doc benway

With all due respect (and I do respect you a great deal Taomeow), the liver cannot physically move up into the armpit during life. This is exactly one of the values of a knowledge of anatomy as Little1 advocates and one of the points I tried to make in my wordy post - it is one thing I know fairly well. The liver can't move more than a few inches without tearing the hepatic plexus, bile duct, and portal vein which would be quickly fatal. The right lung is not capable of collapsing far enough for the liver to move up that far into the chest and the diaphragm is not flexible enough to allow that. Nearly all of the liver is hidden by the rib cage and it extends well into the back. It takes a lot of abdominal relaxation and a deep breath for a physician to even feel the edge of the liver in a patient (unless its swollen by disease or the patient is cachectic). So he only has to relax the diaphragm and tighten the abdominal muscles to suck the liver back and up a bit where you can't feel it at all. But no where near the armpit. The kidneys are similarly restricted in how far their vascular and neurological pedicles will allow them to move. His feat was not quite as dramatic as you describe though I don't doubt that he has a level of physical control that most folks will never enjoy. I guess I just disproved my own point!

All good points. I do not disagree with any of them.

All forms of mysticism are fundamentally the same, IMO. They are all efforts of the human mind to comprehend and merge with the ineffable. All have their own flavor based on ethnology, sociology, culture, geography, and so on. When you let all of the paths and practices and concepts and rituals fall away, the same truth remains. I was never much interested in Western mysticism but after studying the works of Anthony Demello, I believe that the Catholic mystical tradition has validity. He was undoubtedly enlightened, at least as far as my definition is concerned, and trained in the Jesuit tradition. Although he was born in India and was undoubtedly influenced by the Hindu faith. Learning this helped me to really and deeply respect the Jesuit tradition, probably for the first time in my life. Ironically, I soon found out that Joseph Ratzinger (who some of you will recognize is currently pope) condemned Demello's writings as heretical while holding the position of Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for the church. Please note that the CDF is the modern name for the office that was original called the Holy Office of the Inquisition. Here is a quotation from his declaration - "But already in certain passages in [his] early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. ... With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm" And so it goes.... Individuals have the hope of awakening, not institutions.

A few thoughts that may or may not help - You don't 'get' Daoism and you don't become a part of it - you already are it. I think Dao (Tao) has many meanings - it can mean the way as in the path you tread during life, it can also mean the way as the way things are in the universe. It intentionally connotes motion rather than stasis because it recognizes that existence is process and change, rather than form and stuff. It can imply the way one may choose to lead their life to be successful or content. It can mean the way to immortality. Daoism is extremely complex because it contains elements of shamanism, indigenous religions, sociology, politics, Confucianism, Buddhism, magic, medicine, spirituality, philosophy and on and on... A few basic ideas in Daoism from my perspective are - - Don't try to understand everything intellectually, rather begin to live it and allow yourself to understand as much by doing as by studying. This is one reason why things like meditation, Qigong, and Taijiquan are valuable to begin practicing if you are genuinely interested in Daoism. - Understand that there is a natural way of things and struggling against your nature (by that I mean not just you but the nature of all things) is counterproductive. It wastes energy and resources and ultimately gets you nowhere. Learn to feel the natural way of things and go with rather than against the current. That is called Wu Wei. This awareness is also facilitated by practice rather than study. - Recognize the balance of forces in the universe. This principle is called Tai Ji. It basically states that existence is a consequence of balance - for every front (yang) there is a back (yin), dark (yin) goes with light (yang), up with down, beauty with ugliness, pain with pleasure, happiness with sorrow, and so on... Another way of stating this is the concept of mutual arising - the only way I can know happiness is in contrast to sadness, they define eachother. If I were happy every day of my life, I would not recognize it as such and it would be meaningless. This applies to all things. If every face you ever saw was beautiful, beauty would be meaningless. It is only in comparison to a less attractive face, that a beautiful face has meaning. This is the meaning of the Zhuangzi parable - when the shoes fits, the foot is forgotten; when the belt fits, the waist is forgotten. This concept is extremely valuable and significant and has endless consequences when understood. This is the foundation for the martial art of Tai Ji Quan. There are many other concepts that others may choose to comment on - these are the few core elements that are most fundamental and important to me. Daoism is a very rich and complex thing. It is full of treasures and has its share of chaff as well. I don't consider myself a Daoist but I practice Daoist cultivation and it is the closest thing, along with Buddhism, to my own system of values and philosophy. The book that opened my eyes to its inner meanings was : When the Shoe Fits: Commentaries on the Taoist Mystic Chuang Tzu by Osho. It is full of Osho's ideas, which are quite fundamentally Daoist, but also helped me to begin to understand the much more archaic language of the Daoist classics which had me totally bored and stymied in the beginning. The other readings that I find to be utterly Daoist from the perspective of experiential rather than intellectual are the works of Jiddu Krishnamurti. A great starting point is a book called To Be Human. Many would object that these are not Daoist but, IMO, his work cuts directly to the heart and soul of the Dao. Alan Watts also wrote some good stuff on Daoism that is very accessible to the Western reader. Good luck on your path!

