doc benway

I don't know if this will help at all but I know exactly what you mean. The thing about meditation is that nothing is supposed to happen, it's not supposed to be interesting, nothing is supposed to come out of it, you will not be improved necessarily. That is not the point. Futility really is irrelevant because it is not a goal oriented activity (well, that's not completely true as Daoist techniques for example have specific goals and benchmarks but the basic concept of meditation is not about achieving anything in particular). You will read all sorts of descriptions of experiences and effects of meditation - I think that can be counterproductive as it leads to expectations that do not help the process and may not be realistic. Comparing notes with other meditators is a sure way of becoming frustrated with your progress. My teacher strongly discourages us from comparing notes in the beginning. When you reach a certain point in your cultivation, that's no longer a problem but it is in the beginning. Is life stagnation? Is it necessary to be doing anything more than simply living at all times? What is more important than a deep breath of air or sitting quietly in a comfortable position? Why do we feel that these simple things are not enough? The mind's job is to find us food, shelter, a mate, and so on... Now that technology has made it so that we can get all that done with little or no effort, the mind has lots of time to occupy itself. It's not used to quiet time. It's not comfortable unless its busy and occupied trying to keep us safe and full and so on. That is why we, as a species, has been so "successful" and its also why we are so fucked up psychologically and socially. The mind will do its damnedest to win the battle between quiet and activity and it almost always wins. That is why most people give up on meditation relatively quickly. It does not want to be idle. Nevertheless, most people who practice meditation for a certain period of time feel that there is benefit at some level. Medical and psychological research shows positive effects. Look at animals - they are active when they need to be. When there is nothing needed, they are perfectly content doing nothing - either sleeping, sitting quietly, or whatever. Why is it so hard for us to be like that? Meditation is not for everyone and it may be that you are not in a place where it is currently possible or beneficial. If you would like to try it in earnest, I would recommend a teacher - I don't think the specific discipline matters as much as a qualified teacher. It makes an enormous difference, in my experience.

I found a used copy of Wizard of the Pigeons - I'll let you know what I think. I read the first Harry Dresden book and liked it reasonably well (just a bit corny maybe). I do plan to read more of those. I'm reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo right now - very entertaining so far.

I know of a good group in the UK - The Chinese Kuo Shu Institute. They teach Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling), Kuo Shu (Kung Fu), and Chen Pan Ling Tai Ji Quan. Chen Pan Ling was a very famous martial artist in Taiwan after the revolution who synthesized his own form using elements of Yang, Wu, and Chen styles. The school is run by Shi Fu Rob Simpson - he's an excellent teacher and very accomplished martial artist. Here's a link to his site - http://www.kuoshu.co.uk/Index.html Here are two other links that might be helpful in terms of finding a school in the UK: http://www.taichiunion.com/index.php http://www.bccma.com/index.asp Ultimately, I think the best way to choose the right program and teacher is to visit several, take a look at what they do and what their students are like. Talk to the teacher and students a bit and see where you fit in the best. And don't make the mistake of evaluating a school or style of Tai Ji Quan based solely on the form. If that's all you want to learn, it's appropriate to do so. If you are interested in learning the martial art, rather than just the form, there's much more involved than just practicing the form (meditation, strength training methods, two person training methods, Qi Gong, Nei Gong, etc..). Some of these other training methods are very physical, whether it be Yang, Wu, Chen, Chen Pan Ling, or other styles. Unfortunately, very few programs offer comprehensive martial training in Tai Ji Quan. Good luck in your search, it's worth the effort!

Exactly - I think that in part there is the quality of direct inquiry and experience that has nothing to do with understanding or knowing at a verbal/intellectual level that is cultivated. On the other hand, there is the culmination of the inquiry where the search is dropped. Life, after all, is what is available for experience. How much time do we want to expend on trying to figure everything out rather than experience what we can in the short time we have available? I don't know if I have any clue what is being discussed either but I've given it my best shot. This was a really interesting exercise. Many thanks, Lozen, for sharing this with us.

Thanks Mal - I'm gonna read that.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers' Stadium Arkadium KICKS ASS!

