doc benway

@Ursus mellifera Please try now, you should have access. PS - please make sure you also still have access to the Garden Men's forum. Sometimes adding one secondary forum access can interfere with another.

As they were growing up, I would sometimes ask my children (and myself) to consider the question - would you prefer to be rich or happy? The knee jerk response is often 'rich' but it takes little research to demonstrate that wealth does not equal happiness. I think being right is similar...

I responded there for anyone interested.

道德經: 天地不仁，以萬物為芻狗；聖人不仁，以百姓為芻狗。天地之間，其猶橐籥乎？虛而不屈，動而愈出。多言數窮，不如守中。 (The use of emptiness) Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass [sic. straw dogs] are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a bellows? 'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more. Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see; Your inner being guard, and keep it free. ...English translation by James Legge from Dao De Jing chapter 5 source: https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

Wouldn’t it be fun to watch each of them try?

It’s also a little tricky to discuss the question in very general terms. Teaching what? to whom? these things certainly make a difference.

One way to look at it is the teacher should always be too advanced for you. If there is a disconnect, a problem learning, the question is whether they are able and willing to teach at a level you can learn. The more advanced the teacher, the more easily they should be able to teach at any level, even at multiple levels simultaneously. IMO, the best teacher teaches to the least experienced person in the group. The more advanced students are expected to learn from everything, even the most basic instructions, you can never get enough of the basics if you want to master the advanced levels in most disciplines. I agree that if the teacher wants to focus on something not appropriate for beginners, it is always an option to exclude beginners from the teaching and perhaps have senior students work with that person. If you're not learning it is not because the teacher is too advanced, more likely they are not advanced enough. Also important to look at the student and the student teacher relationship. Not all relationships are a good fit, maybe a different teacher is needed. Not all students know how to learn, that is an art in and of itself. One of the greatest lessons I learned from my neijia master was how to learn. He taught very clearly and patiently to beginners, pushed intermediates to their limit and challenged advanced students to keep up. Teaching is an art that is only in part related to the subject matter. Not only does it deepen one's understanding of and relationship to the subject matter but develops another skill set that can be applied across multiple disciplines.

A look? Basic I've mastered the art of cutting through armor with a fart! That way I can destroy my enemies in front and behind simultaneously after enjoying any of a number of my favorite meals! A well fed warrior is a fearsome opponent.

I find it hard to talk about bliss. I don't look at bliss an objective thing or state that has different versions, or a single version for that matter. I look at it as an arbitrary label that people attach to subjective experience that is extraordinarily complex and continuously changing. Any experience of so-called bliss can be broken down into many facets and layers. There are cultural influences, individual influences, perceptual and physical influences, spiritual, and so on. And we can never experience what someone else calls bliss reliably as experience is unique to each of us. So to try and define bliss as something that is fixed and objective, and meaningful independent of context doesn't ring true for me. The experiences in my life that I might label as blissful have had some common ground. The commonalities tend to involve a sense of release, a sense of return, a deep and satisfying feeling of coming home. On occasion it can be energetically intense, exhilarating, even overwhelming; ecstatic and orgasmic. At other times more a sense of complete and fully satisfying ease, a release and letting go. The feeling of melting into a comfy bed after exhausting work. Coming home after a long and arduous journey. The comfort felt when an intense pain has finally eased. The freedom one might feel when released from a long time in a cage or prison. The satisfaction of reaching the peak after a long climb. The spaciousness experienced when connecting to a boundless experience of stable and effortless meditation. So for me bliss is connected to a release or dissolving of obstacles, finding one's way back to something one had lost or was missing. In the spiritual context it relates to returning to one's true self that was never not already present but was obscured. As I've mentioned before one way to look at enlightening experience is not so much that we are experiencing a particular state or objective condition that can be labeled bliss, or enlightenment, or contentment for that matter. What we are experiencing is the release of whatever blockage or obstacle was restricting us from a more full and complete sense of what and who we are at a deeper, more pervasive and satisfying level.

change

he who cannot lie how would he recognize truth? can fish smell water?

I'm not offering any proof of anything, just my own imperfect perspective. Signs are of no value from the ultimate perspective, they are irrelevant. All is complete and spontaneously perfected with no preference for signs or lack of signs. Signs can be valuable from the relative perspective. How to know if signs are an indicator of spiritual progress? One way is to look at the hundreds and thousands of writings and teachings from multiple wisdom traditions over millennia. Another is to observe changes in one's own direct experience in relation to the presence or absence of certain signs. Some signs are so unquestionably clear that one simply knows with certainty, others are much more subtle and experienced guidance can be useful for interpretation. No doubt there are risks and bad actors. I am an ardent disbeliever. Question everything and everyone. Don't believe, just recognize what is known and what is not known and how to tell the difference. Be as familiar with signs of abuse and manipulation as for awakening and transformation. Tibetans say it takes 12 years to know if a guru/path is right for you... don't commit too easily. I would say that there is a role for following your heart but equally important to be an educated consumer. There are many questions we can ask ourselves - Does the path make sense to me and is it consistent with my values and lifestyle? Is it empowering or does it make me a slave to a master or system? Does my teacher embody the characteristics I would want to manifest in my life? Do I feel more flexible more self-confident, more playful, easy and free or more serious and stressed? Am I becoming more or less reactive in stressful situations? Am I feeling and looking healthier in mind and body? Am I more isolated or more connected? How am I engaging with others, especially family and friends and how are they experiencing me? I think these are some things we can look to for guidance. It can be a tough thing to see clearly for ourselves.