I missed this thread the first time around - thanks for bumping it, Little1. In my professional life, all of the sciences you mention are of critical significance and that is my primary paradigm. One the other hand, I voted not very important. I believe that the paradigm of TCM, IMA, and Daoist practices is sufficiently self-contained and independent of the Western scientific paradigm, that a knowledge of the sciences you list is not necessary and may even be a hinderance to the student. Yup, I am a scientist and I said that. In my own practice, I find my knowledge of anatomy and physiology has been, at times, a hinderance. The "organs" of TCM and the major meridians and so forth do not correspond to anatomic structures or physiologic processes on the whole. Certainly we could sit down and find parallels and work out a system of how they each enhance our understanding of the underlying truth but they are very different. As a result, I have often found myself forcing a suspension of disbelief when trying to internalize certain ideas or practices. I find myself doubting some of my teacher's explanations and assurances, and so on. I won't go into specifics for the sake of time but it really is a pervasive experience for me. On the other hand, over the years I have developed the ability to have a foot in each camp, as it were. And although it was a struggle, it was absolutely worth it. I now feel that my knowledge and experience in the two paradigms has been more than the sum of the two parts. I am completely comfortable in the Western scientific world and yet I see it's weaknesses and failings, in part due to my Eastern training. I am very comfortable in the Eastern paradigm and yet I can easily see where it often exceeds its boundaries with gratuitous assertions and explanations that are acceptable to the mind in this paradigm due to a host of factors, such as - the Eastern student is much less likely to question or challenge the teacher than a Westerner, the mind that is accustomed to an experiential and empiric approach is much more open to accepting certain explanations without "proof" compared to the Western mind influenced by the scientific method, and so forth. In the end, I'm very lucky to have had good training in Western and Eastern methods and I feel that the combination is extremely valuable and greater than the sum of its parts. But to answer the original question - I do not think that the scientific knowledge is necessary or even especially valuable in the beginning and intermediate student of Eastern methods. In the martial arts world, I feel that it is easier and more advantageous for the student to focus on one discipline until a level of proficiency is reached before adding other, disparate influences. Similarly, I think it is "better" for the student of Eastern methods to develop a substantial proficiency before confusing themselves with an entirely different paradigm. Once a certain level of expertise is reached, then I think it's very valuable to "cross train" in anatomic and physiologic knowledge. Then again - it's probably fine to learn both from the beginning. And I agree with Sloppy... Science rocks! And Daoists roll!

There's quite a bit of Wang Shu Jin on youtube and Chen Pan Ling too. Here is some Bagua TgSPsiQhAZk and some Taiji and Xingyi CGjE-zM9MqE&NR=1

All good and true points, Gold. I appreciate your response and all others as well. I've considered the meditation vacation option very seriously. A few retreat advantages - - free (Goenke Vipassana at least) or inexpensive (a place like Dharma Drum) - structured - perhaps I would create my own structured retreat environment on a 'meditation vacation' but that would take planning and effort and may or may not come to fruition - room and board with healthy environs and veggie meals - I could do this on my own with some effort - fellow participants help to create an environment conducive to the cause and double as 'sitters' - and as you say, the retreat receipt validates the purpose of the experience with the family - there is no way I could carry this off at home - way too hectic and demanding lifestyle that is unlikely to change in the near future

I don't like the book. I practice with a teacher and find the book to smell of too much theory and reproduction of misleading information. That's just me. I would not recommend trying to develop a practice based on that book.

I appreciate your candor and I will give your points careful consideration. Thank you

That's what I was looking at. Touche!

Don't recall where I read or heard this but I like it... Belief is the fervent hope that something that cannot be confirmed is true. Faith is the confidence that truth is what remains when all belief is abandoned. ....or something like that. Most people who speak of faith (ie faith in God or, not to pick on the Nagarjunists, but - in a concept like dependent origination) are simply speaking of belief. Can they let go of their image and belief system entirely and know that the truth is what will remain? One cannot have faith in a concept or idea - faith is being able to let it go. Just finished shoveling the driveway for the second time today. 2 feet of snow on the ground so far and no end in sight... why not wax philosophical?

