doc benway

One of my favorites of 2008 is: Ramana's 40 Verses on Reality Topic starter: Lozen

OK - there are two people with skin cancer. One is a farmer who works outside his whole life and devleops it from excessive sun exposure (melanoma). He has no choice but to do the work to survive. The other is someone who loves to suntan and goes to a tanning booth all year round, developing cancer due to something they did to themselves. Is their response to the Daoist cure going to be the same or different? Similarly, let's say I smoke a lot and get lung cancer and my wife gets it too from living with me. Will one of us respond to the treatment and the other not?

I know some good folks in the Baltimore area if that's not too far south for you.

I'll add a few more parlour tricks popular with the Taiji crowd: Withstand the push of 20 people. Knock people over without touching them. Bounce people far up and away into the air.

So that this big beautiful 'whatever it is' can be aware of itself and revel in it's wonders... We're supposed to dance while the music is playing, not wait until it's over and hope for an encore.

I think this is a good post and a good question that many of us come to. I don't consider myself an "-ist" of any particular flavor. Nevertheless, I would like to throw out some words about how one might reconcile "philosophical Daoism" with the need to believe in a higher power or God in the Abrahamic sense. First, I think it's important not to fight the deeply ingrained "belief" (I'd prefer to call it knowledge) that there is a higher power of some sort. You have that feeling because it is true. There is so much out there that is greater and more magnificent than us and what we can understand with our puny brains. All you need to do is look at the sky on a clear dark night or look at hummingbird or a mountain. And who knows what exists outside the realm of our very limited spectrum of sensory perception? A central theme of "philosophical Daoism" is the doctrine of wu wei. Go with, not against. The reason that wu wei is such an important concept is that it teaches and is a reflection of the "truth" that can be found at the core of all religious traditions. Namely, that God and man are one, nature and man are one, the universe and man are one, Dao and man are one. Man is an aperture through which the universe is aware of itself, just as is a fly and a dog and a tree. Creation is self aware through life of all kinds. The feeling of being separate is a consequence of our elegant thought process and sensory apparatus. A fundamental difference, however, is how God is taught to children. In the Abrahamic tradition, God is personified. "He" is a king, a lord, a judge, and so forth. "He" experiences and demonstrates human emotions like anger, love, kindness, compassion, wrath, and so on. Fascinating how God is portrayed as infinite and one but is male and has lots of human emotions... This is an intentional and useful technique to control children and those who choose to follow rather than investigate but it's a cheap trick and is seen through by anyone willing to dig into the mystical traditions of any of the major religions. It's my belief that Daoism (like Buddha) avoided talking or teaching specifically about the nature of God and reality because you can't say anything meaningful about everything. Where is everything located? What does it include? What does it exclude? What came before and after it? What color is it? It is what it is. It's like trying to tell someone how you beat your heart or digest your food. You do it every day, every second, and you can't say anything meaningful about it. Anything that can be said or taught about the nature of God is doomed to become an image for the people to try to cling to and become attached to so isn't it better just to drop it altogether? So the Buddhists maintain the noble silence and focus on the mind and experience. The Daoists focus, similarly, on self-cultivation and also put a strong emphasis on the connection between man and nature. Both of these methods de-emphasize the tendency to separate oneself from God which leads to worship and rather emphasize the living experience, a direct experience of God. Prayer does this as well but it's important to first get past all of the political BS that gets in the way. Anyway, I have no problem at all reconciling philosophical Daoism with the fulfillment that there is some magnificent, glorious power that encompasses all and is all. The only thing is, I'm such a puny little piece of it that it's true nature is not something I can ever capture or put into a concept or thought or book, no matter how complex. All I can do is open my eyes and ears and heart and revel in it every moment I choose.

I think the best martial art is the one you love to practice every day.

It's even more simple than that... There is nothing more simple than the Dao. It is simply following your nature. Everything else is politics. I love the pig in mud analogy! oink, oink!

