doc benway

It's funny how we can talk ourselves into and out of just about anything. You and I know how harmful and wasteful intoxication is and we know how beneficial regular training is. Why do we make good decisions some days and bad decisions other days? I guess it's what we want. I do think it's important to forgive yourself but it's equally important to be honest with yourself. That's the only was out.

I think this is a very important part of any self inquiry that will lead to awakening. I think your approach is very skillful and will yield great benefits for you. How can you really know the world around you? Only through your own experience. And everything that you experience is filtered through your images and assumptions created by your previous experience (memory) and conditioning. The only way to have clarity, is to see through all of this. Otherwise you are looking at the world through colored lenses. There are different ways to look at this stuff. Here is my bias. Anything you feel is there in you somewhere and whether it is pleasant or unpleasant, good or bad, profound or superficial, it's a part of your make-up. Good and bad are simply value judgements that are also an artifact of conditioning. The more you are aware of what you are feeling and how emotions come up in reaction to things, the better. Any attempt to supress or disregard feelings simply ignores that part of your reality. The more you supress or ignore the bad stuff (or the good stuff, for that matter), the stronger it will get. More extreme fluctuation results. Acknowledgeing and accepting what you are feeling takes it's power away. Any time you feel something bad, go into it directly and completely. It will disappear like smoke eventually. It's not important how long it takes. Same with the good. If you disregard or supress it, it does not go away. It's still in there and it strengthens. It is a simple reflection of Tai Ji - you feel good for a while, you feel bad for a while. Ultimately those feelings balance. If you are worried about attention adding strength to the bad feelings, don't. It is not the feelings that are bad, it is what you choose to do in relation to those feelings. Simply accept the feelings (I assure you that you can't change them or make them disappear) and then choose to act based on what is important to you - your values. To me, this is living in accordance with Wu Wei. I think people who try to control their thoughts misunderstand the guidance given by the mystics (Buddha included). Watering the good seeds refers to deeds, not thoughts. The thoughts will come and go until the nature of thought is seen through, then even the thoughts loose their power. It's going to take much longer than a week but you have struck a goldmine here, IMO. Good luck! My good friend who has extensive exprience in meditation and related practices has also just recommended these books to me... I'll have to check them out.

There is only one way that I know of to make an attempt to answer such questions. That is to ask both you and myself - "who is it that wants to know?" Good luck

I heard it was so intense, all the cards on the table burst into flames and the chips melted. Good one ThatGuy!

I'm really surprised to hear you say that. I'm not being trite or disingenuous in the least! Don't you see any value in Zen/Chan? In Tantra? In Dao? Spontaneous laughter is one of the few reflections of our true nature, as is sexual orgasm. How much more real does it get? These things are sacred, not at all trite. They are just taken for granted because there must be something more to all of this! Sorry - this is it. If I provide alternative perspectives that means I'm asleep? You're probably right about that - perhaps I'll wake up one day, perhaps not. But if I'm asleep, why do I always feel so tired? All relationships are sacred - it doesn't need to have anything to do with the thoughts and concepts that you gratuitously call "spiritual" and "transcendant". Relationships can remain sacred with or without the presence of money. Money only controls you if you let it. You do - FWIW - I know better than most what the profit motive has done to American healthcare and I agree with you 100% that it's not ok as evidenced by most earlier post.

I know how you feel. Even though I know that my "way" is "right," it is only right for me. Stuart Wilde is an author who helped me to recognize that we all need different things at different times on our path. Sometimes we need pain and suffering to help us get to another level of understanding. Demello says it very well when talking about his own ethical dilemma between acting as a "spirtiual advisor" vs psychotherapist. As a therapist, it is his job to ease pain and suffering. On the other hand, as a spiritual advisor, he recognizes that spiritual growth cannot be forced or even induced and often comes only as a result of tragedy, trauma, or significant pain. So to ease the pain may prevent growth. I rarely speak to folks about my own spiritual path and beliefs anymore but I do try to offer compassion and assistance when I can. Good luck with this!