What a fabulous coincidence! I have the opportunity to observe myself in such a situation yet again. First, I replied concisely and directly. Then, I attempted to disengage with humor. Next, I yielded with a mildly derisive comment. Finally, I laid out my feelings about the whole affair and intend to let it go but who really knows where it will go from here. I never quite know what I'm going to say next. Taomeow, I'm beginning to believe that you may actually have some 'subtle' power! :shudder:

Married with kids (they're old enough to be pretty self-sufficient). My wife wouldn't love the idea of me being away for 10 days and it's not her thing. I feel the calling of a period of silence and contemplation - very tough to do in my daily life. Thanks for those perspectives. My main interest is the silent retreat experience. Whether the teachers have something to offer or not doesn't concern me as much, although I would wager that I can learn something from just about anyone in a position of guiding at a retreat, provided I can simply be open enough. That alone would be a valuable lesson, I think.

Your reply to my first post simply contradicted everything I said yet it was all gratuitous. When I made an effort to clarify, more of the same - all contradiction with no real foundation. "Are you human?" "Desiring is not the root of suffering... " "In fact, there is no such thing as acceptance" followed immediately by "acceptance itself is a struggle against what is..." "Wu Wei is not acceptance" :yawn: It reminded me exactly of the Homer Simpson thread, hence my response. There was a time not so long ago when I would commit the time and energy to defending each point and making an effort to convince you of my perspective. It's just not worth it to me currently - it's not where my head is at. Ultimately, I am at fault because of my use of the word "sparring" - bad choice of words on my part. I actually tire of verbal sparring very quickly, lately, so I chose to disengage. I'm not really interested in trying to convince anyone of my point of view. It is only mine - certainly nothing special and probably not terribly valuable to anyone other than myself. Be well

Thank you for the lesson, master. _/\_

Dear Homer, Gratuitous assertions are not terribly interesting. I think this exchange needs to be moved to Taomeow's thread.

I've been through a number of phases regarding my understanding of "why" I post on boards. This is a bit embarrassing but I will share it anyway as I think it is an opportunity for growth. I find myself often concerned with how my own posts read and the responses they stimulate. What does that say about me and my motivation for posting? I won't go into that but it's an eye opener for me.

I can't resists sparring once in a while.... There is no such thing as "human nature." What humans do and feel is their nature. Ignoring this is simply denial. The suffering towards enlightenment is not suffering, but practice. Practice is not/should not be suffering. Wanting/desiring to be something you are not is the nature of suffering. Practice does not yield enlightenment. One does not move towards enlightenment as it is not somewhere one can go to. You ARE inadequate. "I" is perfect. DO NOT accept what you are. Question your values. Acceptance is Wu Wei, acceptance is liberation. Struggle against 'what is' creates violence and suffering. Question everything, understand and, when necessary, refine your values.

I don't know about a Daoist but here's what I would recommend. Breathe

We are human. We think and remember and feel. It is the nature of our sensory apparatus to create the impression of an ego contained within a bag of skin. And the nature of mind is to want to become. Our "success" as a species is the result of the instinct to become something other than what we are currently. As has been said, it is not productive to fight against our nature, that simply reinforces the presence of the one that is struggling and creates suffering. If what you are is not adequate, this means you are attached to an idea of something other. Accept what you are and commit to living your life according to the principles that you value. Everything else will come of its own accord. At least that's where I'm at, FWIW.

Exactly - Herein lies the rub... Who of us really know our bodies and how they will react to a substance never previously ingested? Who knows what substance is being ingested unless you manufacture and measure it personally? Who of us really know our mind completely? The OP is looking for unchartered territory (ego death, first trip, and so on...) so I would wager that he/she does not know their mind at a very deep level. Certainly not enough to predict the effects of LSD. Psychedelics are potentially hazardous, potentially entertaining, and under optimal circumstances can be educational although the price can be very high. Buyer beware and good luck! PS - I would agree that a guided experience with a credible ayahuescero would be far preferable to copping some acid on the streets...

Absolutely. Some random thoughts about forum sparring... One thing that I find really helps me is that I try to use it as an opportunity to learn more about myself. Questions come up like: Why am I posting in the first place? What am I really doing and on whose behalf? Why am I replying and to whom? Why am I reacting in a certain way because somebody doesn't share my perspective or intentionally wants to be argumentative? All great stepping off points for self-investigation. The other thing is that I reached a point where I just don't care that much if anyone agrees with me. In part, it's because I'm not as sure as I used to be that I really "know" anything worth sharing. Whether I tell someone something or not generally does very little for either of us. Allowing the other person to feel like they "won" can sometimes be an act of compassion that makes me feel better than "winning. Interesting topic for discussion, I often find myself observing my forum behavior and I find some interesting things out about myself from this.

Enlightenment is what happened when I realized that I know everything and the rest of you are full of crap. Peace

I agree. I think there is an enormous amount we can learn from our bodies (and minds). We just need to learn how to listen. It's interesting that we have been conditioned to feel that everything important there is to know comes from outside of us. Yet, where are we in more direct, intimate contact with the universe than in our own minds and bodies? To learn about the world around us, there is no better place to look than inside, IMO.