Nice to see this thread unearthed - here are three things that seem important to me currently 1. Practice kindness 2. Try to see the world and my relationships fresh in every moment without preconceived ideas and images 3. Go with, not against

Alright, I'll bite... Only the bound self can dream of liberation. When the perspective shifts beyond the limitation of the self to that of the Self, bondage is gone, and yet this can be a relatively subtle shift. It is a matter of recognizing who it is that experiences the bondage. If you follow that inquiry to its ultimate conclusion, one realizes that the bondage is illusory. If bondage is illusory, what is liberation? This seems to me the transition from Taiji back to Wuji. Bondage and liberation arise mutually, when one is seen through the other cannot exist. Therefore, the end of bondage is the end of the search for liberation. Hope that is worth something...

I've heard Livia Kohn talk about this topic. She cautioned that the process is considerably different for men and women. She talked about women focusing much more on the middle dan tian than the lower. She talked about negative effects from too much focus on the lower dan tian, particularly during menstruation. I'd be careful and try to find a knowledgable teacher. You may even want to try and contact Livia. She seemed very well versed in the topic. Here is some contact info - http://www.bu.edu/religion/faculty/bios/kohn.html

Very nice post Brian. One (rhetorical) question I have is: is there a difference between active visualization and passive observation? I don't mean to hijack your thread or diminish your experience - you really captured the experience beautifully in words that I imagine many of us have had when beginning a variety of experiential practices, especially neigong and meditation. On the other hand, the whole issue of what is active (intentional) versus what is passive is a fascinating one for me.

Some really great posts in this thread Emotions are an important part of being human. They are our teachers and enrich our lives. The most important thing about emotions, IMO, is to learn not to identify with them. Anthony Demello is a wonderful teacher in this area. Identifying and attaching to our emotions is so ingrained in us that it's reflected in our language: I'm sad, i'm angry.... bullshit. "I" am not sad, there is sadness present, it will pass soon enough. There is anger present, it will pass. As others have said, we can use our emotions to learn to understand ourselves better. We can learn to experience our emotions without identifying with them. If we don't identify with our emotions, we are not bound to react in our usual conditioned patterns. We are free to choose how to behave independent of our emotions. This is a more skillful way to live, IMO.

I don't think there is anything better than simply spending time with him and really being with him when you are together. It is very easy to get side-tracked and distracted with other things.

Very nice post Brian. When we experience our emotions, they are extremely useful, allowing us to make choices that guide our lives in a direction we want to go. When we identify with our emotions, we become trapped and tend to feel helpless and perpetuate patterns of conditioned behavior that are often unhealthy. We will all experience pain in our lives but pain only becomes suffering when we identify with it and struggle against it.

There is a really nice summary of the political, social, and cultural background of Daoism in Burton Watson's introduction to his complete translation of the works of Zhuangzi (I think that's where I read it). Clearly, Daoism was very important as a political movement at one time in history. That is no longer the case to my knowledge. The only place in the world where Daoism is widely practiced in its native form is under rule of an authoritarian regime. Ironic, huh? In or outside of China, I believe that the myriad approaches to Daoist practice would tend not to presuppose a particular political viewpoint at this point in time. On the other hand, if one were to just look at the folks in Western countries who consider themselves Daoists based on philosophical or metaphysical beliefs, then I feel comfortable that there would be some fairly significant political trends...

Well said Gold. I'm with you there 100%. Those things are all experiential reality yet not measurable with the scientific methods currently available. Here I have to challenge you. Actually, this hasn't been the case for about eighty years now, Gold. Heisenberg proved the interdependence between observer and observed in 1927. The Uncertainty Principle marked a fundamental acceptance of the subjectivity of the scientific method and allowed the Quantum Theory and subsequent advances like Superstring Theory and so forth to develop. The whole objectivity thing is just a side effect of macro system observations. When you get down to the small stuff it completely falls apart and is worthless. The observation has been that systems still exhibit certain reproducible and predictable results under specific controlled conditions so the scientific method remains a powerful predictive tool as long as the best approximation is chosen. The mechanical model is a good approximation at the macro level and the quantum model is a better approximation at the micro level. One major problem in science to this day is - why do they differ and how to reconcile the two? M theory, Superstring theory, and others are trying to bridge this gap but none really have it figured out yet. No question this is a bit of an artifical situation but so is every other intellectual examination and approximation of reality. A really interesting treatment of the questions you raise can be found in a book called The Self Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World by Amit Goswami. A general treatment of the Buddhist/Advaita Vedanta picture of the universe (I know, I know - they're not the same) reconciled with the perspective of a Quantum physicist. Excellent read. Here's his website for anyone interested - http://www.amitgoswami.org/

