doc benway

it enlightened her! and was immediately denounced as a patriarchal threat...

From the Outer Chapters: 山木. The Tree on the Mountain (English trans. by James Legge) 君曰：「彼其道幽遠而無人，吾誰與為鄰？吾無糧，我無食，安得而至焉？」市南子曰：「少君之費，寡君之欲，雖無糧而乃足。君其涉於江而浮於海，望之而不見其崖，愈往而不知其所窮。送君者皆自崖而反，君自此遠矣。故有人者累，見有於人者憂。故堯非有人，非見有於人也。吾願去君之累，除君之憂，而獨與道遊於大莫之國。方舟而濟於河，有虛船來觸舟，雖有惼心之人不怒；有一人在其上，則呼張歙之；一呼而不聞，再呼而不聞，於是三呼邪，則必以惡聲隨之。向也不怒而今也怒，向也虛而今也實。人能虛己以遊世，其孰能害之！ The ruler rejoined, 'The way to it is solitary and distant, and there are no people on it - whom shall I have as my companions? I have no provisions prepared, and how shall I get food? How shall I be able to get (to the country)?' The officer said, 'Minimise your lordship's expenditure, and make your wants few, and though you have no provisions prepared, you will find you have enough. Wade through the rivers and float along on the sea, where however you look, you see not the shore, and, the farther you go, you do not see where your journey is to end - those who escorted you to the shore will return, and after that you will feel yourself far away. Thus it is that he who owns men (as their ruler) is involved in troubles, and he who is owned by men (as their ruler) suffers from sadness; and hence Yao would neither own men, nor be owned by them. I wish to remove your trouble, and take away your sadness, and it is only (to be done by inducing you) to enjoy yourself with the Dao in the land of Great Vacuity. If a man is crossing a river in a boat, and another empty vessel comes into collision with it, even though he be a man of a choleric temper, he will not be angry with it. If there be a person, however, in that boat, he will bawl out to him to haul out of the way. If his shout be not heard, he will repeat it; and if the other do not then hear, he will call out a third time, following up the shout with abusive terms. Formerly he was not angry, but now he is; formerly (he thought) the boat was empty, but now there is a person in it. If a man can empty himself of himself, during his time in the world, who can harm him?

I love Zhuangzi’s teaching on the empty boat which I think relates to Mark’s point. Not only do we suffer as a consequence of grasping at our own sense of self but we suffer when we grasp at an illusory self in others.

Thank you for sharing your path. The potential for nihilism is high when we investigate the nature of self. It’s very important to focus not only on the illusory nature of self but particularly on the fullness of experience. On my path, there is practice with the openness and connection that gives rise to all experience which becomes a refuge of sorts that fills the void we may experience when releasing self-identification.

For me the important thing is to recognize that there is a tendency to over identify with the wide variety of roles I play in life. It is not about tempering my love for anyone or anything, it is about the false limiting of my sense of self as a consequence of the relationship. In any situation, I can see that I over identify with my side of a relationship or interaction. It can be my job, my role as a father, a lover, a husband, an addict, a member of a political affiliation, an illness, or a religion, and one of the trickiest is that of a spiritual practitioner. Whatever it is, my identification with my role is only a fraction of who and what I am. There may come a time when I recognize that I am unbounded by any particular definition and profoundly interconnected with everything I experience. Unconditional love is a natural consequence of the recognition of the unbounded and unrestrained nature of our fundamental being but it cannot be created or cultivated, IMO. We create the proper conditions and allow it to blossom. When that happens it is clear that there is no need to limit ourselves, especially when it comes to love and relationships.

@statusquovadis - your PPD awaits you!

Yes Translations are limited by vocabulary but understanding of meaning is unique and personal and as varied as human minds. When you are able to experience my experience of bliss, or contentment, I will agree with you that there is an objective thing called bliss or contentment that is independent of the one describing it. PS If it’s not already clear, I do not think contentment is any better than bliss as a label to point at whatever it is we are trying to indicate

It’s funny to discuss these experiences as if there is a right or wrong answer. There are as many experiences of bliss, or contentment for that matter, as there are experiencers.