How would one know what specifically?

If one chases the words and biases of various teachers and traditions, particularly if focused on their differences, it’s easy to get tangled in knots. If one follows a single credible path that makes good sense and sees signs of progress, there is little doubt of success. Of course each teacher will teach their view. The best teachers will recognize that there is no right view to the exclusion of others; rather the right view is what is right for each individual practitioner at any given point in their development.

I think it is relatively easy. It's simply a matter of recognizing that different approaches are more effective for different people. If there is an understanding that no concept or paradigm is perfect, it's easier not to get too attached to your team's playlist.

Some like to focus on the differences between paths and hopefully you’ll get some responses. I prefer to focus on the similarities because I can see how the paths converge and I find that far more supportive on my path. For me, the important thing is that the various wisdom traditions help people to connect with their fundamental, authentic selves. How that is defined may differ widely but I don’t get too wrapped up in words and concepts, at least I don’t find them as beneficial as getting my hands dirty and doing the work. Different individuals need different approaches and the important thing IMO is to be sensitive and open to what we each need. It most certainly does. 🙏🏼❤️🙏🏼

It means “compassion” - nying je

it enlightened her! and was immediately denounced as a patriarchal threat...

From the Outer Chapters: 山木. The Tree on the Mountain (English trans. by James Legge) 君曰：「彼其道幽遠而無人，吾誰與為鄰？吾無糧，我無食，安得而至焉？」市南子曰：「少君之費，寡君之欲，雖無糧而乃足。君其涉於江而浮於海，望之而不見其崖，愈往而不知其所窮。送君者皆自崖而反，君自此遠矣。故有人者累，見有於人者憂。故堯非有人，非見有於人也。吾願去君之累，除君之憂，而獨與道遊於大莫之國。方舟而濟於河，有虛船來觸舟，雖有惼心之人不怒；有一人在其上，則呼張歙之；一呼而不聞，再呼而不聞，於是三呼邪，則必以惡聲隨之。向也不怒而今也怒，向也虛而今也實。人能虛己以遊世，其孰能害之！ The ruler rejoined, 'The way to it is solitary and distant, and there are no people on it - whom shall I have as my companions? I have no provisions prepared, and how shall I get food? How shall I be able to get (to the country)?' The officer said, 'Minimise your lordship's expenditure, and make your wants few, and though you have no provisions prepared, you will find you have enough. Wade through the rivers and float along on the sea, where however you look, you see not the shore, and, the farther you go, you do not see where your journey is to end - those who escorted you to the shore will return, and after that you will feel yourself far away. Thus it is that he who owns men (as their ruler) is involved in troubles, and he who is owned by men (as their ruler) suffers from sadness; and hence Yao would neither own men, nor be owned by them. I wish to remove your trouble, and take away your sadness, and it is only (to be done by inducing you) to enjoy yourself with the Dao in the land of Great Vacuity. If a man is crossing a river in a boat, and another empty vessel comes into collision with it, even though he be a man of a choleric temper, he will not be angry with it. If there be a person, however, in that boat, he will bawl out to him to haul out of the way. If his shout be not heard, he will repeat it; and if the other do not then hear, he will call out a third time, following up the shout with abusive terms. Formerly he was not angry, but now he is; formerly (he thought) the boat was empty, but now there is a person in it. If a man can empty himself of himself, during his time in the world, who can harm him?

I love Zhuangzi’s teaching on the empty boat which I think relates to Mark’s point. Not only do we suffer as a consequence of grasping at our own sense of self but we suffer when we grasp at an illusory self in others.

Thank you for sharing your path. The potential for nihilism is high when we investigate the nature of self. It’s very important to focus not only on the illusory nature of self but particularly on the fullness of experience. On my path, there is practice with the openness and connection that gives rise to all experience which becomes a refuge of sorts that fills the void we may experience when releasing self-identification.

For me the important thing is to recognize that there is a tendency to over identify with the wide variety of roles I play in life. It is not about tempering my love for anyone or anything, it is about the false limiting of my sense of self as a consequence of the relationship. In any situation, I can see that I over identify with my side of a relationship or interaction. It can be my job, my role as a father, a lover, a husband, an addict, a member of a political affiliation, an illness, or a religion, and one of the trickiest is that of a spiritual practitioner. Whatever it is, my identification with my role is only a fraction of who and what I am. There may come a time when I recognize that I am unbounded by any particular definition and profoundly interconnected with everything I experience. Unconditional love is a natural consequence of the recognition of the unbounded and unrestrained nature of our fundamental being but it cannot be created or cultivated, IMO. We create the proper conditions and allow it to blossom. When that happens it is clear that there is no need to limit ourselves, especially when it comes to love and relationships.

@statusquovadis - your PPD awaits you!