doc benway

All good and true points, Gold. I appreciate your response and all others as well. I've considered the meditation vacation option very seriously. A few retreat advantages - - free (Goenke Vipassana at least) or inexpensive (a place like Dharma Drum) - structured - perhaps I would create my own structured retreat environment on a 'meditation vacation' but that would take planning and effort and may or may not come to fruition - room and board with healthy environs and veggie meals - I could do this on my own with some effort - fellow participants help to create an environment conducive to the cause and double as 'sitters' - and as you say, the retreat receipt validates the purpose of the experience with the family - there is no way I could carry this off at home - way too hectic and demanding lifestyle that is unlikely to change in the near future

I don't like the book. I practice with a teacher and find the book to smell of too much theory and reproduction of misleading information. That's just me. I would not recommend trying to develop a practice based on that book.

I appreciate your candor and I will give your points careful consideration. Thank you

That's what I was looking at. Touche!

Don't recall where I read or heard this but I like it... Belief is the fervent hope that something that cannot be confirmed is true. Faith is the confidence that truth is what remains when all belief is abandoned. ....or something like that. Most people who speak of faith (ie faith in God or, not to pick on the Nagarjunists, but - in a concept like dependent origination) are simply speaking of belief. Can they let go of their image and belief system entirely and know that the truth is what will remain? One cannot have faith in a concept or idea - faith is being able to let it go. Just finished shoveling the driveway for the second time today. 2 feet of snow on the ground so far and no end in sight... why not wax philosophical?

What a fabulous coincidence! I have the opportunity to observe myself in such a situation yet again. First, I replied concisely and directly. Then, I attempted to disengage with humor. Next, I yielded with a mildly derisive comment. Finally, I laid out my feelings about the whole affair and intend to let it go but who really knows where it will go from here. I never quite know what I'm going to say next. Taomeow, I'm beginning to believe that you may actually have some 'subtle' power! :shudder:

Married with kids (they're old enough to be pretty self-sufficient). My wife wouldn't love the idea of me being away for 10 days and it's not her thing. I feel the calling of a period of silence and contemplation - very tough to do in my daily life. Thanks for those perspectives. My main interest is the silent retreat experience. Whether the teachers have something to offer or not doesn't concern me as much, although I would wager that I can learn something from just about anyone in a position of guiding at a retreat, provided I can simply be open enough. That alone would be a valuable lesson, I think.

Your reply to my first post simply contradicted everything I said yet it was all gratuitous. When I made an effort to clarify, more of the same - all contradiction with no real foundation. "Are you human?" "Desiring is not the root of suffering... " "In fact, there is no such thing as acceptance" followed immediately by "acceptance itself is a struggle against what is..." "Wu Wei is not acceptance" :yawn: It reminded me exactly of the Homer Simpson thread, hence my response. There was a time not so long ago when I would commit the time and energy to defending each point and making an effort to convince you of my perspective. It's just not worth it to me currently - it's not where my head is at. Ultimately, I am at fault because of my use of the word "sparring" - bad choice of words on my part. I actually tire of verbal sparring very quickly, lately, so I chose to disengage. I'm not really interested in trying to convince anyone of my point of view. It is only mine - certainly nothing special and probably not terribly valuable to anyone other than myself. Be well

Thank you for the lesson, master. _/\_

Dear Homer, Gratuitous assertions are not terribly interesting. I think this exchange needs to be moved to Taomeow's thread.

I've been through a number of phases regarding my understanding of "why" I post on boards. This is a bit embarrassing but I will share it anyway as I think it is an opportunity for growth. I find myself often concerned with how my own posts read and the responses they stimulate. What does that say about me and my motivation for posting? I won't go into that but it's an eye opener for me.

I can't resists sparring once in a while.... There is no such thing as "human nature." What humans do and feel is their nature. Ignoring this is simply denial. The suffering towards enlightenment is not suffering, but practice. Practice is not/should not be suffering. Wanting/desiring to be something you are not is the nature of suffering. Practice does not yield enlightenment. One does not move towards enlightenment as it is not somewhere one can go to. You ARE inadequate. "I" is perfect. DO NOT accept what you are. Question your values. Acceptance is Wu Wei, acceptance is liberation. Struggle against 'what is' creates violence and suffering. Question everything, understand and, when necessary, refine your values.