Interesting points GIH. I have a few perspectives that differ a bit for the sake of discussion. 1. Why do we take matters of the sacred and spiritual so seriously? Are these things not entertainment? Most people use entertainment to distract them from the pain of daily living, from boredom, and so on. Why do most folks investigate the sacred and the spiritual? For the same reasons - we are always looking for something different, better, more, looking to relieve the pain and suffering of life. We're conditioned to take sacred and spiritual things seriously but nothing brings you closer to liberation than a good, healthy laugh (or orgasm)! These things are fiction - constructs of the mind to try and explain things that cannot be explained. I think we would live in a better world if the sacred and spiritual arenas didn't take themselves so seriously. 2. Why should we not charge for sacred and spiritual information and direction if these things are felt to enhance and improve life? Why should I not expect to pay for such a service? If someone spends their life mastering a technique or approach that others want to emulate, I think it's very reasonable for them to choose a fair price to charge. 3. Why is it OK for us to charge for health care? Isn't this the one thing that should be freely available to all? If there was anything that should be free and readily available, I would choose health care. Or food, or shelter. These are the necessities of life that I would like to see guaranteed to all. To me, things of a spiritual and sacred nature are accessories, luxuries, completely unessential. Distractions for people who don't need to spend most of their time securing food, shelter, and security for their families. 4. As mentioned already, people generally value things based on what they have invested. In the US, things are generally valued based on a monetary equivalent. This is unfortunate but unavoidable. We have come to confuse money with wealth. If I charge 3 people $3000 up front for a course in Daoist meditation and another group nothing - which group do you think would still be practicing in 3 years. I would place a bet on that outcome! There are lots of other points for discussion but these jumped out at me. And some of these points may be slightly exaggerated for effect. I think this topic has no real answer other than it is ultimately an individual decision for each of us to make.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone! One just can't have too many holydays to celebrate.

Most of my practice focuses on the martial aspects of taijiquan and meditation. I practice shiba luohan qigong mostly from the perspective of martial development. This weekend was a real eye opener for me! I was nursing a bad cold last week that settled in my chest (due to my asthma) and I had to shovel ~ 2 feet of snow over the weekend from the driveway and sidewalks. I have some chronic neck and back issues from prior injuries and expected to be miserable. Before and after each round of shoveling (twice on Saturday and once on Sunday), I practiced our version of the Eight Brocades. My teacher calls it Gu Chuan Ba Duan Jin - the ancient teaching of the Eight Brocades, and it's a little different than what I usually see others doing as the 8. Nevertheless, I was amazed at how effective it was. I expected to be much more sore and exhausted but it really helped a great deal. I felt so good on Sunday that I invited my training partner over and we worked out pretty hard. I now plan to add a more serious consideration of Qigong for health and wellness to my regular routine. I know I'm preaching to the choir and I should have realized this long ago but better late than never!

My teacher generally teaches Qigong in seminar format and leaves it up to us to figure out what we want to do with it. He shows us healing and martial aspects of the various routines and we take what we choose/need. I've just been neglecting the healing side of things for way too long! I'm older than I think....

