to let go all beliefs and all logic and expectations and being open to what remains as being what it is - the truth, reality, whatever you want to call it. Faith is the courage to let belief go and accept what remains - being available to the truth.

No one can pull you down unless you permit it. Pay attention to how you feel when interacting with others. Why does the behavior of others threaten you? Do you have so little control? So little choice? By focusing so much on practicing something else, somewhere else, at some time in the future, you are wasting so much valuable and precious time and opportunity. You can be starting your practice right here, right now. The future doesn't exist, it's your mind playing games. The nature of the mind is that here and now are never enough, there is always this need for something else, something more. We always need to become something we are not. That's why we have come to dominate the planet - it is a very effective tool. But when it comes to true insight into reality, it is a distraction. If you bother to take the time to look at this very carefully. Look at your thought process, this constant need for something else, something better. See if you can have an insight into this. This is where you will find your answers, whether in a cave in Tibet or at the peak of Hua Shan. The path leads inward, not away.

It is not automatic for me to smile upon eye contact but it's something I've worked on for a while and it's a lot easier now. It allows you to see how deeply guarded some of us can be.

I look at wabi sabi as a quality of beauty that is related to something that is unattainable, removed, distant, mysterious, and so on. It has a bitter-sweet quality. A classic example is the beauty of a remote mountain valley that I can never reach but only imagine and long for.

Wabi sabi - I spent a glorious few days visiting my daughter on the West Coast. Returning home I am filled with the contentment that she is enjoying herself and growing into a wonderful young woman, and I am filled with the profound longing to be with her - to hug her and see her smile.

How can you conform to the nature of God and the universe without first being aware of it? Without being deeply aware of life and yourself. Your closest connection to God is inside, not outside (although, in reality, they are the same, inside is just easier to feel, hence all of the meditative techniques including prayer among the spiritual disciplines). "To Love thy God with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself." Beautiful quotes - the first part is from the daily Jewish prayer book and originates in Deuteronomy - way before Jesus. The second part - Love thy neighbor, is from Leviticus, also long before Jesus. I would bet these same sentiments pre-date Judaism as well. This stuff is very basic and inherent in all of the great traditions. Awareness is not an end result or an achievement or even a state of being, it is an activity, a practice. Awareness is to pay attention with your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, fingers, heart, and consciousness to everything that is in you and everything that is around you. Pay close and diligent attention. Watch your relationships. Watch your behavior and your thoughts and feelings. How you react to others and situations. To understand yourself and your relationship to others. To say that I am using circular logic is a ridiculous and gratuitous assertion. I simply never thought it necessary to spell out what awareness means - sorry about that. I assumed that everyone participating in our discussion understands what awareness means - my error. Now, since we are talking about methods, how does one follow the nature of God and how does one follow the nature of the universe? How does one know the nature of God and the universe to follow it? Do you know the nature of God and the universe in order to follow them? If we are being honest, you will answer that this way is defined in a book, in words. Not possible. The nature of the universe and the nature of God can never be captured in words - that's just human ignorance and arrogance. Only one way - to be AWARE. That is the first step (and really the only necessary step). What is love? Define it for me please. You still have not defined your terms: soul back of the image, image, Love principle, and so on. How can there be love without awareness? How can I love my neighbor if I am not aware of him and aware of our relationship? That would be a superficial love indeed. It's easy to say, I love, but you must feel it. To love without awareness would be forced and artificial and insincere indeed. True love only arises when we are fully aware of our interconnection and interdependence with others. This cannot occur in un-awareness. And when that awareness is present, love arises naturally and effortlessly. I agree with you that there are keys to the truth in the Christian scriptures (and the Jewish, Islamic, Daoist, Buddhist,... as well). On the other hand, I think that you need to look at it differently. You're too wrapped up in belief in keywords and phrases. It doesn't help. You need to look at reality, not a book. It will take a while but with patience you will see the truth. Then there is no need any more to believe because you will know. The ultimate goal is to see and feel the truth. The connection of all things. Their relationship to God (if you like to use those particular 3 letters of the English alphabet). You cannot do this without being aware. Yes, you need to find love but you will never understand love without awareness, you will only be using empty words and concepts. Why is it that so many of us are trying so hard to discuss this with you when you are so clearly set on your path? It shows that we love and would like to help. But is it really our place to do so? I wonder about that sometimes. As always, peace and good luck on your path.