Hi Marbles, Welcome to the forum! Sometimes a simple search on the forum or wiki will help answer your questions. Anytime you come across something you don't understand, just ask. If you don't get an answer, please feel free to PM me or other members and most of us will try to help. Most of us will try to answer questions sincerely and patiently, no matter how basic the question. Like in any online community, there are people who will occasionally answer cynically, impolitely, or impatiently but pay that no mind, it is just a reflection of their ignorance, not yours. In terms of pronunciation of Chinese on this forum you'll encounter a mix of Pinyin (the currently accepted method of English spelling of Chinese words in China and Taiwan), Wade-Giles (an old system that still lingers), and a mixture of those with random efforts at phonetic spelling - it can get confusing but the terms will be familiar in no time. Here's a link that might help. Your sense of humor and candor are refreshing. I can tell that you will be a delightful presence here!

Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony DeMello

I think that most scholars of the Daoist canon would agree that "Laozi" was simply a name given for centuries or millenia of wisdom that ultimately was gathered together as Dao De Jing. It's highly unlikely that this work could have been written in one century, let alone by one person.

I finished the book. I liked it quite a bit. The author looks closely at the process of Quantum Mechanics which established in modern science the unavoidable interaction of the observer and observation. Obviously the observer/observation interaction depends on consciousness. Despite this there is really no scientifically satisfying definition of consciousness. In a nutshell, the universe in Quantum Theory exists as an infinite set of possible outcomes in the form of probability functions called Schrodinger equations. The process of observing the system, "causes" the probability function to collapse into a specific solution or event. So the author defines consciousness as that which collapses the Schrodinger wave function, thus creating a discrete event from a possibility function. He does a pretty good job of describing Quantum experiments and paradoxes (although I've read better). He demonstrates that a potential resolution to the many paradoxes and conflicts between classical mechanics and quantum mechanics is that the universe as we know it is not separate from us and made of stuff (Material Realism) but is, rather, created out of consciousness (Monistic Idealism). This consciousness being a unitive consciousness (Dao, Brahman, God, call it what you will) that is the fundamental substance of reality and inseparable from us as human beings. He uses quantum theory to show how the feeling of separateness, the individual "I" awareness, may develop out of tangled hierarchies and quantum probability. He does a very good job, I think, of describing the mind-brain-universe in terms of Quantum Mechanical processes. It really was fascinating. He then applies this to Eastern Philosophical experiential knowledge. He mostly draws on Hinduism and a bit of Buddhism but many of his statements could just as easily be drawn directly from Dao De Jing. One interesting example is during a discussion of Ethics from an Monistic Idealist perspective: "Thus in surrendering the ego to the quantum modality, one becomes truly free and creative. Strictly speaking, ethics and morality are no longer needed as guides because there no longer is any conflict. All these - ethics, morality, conflicts - dissolve into the will of the unitive consciousness. Then there is only appropriate action." What better description of Wu Wei or Daoist ethics and morality? Highly recommended reading but be forewarned, it's not the easiest read. Some of the discussions require some patience, particularly if you're not physics or philosophy-friendly. If anyone decides to read it, please post your thoughts when you're finished.

You got the book? Great! Please let me know what you think of it when you've read it. This verse, to me, asks us to take the first step in distancing ourselves from the self reference of "I"... For example, instead of saying "I am not this or that", thinking more along the lines of "who is it that is feeling happy?" "who is it that is interested in finding out who is feeling happy?" and so on... There does seem to be a different quality to the two methods of questioning. One reinforces the assumption of someone there called "I" and the other steps back and attempts to give up that supposition. I hope that makes some sense...

Mak, Cthulhu is a demon from another world from writings of a famous English author of horror stories named H.P. Lovecraft.