~ Last question first - excellent question - My answer may seem trite and overly simple but consider the source! (me, Stig, not you) Breath is life - it is the source of nutrients for our physical being and our awareness. Neither are possible without it. The healthier and clearer our awareness and physical being are, the closer in tune they become. Furthermore, breath and breathing are a wonderful source of focus for awareness for multiple reasons. Given that breathing is equally volitional and subconscious, it is a great vehicle for developing insight into the differences (are there any?) between volitional and non-volitional behaviors. Also, focusing on the breath is the easiest and most basic process where that overlap between awareness and physical being occurs. Hence, most meditative practices beginning with the breath. These are just some rudimentary answers and I'm sure we could get much deeper into it with time. More evidence to support where my ideas have come from (please note that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just showing my line of thought). All of the practices that help us to 'cultivate Qi' are practices that help us to integrate, strenthen, and sensitize us to that overlap of awareness of physical being. So this is why the Taijiquan forms are mostly practiced very slowly and mindfully. Same with Qigong and same with Daoist neigong. ~ The other two questions are concerned with cooking and rice and so forth. I'm not sure how productive that inquiry will be. Here is a critical point to consider. The character 氣 really refers more to the air we breath and less to the Qi it contains. If you look into the more esoteric Daoist writings and Daoist charms, you will find another character. It is archaic and difficult to find in modern use but the original character used by the Daoists for Qi (which is contained in 氣) can be found here. http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/...amp;mode=pinyin It may be interesting for you to look at that character etymologically, Stig. I can't find a version of it that I can easily cut and paste here.

I voted outdoors but I'll qualify that. Much of our Qi cultivation is derived from the air we breath. The more pure the air, the better. Most modern houses are constructed with enough insulation to impair air exchange so air inside is often stale or contaminated with pet dander, molds, etc... So I think outside is better in general, particularly if you train early in the morning when the air is freshest or in an area with good air quality. Psychologically, I also get alot of benefit from being closer to nature when in train. If you live in an area like LA, you may be better off inside where the air is better filtered on days of poor air quality. Meditation is a bit different. If you are in deep meditation, it's hazardous to be startled or interrupted and that's a lot easier to control indoors. That's why caves were so important in advanced cultivation.

My interpretation/experience of Qi would probably be closer to Lin Ai Wei's definition. I've described it in boring detail in previous threads over the past few years and will only very briefly summarize. I don't believe Qi to be energy in the normal Western sense of the word (the amount of work that can be performed by a force) nor do I experience it as stuff. In fact, there is no stuff in the universe but that's for another discussion. My current feeling is that Qi is a process or rather an interaction between awareness and physical being. In this sense, my definition of cultivating or building Qi has more to do with becoming sensitive than storing something as if it were a substance in a container. I know that goes against the grain but that's just my personal experience based on cultivation and where I'm at in my own mind and body.

I knew what you meant Just making the point that there is enormous untapped potential in the human body. We all control our intercostals every day of our lives but with proper training, we can learn to do amazing things! I think we agree more than we disagree. I really enjoyed both of your posts Sundragon.

Anyone have an opinion on the value of attending a Vipassana retreat? I'm thinking of doing it. My primary practice is Daoist meditation but I feel that an intensive retreat experience might be beneficial even if I don't choose to focus on Vipassana practice long term. Any advice?

Me too - I'm a surgeon. I routinely deal with human insides. A human's liver cannot move that far, period. It's that simple. I don't care how much or what they cultivate. You simply made an assumption based on available information but your conclusion is inaccurate. Once the liver edge has retracted under the lower ribs, there is nothing about it that can be seen with the eyes or even felt with the hands but, believe me or not, it can't move very far into the chest. The rest of your observations are correct - the cranial sutures are fibrous, not bone, but they don't move much. The intercostal muscles are skeletal muscle and all skeletal muscle is under voluntary control. We use them actively with every deep breath we take. With proper training, I imagine they could be controlled quite expertly.

This is difficult stuff. One possibility is communication. Tell your family how much you love them (individually or in small groups is probably easier). Let them know how painful their behavior is for you. Be firm, specific, consistent, and compassionate. Be prepared for defensive behavior. Nothing may change right away. When they return to the unpleasant behavior, remind them of how it makes you feel. Over time, they just may care enough to be more sensitive to how their behavior makes you feel. Good luck.

I've practiced iron palm with a teacher. I would not recommend trying it without a teacher unless you have an extensive background in martial arts and some knowledge of TCM. Even then I believe you are risking injury to try and learn this art from a book or video. Just my $.02.