Not quite but close - we are already God. We do not become God through awareness. We just wake up and recognize the truth. There is no "Way" to God because we are all, always, already there. We just need to wake up. How could it possibly be otherwise? You use too many words as their own definition. "The Way" is a very ambiguous statement. Every method can be considered "the Way" from the perspective of the person adhering to it. We could have a more satisfying debate if you would define your terms.

You know very little about most folks in the world. Why feel shame for the behavior of others? Why feel shame for your assumptions of the behavior of others? Who are you really feeling shame for? Those same questions will be with you here and in the Himalayas. If you need to be that far removed from money and women to concentrate on your development, that is fine. Know that if you ever return, money and women will be waiting for you and still need reconciliation. The real challenge is working on yourself in the face of your desires and vices. Much easier to cultivate in a vacuum. Good luck in your cultivation.

I think your insight is right on - other folks in our lives frequently internalize any displeasure they perceive in us and attribute it to their own behavior. They are addicted to approval, as are we all, and they are frightened and insecure. In the workplace I imagine this might be a big issue. I think that if you can connect with your heart center or chakra or whatever you like to call it and share love with this person every time they seem threatened, the problem should go away. Regarding your comments on "working" on this stuff, it's very close to my heart. Rant on - you've been warned! I've been closely studying my feelings and behavior and thought processes and where they come from for quite some time. I've looked deeply at how others affect how I feel and what that really says about me, ultimately - not about them. Because the feeling is in me, not outside of me in reality. Another person in my position could react and feel completely differently under the exact same circumstances. And the issue comes up - is it worth it to work on myself when other folks are still going to be themselves (for better or worse) and probably not do similar work? They will still be afraid and insecure and robotic and spiteful and defensive and so on. The answer I've come up with is a resounding - yes. Even more important for me to do this work if the other won't change. The reason being that my reaction to other people is completely within me and a skillful and aware life is one in which I am not a monkey on a leash dancing to the whims of others. Someone tells me I look nice or smell nice or compliments my country or beliefs and I am thrilled, I'm happy. Because I'm getting my fix of my drug - approval. A moment later someone else tells me I look fat or I'm lazy or they don't like my clothes and I'm angry or sad or embarrassed - I'm denied my drug and I'm in agony! What a way to live!!! Might as well be trained circus animal or a robot or a slave. When I develop the awareness of this stuff to the point that other people can't hurt me, it doesn't really matter if they are working on themselves or not. They may continue on with their business and I am untouched. They can yell and scream and insult and slap me and I can open my heart and make space for their pain and hatred and foolishness and I can smile to myself in the knowledge that we are the same. Under different circumstances I may have acted exactly like them at one point. Their words can't touch me unless I permit it, buy into their view and identify with it. I know I'm an ass already, I do stupid stuff, I hurt people at times because I'm not aware enough of what I'm doing or saying and so on. So if they call me names, it is not anything I haven't already recognized in myself. And once I make this change, every relationship I have changes, no way around it. If I am centered and at peace and undisturbed, the relationship must be different than when I was unbalanced and edgy and insecure and defensive. So if I change, they will change. It may be very subtle but they will feel it eventually. And it's hard work that goes on and on and I don't know if it will ever be automatic or easy but it is easier now than it once was. And it's extremely effective. Now, I'm not calling you names or trying to be hurtful or insulting (and if I am, it is your choice to identify yourself with my words and get upset or recognize it for what it is - words and hot air from a stranger who knows nothing more than anyone else, and just chuckle and tell me to buzz off). But I am sharing some stuff I've learned that works for me and has helped me to deal with some really traumatic and challenging stuff in some of the relationships in my life and in my work. I don't think there is any more important work to be done in life than this. What is a relationship? What are the boundaries? How do I react to others? What does that teach me about myself and how much do I allow others to affect my emotional and psychological life? And if I can come fully awake and not be a slave to the whims and foolishness and approval of others, then I am completely liberated. That is what the sage is and what is so utterly frightening to authority that the current pope outlawed all of the writings of Anthony Demello as heresy. That's why so much bullshit is layered over the Christian scriptures and Buddha's message. Because authority fears freedom. When every one of us is liberated who can control us? Rant off, like I said, this stuff is close to my heart. I almost deleted all this just now but F- it. I'll go ahead and post it anyway. I know I sound like a broken record and that's OK, it's pretty close to the truth!