It's a very long article which says, more or less, that we know nothing definitive of the origins of Taijiqan before the 18th century and that it's likely that it became associated with Daoist principles late in its development. That's my recollection of the basic conclusion. It looks at each of the major traditions and their claims regarding it's origins and from what I recall, it seems to take a relatively non-biased approach. It's full of lots of good and scholarly information as would be expected of a talented historian and researcher like Wile. I loaned my copy to a friend and don't have it for easy reference. Please post your impressions once you have had a chance to read it. That was a nice article, Dwai. Please allow me one minor criticism which is including the traditional English translation of Taijiquan as Supreme Ultimate Fist. I think that's a terrible translation. Tai can be translated supreme and Ji refers to ultimate but in the sense of the farthest extent, the pole, or the extreme end of something. It implies, literally, extreme opposites. The connotations of the words supreme and ultimate used together implies something like "best possible" to the English ear. To the contrary, Tai Ji to the Chinese ear is nothing of the sort. It connotes the Daoist principles of mutual arising and the interplay of Yin and Yang. The people marketing Taiji to English speaking populations are probably happy to use that translation to imply that Taiji is the best possible art to practice (and that may be true - it's certainly my favorite) but that is not what the average Chinese person thinks of when hearing the words Taijiquan. Also, it's difficult to come up with an alternative English translation that is concise and captures for the English ear what the characters Tai Ji mean to the Chinese. I personally just stick with the Chinese. If I had to use a translation (of sorts) I'd probably say Yin Yang Boxing... I think that does a better job of capturing the flavor of the characters than Supreme Ultimate. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound terribly impressive or exotic - it sounds kind of trite. With all due respect to Master Liao, I personally think it's much more likely that a martial art (long boxing) became associated with and influenced by Daoist principles and was then renamed Taijiquan. The idea that Daoist exercises (that parenthetically are not a part of any traditional school of Daoist cultivation) were turned into a martial art for preservation doesn't ring true for me. The most critical methods of Daoist cultivation are meditative methods, not physical movements. There would have been no need to turn those into a martial art as they still need to be passed down as meditative exercises, with or without body movements. Nevertheless, there's room in the world (and this forum) for a variety of opinions on the origins of Taijiquan.

Very nicely stated! _/\_

I don't know anything about Goenka but this is a good resource for retreat info: http://dharma.org/ims/

There's a lot of very good scholarly information on this topic. One good and recent English language article can be found in the Journal of Asia Martial Arts, Volume 16, Number 4 - Wile, D. "Taijiquan and Daoism from religion to martial art and martial art to religion". Wile does a thorough survey of published sources in exploring the relationship between Daoism and Taijiquan.

I would advise caution in recommending meditation to someone with "mental problems." If your friend chooses to practice meditation, it would be advisable to have it done with some supervision by an experienced teacher or therapist of some sort. As the mind quiets with meditation, it is more sensitive than ever to pathology or imbalance. Certainly meditation can be healing but it can also be harmful depending on your friend's pathology. Be careful and consider discussing it with a mental health professional. My experience is mostly in Daoist methods but also Zen, Vipassana, and Vedanta.

I'm not a Buddhist but my experience has been that Buddhist meditation practice, for the most part, does not dwell on suffering and pain. The theory is more about that aspect than is the practice. Vipassana, for example, is all about awakening to your true being. It is actually a Hindu method that predates Buddhism and did not develop out of the Buddhist theories associated with the nature of suffering. The Buddhists rightly recognized, however, that it is an effective method for transcending human suffering and therefore adopted it. Certainly there are techniques that appear to be associated with pain and suffering, superficially, such as meditations on death and decay; however, the practical exercise of such a meditation really is not at all morbid or depressing - to the contrary, it is quite liberating. If anything, Vipassana, Chan, Zen and related forms of meditation are actually a more direct method of approaching the issue of the fundamental nature of existence than are Daoist methods. In my experience, Daoist methods have a lot more complexity. Ultimately, they are all pointing at the same reality using different methods flavored with their unique cultural biases. Good luck!

The foundation of lightness skill is internal cultivation, not external exercise.