With all due respect (and I do respect you a great deal Taomeow), the liver cannot physically move up into the armpit during life. This is exactly one of the values of a knowledge of anatomy as Little1 advocates and one of the points I tried to make in my wordy post - it is one thing I know fairly well. The liver can't move more than a few inches without tearing the hepatic plexus, bile duct, and portal vein which would be quickly fatal. The right lung is not capable of collapsing far enough for the liver to move up that far into the chest and the diaphragm is not flexible enough to allow that. Nearly all of the liver is hidden by the rib cage and it extends well into the back. It takes a lot of abdominal relaxation and a deep breath for a physician to even feel the edge of the liver in a patient (unless its swollen by disease or the patient is cachectic). So he only has to relax the diaphragm and tighten the abdominal muscles to suck the liver back and up a bit where you can't feel it at all. But no where near the armpit. The kidneys are similarly restricted in how far their vascular and neurological pedicles will allow them to move. His feat was not quite as dramatic as you describe though I don't doubt that he has a level of physical control that most folks will never enjoy. I guess I just disproved my own point!

All good points. I do not disagree with any of them.

All forms of mysticism are fundamentally the same, IMO. They are all efforts of the human mind to comprehend and merge with the ineffable. All have their own flavor based on ethnology, sociology, culture, geography, and so on. When you let all of the paths and practices and concepts and rituals fall away, the same truth remains. I was never much interested in Western mysticism but after studying the works of Anthony Demello, I believe that the Catholic mystical tradition has validity. He was undoubtedly enlightened, at least as far as my definition is concerned, and trained in the Jesuit tradition. Although he was born in India and was undoubtedly influenced by the Hindu faith. Learning this helped me to really and deeply respect the Jesuit tradition, probably for the first time in my life. Ironically, I soon found out that Joseph Ratzinger (who some of you will recognize is currently pope) condemned Demello's writings as heretical while holding the position of Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for the church. Please note that the CDF is the modern name for the office that was original called the Holy Office of the Inquisition. Here is a quotation from his declaration - "But already in certain passages in [his] early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. ... With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm" And so it goes.... Individuals have the hope of awakening, not institutions.

A few thoughts that may or may not help - You don't 'get' Daoism and you don't become a part of it - you already are it. I think Dao (Tao) has many meanings - it can mean the way as in the path you tread during life, it can also mean the way as the way things are in the universe. It intentionally connotes motion rather than stasis because it recognizes that existence is process and change, rather than form and stuff. It can imply the way one may choose to lead their life to be successful or content. It can mean the way to immortality. Daoism is extremely complex because it contains elements of shamanism, indigenous religions, sociology, politics, Confucianism, Buddhism, magic, medicine, spirituality, philosophy and on and on... A few basic ideas in Daoism from my perspective are - - Don't try to understand everything intellectually, rather begin to live it and allow yourself to understand as much by doing as by studying. This is one reason why things like meditation, Qigong, and Taijiquan are valuable to begin practicing if you are genuinely interested in Daoism. - Understand that there is a natural way of things and struggling against your nature (by that I mean not just you but the nature of all things) is counterproductive. It wastes energy and resources and ultimately gets you nowhere. Learn to feel the natural way of things and go with rather than against the current. That is called Wu Wei. This awareness is also facilitated by practice rather than study. - Recognize the balance of forces in the universe. This principle is called Tai Ji. It basically states that existence is a consequence of balance - for every front (yang) there is a back (yin), dark (yin) goes with light (yang), up with down, beauty with ugliness, pain with pleasure, happiness with sorrow, and so on... Another way of stating this is the concept of mutual arising - the only way I can know happiness is in contrast to sadness, they define eachother. If I were happy every day of my life, I would not recognize it as such and it would be meaningless. This applies to all things. If every face you ever saw was beautiful, beauty would be meaningless. It is only in comparison to a less attractive face, that a beautiful face has meaning. This is the meaning of the Zhuangzi parable - when the shoes fits, the foot is forgotten; when the belt fits, the waist is forgotten. This concept is extremely valuable and significant and has endless consequences when understood. This is the foundation for the martial art of Tai Ji Quan. There are many other concepts that others may choose to comment on - these are the few core elements that are most fundamental and important to me. Daoism is a very rich and complex thing. It is full of treasures and has its share of chaff as well. I don't consider myself a Daoist but I practice Daoist cultivation and it is the closest thing, along with Buddhism, to my own system of values and philosophy. The book that opened my eyes to its inner meanings was : When the Shoe Fits: Commentaries on the Taoist Mystic Chuang Tzu by Osho. It is full of Osho's ideas, which are quite fundamentally Daoist, but also helped me to begin to understand the much more archaic language of the Daoist classics which had me totally bored and stymied in the beginning. The other readings that I find to be utterly Daoist from the perspective of experiential rather than intellectual are the works of Jiddu Krishnamurti. A great starting point is a book called To Be Human. Many would object that these are not Daoist but, IMO, his work cuts directly to the heart and soul of the Dao. Alan Watts also wrote some good stuff on Daoism that is very accessible to the Western reader. Good luck on your path!

