doc benway

Hilarious!

Or in an instant!

Regardless of insight or "enlightenment", I believe we remain human. We are bound by mental and physical limitations till the day we die. I went through several years of voracious spiritual investigation - lots of reading and study, practice and inquiry. One thing I found fascinating was to see how each guru's view of enlightenment and approach to teaching and life reflected some basic characteristics of their personality and conditioning. Gurdjieff, Watts, Nisargadatta, J Krishnamurti, Ramana, UG Krishnamurti, Osho, Demello, and others - their teachings always tended to reflect specific personality patterns. That's a bit presumptive of me because I never met any of them personally but if you study their teachings and their words and history you can definitely see interesting patterns. I think it's absolutely wonderful when gurus reveal their human weaknesses (and strengths). Hopefully, it helps us to see that it is not about them or their methods. It's not important whether we sit in lotus or chant sutras or read scripture or cultivate Qi or practice red dragon. It's rather about us - our own, personal, individual internal investigation of who and what we are and what makes us tick that is meaningful. Look at and into yourself very patiently and deeply - all those around you who would show you "the way" will only show you that, ultimately, you need to study yourself. If they show you anything other than that, they are wasting your time and very likely exploiting your confidence.

Why use the word "in"? Why assume that "me" is contained within "my" bag of skin (to borrow Alan Watts' wonderful imagery)?

Congrats to the new Mod Squad! Good choices all, Sean

Me too but I also thought it was pretty intense and disturbing when the warlord tried to take his arm. Loved the movie!

If you sit quietly and practice regularly you will have an insight into time.

I'd strongly advocate working with a teacher, even if only infrequently. The key is to spend a very long time walking the circle and practicing standing meditation. The most basic palm changes are the most important. Find someone who can teach you the basic applications and then drill those with a partner until you can really make them work.

Steven Harrison wrote a nice book called The Question to Life's Answers.

It is simply the arrogance of human thought which creates a moon for each viewpoint. The thought will never be the thing and yet they truly are one and the same. Nevertheless, try drinking the word water for one week. Buddha did not define the Truth of existence through words. He saw the Truth through meditation and did his best to help others reach a similar level of experience. It is the scholars who came after that made the error of becoming attached to the words. Peace

Ah but here's the thing, they both are always pointing to the same moon - there is only one moon. The moon is the truth, the fingers that are pointing may do so from differing conditioning. That doesn't change the moon. Don't get trapped in equating your intellectual exercises with reality.

To be accurate, the emptiness you describe is also not the Buddha's, rather it is Nagarjuna's, is it not? Nagarjuna developed the concept of dependent origination to interpret Buddha's much more minimalist commentary. Buddha's comments on the matter basically included the fact that the universe is without self "shunyata" and that one may be liberated if one understands this (meaning at an experiential, not intellectual level). All the rest comes from Nagarjuna and subsequent interpreters, in my understanding. Mind you, I'm not a Buddhist scholar by any stretch of the imagination so please correct me if this is inaccurate. I'm also not a Daoist scholar or a Daoist but based on my interaction with Daoists and my personal practice of Daoist cultivation, I see nothing that indicates the widespread belief or doctrine of a universal self or atman, which Buddha was denying. Priceless!

I love Thomas Merton's Way of Chuang Tzu in addition to others mentioned above. I first began to have a deeper understanding of Chuang Tzu after reading Osho's When the Shoe Fits and The Empty Boat.

I like the freedom in this forum and wouldn't advocate any restrictions. Even when the forum was completely overrun with Kunlun and then Mak Ti Sin, and now one or two Buddhists who tired of the Buddhism forum. This forum tends to get wrapped up in fads or biases from time to time. It's nice to see how it develops and it's an opportunity to practice Wu Wei and sometimes learn something. Then there are always a few gems that pop up with beautiful insights. I suggest that you read what you want and skip the rest, it's not that difficult. All religious traditions tend to bury the truth in mountains of wasted words piled on by generations of interpreters and wannabees. I don't care what flavor it is, they're all basically the same. The process of human thought creating different words trying to hint at the same underlying reality. I used to think I understood things, now I think I see the limitations of thought and that's enough. I'm not an -ist of any sort. I'm with minkus. These long-winded, analytical posts, be they Daoist or Buddhist, are either over my head or not terribly interesting to me lately. So many words, so little reality. They're really not the same, you know. I just don't have the energy to devote to thinking or debating that much anymore.

Coincidentally, a friend loaned me a book to read yesterday called Can Humanity Change? which documents a dialogue between Jiddu Krishnamurti, Walpola Rahula, David Bohm, and others in Walpola's entourage. Very interesting reading for those interested in Buddhism and Krishnamurti fans alike, I think.

Lately it seems to me that spirituality is more or less the same as a spiritual search or path. It arises when the mind is not satisfied with what is. It is looking for something beyond what it knows and sees every day. It postulates that there must be something above, beyond, or behind the mundane daily existence. Something sacred, perhaps eternal. The process of trying to understand what that is seems to be spirituality to me.