Here are a few thoughts on the subject. Daoist cultivation involves meditative methods and a curriculum of exercises which are unique and quite a bit different from methods in the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Until you find a qualified Daoist instructor, any of the legitimate meditative methods are a very good start - Vipassana is beautiful. They all help develop a peaceful being and tranquility centered in awareness. This is a wonderful ground upon which to practice the Daoist exercises. You may find that once practicing Vipassana or any other method, the desire to study specifically a Daoist method is less important. I personally do not advocate learning Daoist methods from impersonal sources. There is a quality of interaction between teacher and student as well as subtleties of technique that are very difficult to capture in words. Furthermore, the progression through the curriculum must be tailored to the individual student's progress and the feedback between teacher and student is critical to determine this. There is no way for the student to gauge their level of skill as they have no frame of reference from which to assess where they're at. I study with a teacher and I've read through a fair amount of the written stuff available in books and on the web. IMO, even the most basic stuff is poorly served in writing. Most of the written stuff is very misleading. The philosophical, metaphysical, and intellectual aspects are necessarily emphasized in words whereas the experiential and practical aspect, which is the heart and soul of Daoist practice, is largely lost on the page. Until the universe provides you with a qualified Daoist teacher, Vipassana is a very good way to begin to prepare yourself and it may just end up being exactly what you need - after all, it's there. Much better to begin a worthwhile practice with a qualified instructor than toy around with Daoist methods using a book, video, or the web. Just my $.02.

Thanks for the reply, Dwai. I like your master's story. What school do you study with?

I don't think you'll find a single, unifying theory, just individual experiences or opinions. Here's a brief overview of the integration of martial arts and cultivation for me: I started martial arts training as a child because of an ex-military uncle's influence. It was all about self-defense, competition, and physical fitness in the beginning. Over time it became a real source of psychological/emotional/spiritual strength in addition to the physical benefits. In my 20's and 30's I played around a bit with meditation but nothing serious - mostly martial training for fitness and self-defense. When I hit ~ 40 years of age, I could no longer keep up with the young guys in the hard stuff (I was in a school at the time that focused mainly only full contact training methods) so I got into the internal stuff. After a few years studying Taijiquan, my teacher suggested Daoist meditation practice. Now the cultivation aspects are much more important to me than the martial aspects but the combination of internal Chinese martial arts and Daoist cultivation methods complement each other very well for a combination of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I still focus a lot of my attention on training the martial aspects of Taijiquan. In part this is due to the belief that a true understanding and maximum benefit from the art must include a comprehensive training approach, not simply the forms. Ultimately, however, what's important to me is more the overall development above and beyond just the martial aspects. I hope that helps in some way. Ultimately, you might want to consider trying out some training in one of the internal arts and see how it resonates with you.

I will respectfully disagree with this point of view. Based on my training, my teacher's perspectives, and my readings, Taijiquan was first and foremost a practical martial art. In it's early incarnations, it was primarily a group of eight techniques (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao) integrated with five patterns of body movement/footwork. Training consisted of drilling these techniques to perfection. Over time I suspect that Daoist principles gained a progressively stronger role in the art as the movements became linked together to create forms which subsequently became a moving meditation. These forms were the method of preserving the martial techniques, not the other way around. Health, cultivation, and philosophical principles were natural consequences of this process. In most martial arts in China, the philosophical component became more important as the practical martial skills became less important (Baguazhang is probably the one exception). As challenge matches were outlawed and lost favor, suddenly anyone was free to proclaim themselves a master without fear of physical challenge. They were then free to emphasize all kinds of stuff that may or may not have been useful in combat. This is when the philosophical aspects of the arts started to be heavily emphasized. This seems to have been the case in Xingyiquan and Taijiquan especially. Again - these are just my opinions. I don't claim to be an expert but I don't believe Taijiquan is a fundamental component of many (any?) traditional Daoist cultivation systems. Certainly it is commonly practiced by many Daoists and people practicing Daoist cultivation, but I'd be interested in hearing from more knowledgeable members if it is a core component of any of the major schools of Daoist cultivation. I believe that Daoist principles were adapted to the core martial components of Taijiquan (just my opinion) rather than the martial art growing out of cultivation practices. The balance between martial and health aspects of Taijiquan is one of it's greatest attractions for me. Currently, I'm lucky enough to have a teacher and training partners that allow me to focus on the martial elements. Eventually, the cultivation/health aspects will naturally take over as the body ages and weakens and it's good to know I'll be able to do it no matter what comes. In addition, Daoist meditation techniques complement the Taijiquan training perfectly. I can certainly see why people would conclude that the two evolved together somehow and maybe that's exactly what happened. Ultimately it makes no difference to me. Both aspects of Taijiquan are valuable and available to us for the training.