And he realized that asceticism and sacrifice were not the way for him. Perhaps it is the correct path for you currently. Nevertheless, Buddha recognized the error of that path for him and instead advocated the middle way. And you are certainly welcome to flaunt that belief on this forum, as far as I'm concerned, if it helps you in some way to reinforce your courage and conviction. Why are you so concerned with how many others share your belief?

Ban on reincarnation? Long overdue. We're all entitled to end the cycle by now.

It seems like there is some underlying current or an imbalance in the relationships you describe. Someone seems to be taking more license with intimacy with you than you are willing to share. Are they getting inconsistent or unintentional messages from you? Are they simply being overly aggressive? I would look at the relationship and look at your own reaction to the relationship closely.

I have a friend with a German name from Argentina. I went to his birthday party at his parents' house several years ago. His father was drunk, recognized that I was a Jew, pulled me aside into a private room and began confessing to me his sins as a German soldier involved in genocide in WWII. He didn't share too many details but it was clear that he spent time working in an extermination camp. It was a very surreal and terrifying experience for me, listening to this old man confess his complicity when many of my family was killed in Europe in WWII in pogroms and camps. I listened for a while and simply told him that I was not in a position to forgive him or absolve him of his guilt. My friend is a beautiful person with very strong moral and ethical character. Could he have committed the sins of his father? Given the right set of circumstances, I do not doubt it.

I didn't mean to dismiss or criticize laughter or humor. When something feels humorous to me, I laugh. When something feels horrific and sad, I cry. Laughter is only healing and healthy for me when spontaneous. For me to laugh at Otis' OP would have been forced and unnatural. In fact, i've rarely, if ever, seen humor in matters related to Naziism or other examples of genocide. Most likely due to my Jewish background and genealogy. That doesn't mean that I feel other people should not, but I am sensitive to it. One exception for me was the film - Life is Beautiful by Roberto Benigni. I laughed, I cried, I fell in love with that film. On the other hand, laughter at such horrific activity alone, in and of itself, is unlikely to allow the practitioner to fully investigate and reconcile all of the complex feelings and thoughts that are associated with it. Otis' OP seemed to indicate a great deal of pain, suffering, and struggle associated with internalizing this. Several subsequent posts began to explore humorous aspects and those of our community who were open to humor and laughter certainly had the opportunity to take advantage of the approach. I acknowledge your efforts (and that of others) to help bring the healing effects of humor to the table. To me, it felt like there was still a need to explore the topic with a more serious approach. I didn't intend to be critical of those who would find solace and reconciliation through laughter. Unfortunately, this path was not mine to take at the time, or now, so I explored a different approach. I think that both approaches have validity. My choice to approach the topic more seriously and support Otis and Ralis' serious treatment of the subject does not necessarily mean that I dismiss or fail to recognize the value of laughter. That all said, this isn't the first time I've been criticized for being too serious! I'd be foolish not to learn something from this. Thanks cat

The answer does not lie in one region or another. The answer does not lie in a guru or master. The answer lies in you, right where you are, right now.

I like this very much. Thanks for sharing it.