Je parle francaise un peu. Native English speaker and trying to learn a bit of Portugese. Eu falo um pouco portugues? I'm not fluent enough in either that I would participate much in subforums but have no objection to others doing so.

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Thanks for your constructive comments sykkelpump. I've been through those things you describe - the feelings, the changes, the awareness of energy, and many others experiences, some very intense and some of which are beyond my ability to put into words. All of that remains in the realm of the known. It's all stuff of the mind. It's pleasant and entertaining and even very useful but it's still all transient and impermanent experience. Meditation goes beyond attachment to such experience. If you have studied Bodri and Zen, I don't need to explain that to you. I currently practice Daoist meditation of the 崑崙仙蹤 sect as my primary method of cultivation I'm very happy with my teacher but thank you for your concern. I've practiced the white skeleton and I regularly practice Anapanasati. I often have my taiji students use that as a way to help them understand the frame of mind to bring to form practice. Be well

I don't know if this will help at all but I know exactly what you mean. The thing about meditation is that nothing is supposed to happen, it's not supposed to be interesting, nothing is supposed to come out of it, you will not be improved necessarily. That is not the point. Futility really is irrelevant because it is not a goal oriented activity (well, that's not completely true as Daoist techniques for example have specific goals and benchmarks but the basic concept of meditation is not about achieving anything in particular). You will read all sorts of descriptions of experiences and effects of meditation - I think that can be counterproductive as it leads to expectations that do not help the process and may not be realistic. Comparing notes with other meditators is a sure way of becoming frustrated with your progress. My teacher strongly discourages us from comparing notes in the beginning. When you reach a certain point in your cultivation, that's no longer a problem but it is in the beginning. Is life stagnation? Is it necessary to be doing anything more than simply living at all times? What is more important than a deep breath of air or sitting quietly in a comfortable position? Why do we feel that these simple things are not enough? The mind's job is to find us food, shelter, a mate, and so on... Now that technology has made it so that we can get all that done with little or no effort, the mind has lots of time to occupy itself. It's not used to quiet time. It's not comfortable unless its busy and occupied trying to keep us safe and full and so on. That is why we, as a species, has been so "successful" and its also why we are so fucked up psychologically and socially. The mind will do its damnedest to win the battle between quiet and activity and it almost always wins. That is why most people give up on meditation relatively quickly. It does not want to be idle. Nevertheless, most people who practice meditation for a certain period of time feel that there is benefit at some level. Medical and psychological research shows positive effects. Look at animals - they are active when they need to be. When there is nothing needed, they are perfectly content doing nothing - either sleeping, sitting quietly, or whatever. Why is it so hard for us to be like that? Meditation is not for everyone and it may be that you are not in a place where it is currently possible or beneficial. If you would like to try it in earnest, I would recommend a teacher - I don't think the specific discipline matters as much as a qualified teacher. It makes an enormous difference, in my experience.

I found a used copy of Wizard of the Pigeons - I'll let you know what I think. I read the first Harry Dresden book and liked it reasonably well (just a bit corny maybe). I do plan to read more of those. I'm reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo right now - very entertaining so far.

I know of a good group in the UK - The Chinese Kuo Shu Institute. They teach Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling), Kuo Shu (Kung Fu), and Chen Pan Ling Tai Ji Quan. Chen Pan Ling was a very famous martial artist in Taiwan after the revolution who synthesized his own form using elements of Yang, Wu, and Chen styles. The school is run by Shi Fu Rob Simpson - he's an excellent teacher and very accomplished martial artist. Here's a link to his site - http://www.kuoshu.co.uk/Index.html Here are two other links that might be helpful in terms of finding a school in the UK: http://www.taichiunion.com/index.php http://www.bccma.com/index.asp Ultimately, I think the best way to choose the right program and teacher is to visit several, take a look at what they do and what their students are like. Talk to the teacher and students a bit and see where you fit in the best. And don't make the mistake of evaluating a school or style of Tai Ji Quan based solely on the form. If that's all you want to learn, it's appropriate to do so. If you are interested in learning the martial art, rather than just the form, there's much more involved than just practicing the form (meditation, strength training methods, two person training methods, Qi Gong, Nei Gong, etc..). Some of these other training methods are very physical, whether it be Yang, Wu, Chen, Chen Pan Ling, or other styles. Unfortunately, very few programs offer comprehensive martial training in Tai Ji Quan. Good luck in your search, it's worth the effort!

Exactly - I think that in part there is the quality of direct inquiry and experience that has nothing to do with understanding or knowing at a verbal/intellectual level that is cultivated. On the other hand, there is the culmination of the inquiry where the search is dropped. Life, after all, is what is available for experience. How much time do we want to expend on trying to figure everything out rather than experience what we can in the short time we have available? I don't know if I have any clue what is being discussed either but I've given it my best shot. This was a really interesting exercise. Many thanks, Lozen, for sharing this with us.

Thanks Mal - I'm gonna read that.

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