I missed this thread the first time around - thanks for bumping it, Little1. In my professional life, all of the sciences you mention are of critical significance and that is my primary paradigm. One the other hand, I voted not very important. I believe that the paradigm of TCM, IMA, and Daoist practices is sufficiently self-contained and independent of the Western scientific paradigm, that a knowledge of the sciences you list is not necessary and may even be a hinderance to the student. Yup, I am a scientist and I said that. In my own practice, I find my knowledge of anatomy and physiology has been, at times, a hinderance. The "organs" of TCM and the major meridians and so forth do not correspond to anatomic structures or physiologic processes on the whole. Certainly we could sit down and find parallels and work out a system of how they each enhance our understanding of the underlying truth but they are very different. As a result, I have often found myself forcing a suspension of disbelief when trying to internalize certain ideas or practices. I find myself doubting some of my teacher's explanations and assurances, and so on. I won't go into specifics for the sake of time but it really is a pervasive experience for me. On the other hand, over the years I have developed the ability to have a foot in each camp, as it were. And although it was a struggle, it was absolutely worth it. I now feel that my knowledge and experience in the two paradigms has been more than the sum of the two parts. I am completely comfortable in the Western scientific world and yet I see it's weaknesses and failings, in part due to my Eastern training. I am very comfortable in the Eastern paradigm and yet I can easily see where it often exceeds its boundaries with gratuitous assertions and explanations that are acceptable to the mind in this paradigm due to a host of factors, such as - the Eastern student is much less likely to question or challenge the teacher than a Westerner, the mind that is accustomed to an experiential and empiric approach is much more open to accepting certain explanations without "proof" compared to the Western mind influenced by the scientific method, and so forth. In the end, I'm very lucky to have had good training in Western and Eastern methods and I feel that the combination is extremely valuable and greater than the sum of its parts. But to answer the original question - I do not think that the scientific knowledge is necessary or even especially valuable in the beginning and intermediate student of Eastern methods. In the martial arts world, I feel that it is easier and more advantageous for the student to focus on one discipline until a level of proficiency is reached before adding other, disparate influences. Similarly, I think it is "better" for the student of Eastern methods to develop a substantial proficiency before confusing themselves with an entirely different paradigm. Once a certain level of expertise is reached, then I think it's very valuable to "cross train" in anatomic and physiologic knowledge. Then again - it's probably fine to learn both from the beginning. And I agree with Sloppy... Science rocks! And Daoists roll!

There's quite a bit of Wang Shu Jin on youtube and Chen Pan Ling too. Here is some Bagua TgSPsiQhAZk and some Taiji and Xingyi CGjE-zM9MqE&NR=1