Texas

In Bön dzogchen language, the natural state, the unspeakable state. Both The techniques themselves are actions performed by a practitioner. When the practitioner is no longer present, no longer engaged, there is realization. At this point there is no need for techniques as the obscurations are gone.

there is no boatman but the oars are so thirsty who will water them?

Do you feel this applies to spiritual practices that require specific breathing patterns like tsa lung, trul khor, tummo, and so on? My experience is that controlledbreathing patterns, including breath holding, combined with awareness, and sometimes also body movement can be very effective tools for clearing the channels and chakras of obscurations.

too much meat is bad unless, of course, you are a power-lifter all is relative!

Some life experiences are wonderful and some are horrible but they are all good because they are my teacher. ~ me

How long are you going to wait to be happy? ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

When they give Teachings, many teachers say that as you do practice, then gradually your thoughts start to diminish until finally there are no thoughts. This is Sutra style, it is not Dzogchen. If you are really in your Real Nature, thoughts are continually arising, but you do not follow them. You know what you are thinking about and how thoughts are manifesting, but you are not a slave to that. In general, when we follow after our thoughts we have problems. When we have contact with objects, just that moment is liberating. We dont need any kind of antidote or effort. Just being in that state is called Dzogchen, is called self-liberation. Why is it called self-liberation? Because we dont need something like an antidote or a method for liberating because there is nothing to liberate. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu The Melong - vol 64 Norbu Rinpoche with Tenzin Wangyal RInpoche circa 1988

Apparently s/he was reacting to the shutter noise of the remote camera.

In the tradition I follow the closest thing to what you describe would be to transcend or release all notions of one’s self - all ideas, conditioning, habits, patterns, concepts, emotion, expectations, and so on, and to abide in what remains. It is clear, spacious, and ever-present, and cannot be named without being polluted. It can be called many things, none of which capture it, but is most often referred to as sems nyid, literally mind’s nature or essence. It’s also often referred to as Buddha nature. https://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/sems_nyid

Good to hear all the positive things. I’ve said enough negative things and really know little to nothing about Sadhguru. I pray he benefits everyone he touches! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

My introduction to meditation came from my kung fu teacher. He would only teach those who had studied external or internal martial arts or qigong for a minimum of 2 years. Like others, martial arts and qigong have benefited me in so many ways. One of which was to serve as a foundation for deeper mental, energetic, and physical cultivation.

Lot's of good lessons to be learned here. My wife sometimes says she learned parenting from doing the opposite of her parents...

At the risk of sounding defensive, I’ll share that I feel a very deep connection with Jiddu Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello, both masters from India that form a large part of my spiritual foundation. Another important teacher with whom I’m very close is Chinese and my root guru was born in India of Tibetan descent. I’m visiting with him today, yay! I live and work in a town that is 60% African, 20% European, 7% Asian, and 7% Latinx. While they may bother some people, the skin color and turban of Sadhguru do not disturb me. His $25 million estate, obscenely large and unnecessary palace, his fleet of expensive cars, and claims of divine birth and enlightenment, along with his cheesy and smarmy manner do. His vibe for me is a bit like Osho minus the drug addiction although Osho’s wisdom for me seemed to run a bit deeper. Full disclosure, I learned a lot from Osho’s talks. Racism and xenophobia exist. I’m not afraid to admit I’ve experienced it from both sides. Something I have looked at and worked with in myself over time. Christian nationalism, fundamentalism and prosthelytization are a real threat, especially now in the US. None of that is the basis for my feelings about Sadhguru.

I can’t say I dislike him and I agree that he usually says the right things but I do get a weird, phony vibe from him. I trust my intuition when it comes to teachers and it usually guides me well…

I think it can work temporarily but, depending on your objectives, may give a false sense of progress and confidence. Things we ignore generally do not go away, they often gain power in our subconscious and return with a vengeance. When something. wants our attention, it will get it eventually. Meditation gives us an opportunity to work with this stuff. At least that’s my approach.