I don't know about a Daoist but here's what I would recommend. Breathe

We are human. We think and remember and feel. It is the nature of our sensory apparatus to create the impression of an ego contained within a bag of skin. And the nature of mind is to want to become. Our "success" as a species is the result of the instinct to become something other than what we are currently. As has been said, it is not productive to fight against our nature, that simply reinforces the presence of the one that is struggling and creates suffering. If what you are is not adequate, this means you are attached to an idea of something other. Accept what you are and commit to living your life according to the principles that you value. Everything else will come of its own accord. At least that's where I'm at, FWIW.

Exactly - Herein lies the rub... Who of us really know our bodies and how they will react to a substance never previously ingested? Who knows what substance is being ingested unless you manufacture and measure it personally? Who of us really know our mind completely? The OP is looking for unchartered territory (ego death, first trip, and so on...) so I would wager that he/she does not know their mind at a very deep level. Certainly not enough to predict the effects of LSD. Psychedelics are potentially hazardous, potentially entertaining, and under optimal circumstances can be educational although the price can be very high. Buyer beware and good luck! PS - I would agree that a guided experience with a credible ayahuescero would be far preferable to copping some acid on the streets...

Absolutely. Some random thoughts about forum sparring... One thing that I find really helps me is that I try to use it as an opportunity to learn more about myself. Questions come up like: Why am I posting in the first place? What am I really doing and on whose behalf? Why am I replying and to whom? Why am I reacting in a certain way because somebody doesn't share my perspective or intentionally wants to be argumentative? All great stepping off points for self-investigation. The other thing is that I reached a point where I just don't care that much if anyone agrees with me. In part, it's because I'm not as sure as I used to be that I really "know" anything worth sharing. Whether I tell someone something or not generally does very little for either of us. Allowing the other person to feel like they "won" can sometimes be an act of compassion that makes me feel better than "winning. Interesting topic for discussion, I often find myself observing my forum behavior and I find some interesting things out about myself from this.

Enlightenment is what happened when I realized that I know everything and the rest of you are full of crap. Peace

I agree. I think there is an enormous amount we can learn from our bodies (and minds). We just need to learn how to listen. It's interesting that we have been conditioned to feel that everything important there is to know comes from outside of us. Yet, where are we in more direct, intimate contact with the universe than in our own minds and bodies? To learn about the world around us, there is no better place to look than inside, IMO.

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence - from your posts you are clearly intelligent. It's a matter of how you read him. Read lifeforce's post again (please). That's exactly how it feels to me. To Be Human is a great place to start because it gives you an idea of his unique and precise way of using language and the quality of attention and work you must bring to his material for it to be effective.

With respect, I disagree completely with the second part. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he is one of the few teachers that can teach what it really means to meditate through a book. If you take the time to read his work with the frame of mind that he suggests and do the work yourself as he asks, you will come to understand meditation. Of course, different presentations resonate differently with different individuals, YMMV. It may not resemble what many people imagine when they hear the word meditation, with all the trappings - zafus, robes, bells, sore knees, and so forth; but that is all window dressing. True meditation is a quality of mind, not a pattern of behavior. Personally, I get more from his books than his talks. There's something about his presentation that requires me to read it slowly, pausing frequently to do the work myself in my own mind. It's tough to get this from a recorded talk. This book on the subject of meditation is very insightful. A great starting place for his writings is To Be Human.

One of my favorite authors is famous for saying - "The Truth is a Pathless Land" There is only one truth and there is only one path, it just masquerades as many. The truth is who and what you are and the path is to investigate that very deeply. You've already taken the first step. Good luck on your journey!

I'd suggest mittens if possible, rather than gloves. Mittens allow the fingers to share warmth whereas gloves insulate them from one another and can actually make them feel colder. I'm plagued with cold hands in part due to damage to the ulnar artery in my palms from martial arts practice (too much wooden dummy striking). Mittens work much better for me than gloves.

Unfortunately, none of those locations are anywhere near me. My family is in Florida (~ 4 hours from Miami) so if I can work out a visit, I might be able to hook up with them in Miami. The next best would be Tennessee but that's a long haul. Thanks for the info. Steve That may be true for some but, historically, the majority of high level martial arts instruction was limited to wealthy families that could afford to take the time to train and afford the services of a qualified teacher. The average farmer and peasant didn't have the time to train or the money to pay a teacher and very few teachers in China give/gave away their knowledge to anyone other than immediate family. I think it's worth being aware of that when considering Chinese martial arts.

Nice post Susan - Wishing you success and fulfillment in your unique and joyous practice. _/\_