I'm still hooked on new Brazillian artists lately: Curumin from Sao Paolo PA2ELpuZz7Y&feature=fvsr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curumin Rebeca Matta from Salvador, Bahia (not so new but new to me) IwbR8wHAmGU http://www.cliquemusic.com.br/en/Artists/A...;Nu_Artista=929

Nicely put Jakara, I think we've both weighed in on this point a few times in the past... Pontification on .... It's always interesting to see the discussion on this forum regarding the question of scientists investigating Qi. Clearly, people seem to have an interest in seeing scientific evidence of Qi and yet, when none is forthcoming, there is an immediate tendency to question the scientists methods, intent, integrity, or blame it all on some great pharmaceutical conspiracy. If scientists are so horrible, why do we care if we can measure Qi scientifically anyway? I enjoy the irony. The scientific method is sound and extremely effective and valuable. Most scientists have more of an open mind than they are given credit for and tend to welcome new findings and ideas. That's what makes their work exciting and worthwhile. Sure there are some unethical people out there in the scientific world, thank God there aren't any in the spiritual circles... Rather than question their integrity or postulate some giant pharmaceutical conspiracy, why not accept the lack of scientific evidence of Qi at face value and use that knowledge to further our understanding of it? Perhaps the reason that we haven't proven the existence of Qi is that it doesn't "exist" in the usual sense of the word. People assume that Qi is some sort of stuff or some energy that must be measurable. Why make such an assumption? I take the absence of scientific proof of the existence of Qi as a clue to its nature rather than trying to force the data to fit my expectations. When more data is available, I'll adjust my own ideas accordingly. As it stands, I don't really experience Qi as extrinsic matter or energy, I look at Qi more as intrinsic to the experience of living. Perhaps it is an interaction between human awareness and human existence at some level. Through my own practice of Taijiquan, Qigong, Neigong, and Daoist meditation, I personally experience it as just another mode of sensory awareness of physical manifestation (in addition to sight, sound, taste, touch, smell) which makes sense with it being a characteristic of life. It is no less real or meaningful because it is not yet measurable by objective scientific methods. Perhaps it is of a quality that will never be measurable. That doesn't mean that there are vast conspiracies or unethical scientists trying to undermine alternative ideas and therapies. It just means that we may need to refine our ideas about it. There is room for incorporating the Western scientific method, which is an extremely powerful tool, and Eastern experiential methods, which are equally powerful from different perspectives, without attacking the validity or integrity of either. Discounting either due to bias is foolhardy. Melding the two into a gratuitous pseudo-science is equally meaningless and degrades both, IMO. The experimental (scientific) method has proven itself to be effective and reproducible beyond any reasonable question. The experiential methods speak for themselves to those of us that practice them. Paradigms are nothing more than perspectives. All have their strengths and weaknesses. All exclude certain aspects of reality while focusing on others. None is perfect and none is worthless. Rather than choosing one paradigm versus the other, why not take advantage of the benefits offered by all? Ultimately, this will give a more accurate picture than either alone can provide. Pontification off... Happy Father's Day everyone!

As you have attempted, the only way to attempt to point at the moon is through poetry. Descriptions of any other kind fall flat. I'm not much of a poet - too self conscious to read, let alone share any poetry I've written. Bravo Carol.

Very nice work Carol. Have you done something similar with the other five?

Not nearly as much as I'd like. The wild monkey still gets the best of me much of the time. I'm working on it.

No two moments are ever alike. Every moment is infinitely different than every other and yet every moment is this one right NOW> Boredom occurs in the mind. The mind thinks it understands everything through its system of images and ideas. If you can let those images go and really look, listen, taste, touch, smell the world around you at every moment you will never get bored.

If you take a narrower stance, decrease the amount of time you spend doing the exercises, and slowly build up, you may find that you benefit from the set. Try never to let the knee extend beyond the toes and you can also grip the ground lightly with your toes. That often helps the knee. I don't know about mixing and matching, I usually try to do complete sets and work up to them rather than modify them. It can take 6 weeks or more to become accomodated to a new set.

It seems like that would be the case but that's not my experience. The feeling is much different than apathy, it's more like acceptance. In Daoist terms, I would call it wu wei.