doc benway

I sometimes do translation of Chinese characters for my teacher. Translating Chinese into English exposes the profound difference in the languages that I think speaks directly to this issue, and possibly the reason why you were asked to discuss this topic, Stig, I think it's a trick question! The English language (and other Western languages) are predicated on the concept of cause and effect. Subject/action/object and so forth. This is so deeply ingrained in our psyche and thought process that we cannot step out of it lightly. The Chinese, on the other hand, have a language that does not rely on such a temporal construct. Each character evokes a mood, concept, idea, action, or object but the language is constructed without the same rigid cause and effect pattern. The pictographs are simply placed side by side and one interprets them with a much less rigid format. I believe the Western cause and effect premise to be fallacious. I think it's a consequence of the thought process. This can get into a very lengthy discussion but here's something to think about. What is time? If you look into it deeply you may find that time is the movement of thought. This results in an ordering of ideas or events which is experienced as cause and effect. One of the fundamental concepts of Daoism is an awareness of mutual arising and the complementary nature of things (non-temporal) which I think underlies the Chinese mindset, much as the concept of cause and effect (temporal) underlies the Western mindset. Alan Watts does a nice discussion of the nature of time you can find on youtube in 3 parts. Also, there's a very interesting book on the topic by Huw Price called Time's Arrow and Archimedes Point, or something like that. Good luck Stig!

I would suggest that you search this forum - there are hundreds of posts and dozens of threads on the topic.

Excellent points everyone. Very well put Todd! Your explanation makes perfect sense. It was his use of the word "even" that was bothering me. Thank you all for contributing to the thread, please continue!

I hope it's not premature to move on but this next verse really mystifies me... 23. The body does not say 'I'. No one will argue that even in deep sleep the 'I' ceases to exist. Once the 'I' emerges, all else emerges. With a keen mind enquire whence this 'I' emerges. The body does not say 'I' - I think this is his way of saying the awareness or feeling of 'I' exists apart from the physical body. I can see that point. I also understand the progression of "Once the 'I' emerges, all else emerges." Finally, I've done a lot of enquiring after "whence this 'I' emerges." I'm not sure I get the part about deep sleep. Can anyone shed some light on this? The way he phrases it is confusing to me.

I'll buy that approach only if you are using the word light in a figurative sense. If we take it literally we are stuck searching for a visual light or an experience of light in our heads and I don't think that's the direction we want to go in. Exactly! I think light here is pointing to the light of awareness. That which allows us to feel that we are an "I". That comes from somewhere untouchable and inexplicable. Searching for that source was Ramana's favorite exercise and the only thing that he felt would lead to awakening. Proof of life! There is the perspective of how to "know Him" that I like to investigate. Most of us would agree that at some level the universe is fundamentally one great whole - Dao, Wu Ji, God, whatever. And yet, we do not routinely feel that we ourselves are a part of that. It's almost as if we feel that the universe is one great whole and then there's "I", which is separate. What Ramana is saying to me is that whatever it is that is Divine within the universe is also that which is Divine inside of us. Where better to approach and commune with this than inside our own mind where we can find that Divine light or spark that is our awareness, the sense of "I". That is where we find the connection and the oneness. Using the mind, one can't know this. Looking for the source of the mind, it can become apparent.

I think Sean does a great job of approaching this forum with the attitude of Wu Wei. I've been a part of another forum where entire threads routinely disappear because the moderate thought they were inappropriate. When necessary Sean intervenes but keeps it to a minimum. There are and have been a number of posters here who are less mature and less civil when crafting their posts. I always read and reread my posts several times to make sure it says what I want without being offensive or hurtful. On the other hand, we can get a bit emotional at times. I would second Stig's plea for a mature, civil, and considered discussion on this forum. When things escalate, ask yourself if your post will really enhance the discussion. Or does it simply represent some emotional or other conditioned response.

This book has been sent to a Tao Bum. Sorry I don't have more to offer!

Hi Rumpole, Welcome aboard. There are a few of us Taiji bums here. Best regards, Steve

Hi Mark, I too came to an interest in Daoism through the study of Taijiquan. After a few years of Taijiquan, my teacher suggested that a study of Daoist meditaiton would facilitate further progress in Taiji. I began practicing Daoist meditation but have no interest in the rituals and religious conventions of Daoism. Like you, I do not subscribe to any "-ism" as a belief system. Nevertheless, I've found that all religions are founded on fundamental truths that transcend politics and cultural bias. All contain beautiful gems mired in human waste. Osho said it best for me when he said something like - true religion is an individual's internal search for their connection with the truth, everything else is politics. Welcome to Tao Bums - I think you'll fit in well here.

I think that the subtelty and complexity of Bagua would make it impossible to learn from anything other than a good teacher. Poor practice could cause injury to your knees and back. Be careful.

I don't know what it will be like but here is pretty good evidence that the master is back at work! http://www.kingshotthemovie.com/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0892411/ The cast looks very promising... I can't wait!

For some reason, this guy reminds me of Erle Montague...

If George Bush couldn't destroy the world in 8 years, CERN doesn't scare me one bit...

I'd be happy to send the book to anyone who wants it. THIS BOOK HAS BEEN SENT TO A TAO BUM.

The one that is best avoided. Sensitivity and internal skill are only achievable through consistent and skillful practice over time. There are no worthwhile short cuts, IMO.

No

Lately I've been deeply affected by the teachings of Anthony de Mello. I'm fortunate enough to have a friend who burned a set of his CDs for me (Wake Up to Life). I love him through his teachings and he has taught me a great deal about love. To your question cat, "Do they inspire your heart and soul and mobilise your spiritual juice?" is a resounding YES!

That was nice to read. Thank you

I really like how you are bringing together the yin and yang aspects of this and I especially resonate with your comments about dissolution of the subjective and objective and attendant change.

Very interesting perspective Stig but it's psychodiverticuli...

I send my used books to the Veterans' Administration Hospital. There are lots of ill and injured soldiers and their families who have a lot of time and love to read - they're usually starving for new books to read and will read just about anything to pass the time in the hospital.

Some books that I've found to be indispensible in my view of things: Awareness by Anthony de Mello To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti When the Shoe Fits by Osho Be As You Are: The Teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi by David Goodman I Am That by Nisargadatta Maharshi A couple of inspiring CD collections: Wake Up and Live by Anthony de Mello Out of Your Mind by Alan Watts All of my meditation and martial arts practices come from my teacher. I haven't found martial arts or meditation books help me much.

I have a different viewpoint. There is only one way, IMO, to "develop" Qi. That is through quieting the mind and training it to become aware of it's connection with the body on a level otherwise ignored. The Qi is always already there. I don't believe that you add more Qi or build up Qi or strengthen Qi, you just tune in to a mind/body/universe connection which the Chinese call Qi. I think Qi is a process or an interaction, not stuff. You become aware of the body in a new way. As that connection strengthens, it can be used for martial and healing purposes among other things. In my view, the way to "develop" Qi is through meditation. The meditation can be seated (Daoist methods are specifically designed to do this), standing (Xing Yi Quan, Yi Quan), or moving (Tai Ji Quan, Ba Gua Zhang). Seated meditation allows the mind to become the most tranquil of the three and is therefore much more effective much faster. It's much more difficult to develop that subtle bond while standing, let alone moving. Daoist meditation and neigong will take you much further in Qi cultivation than any of the martial arts. That's what it is designed to do. It takes you through a progressive curriculum of exercises specifically designed to develop that awareness to very high levels and beyond. The internal arts will give you a way to use that new skill in a martial sense. My teacher told me when I started practicing Daoist meditation that there is only so far one can go in the internal arts without Daoist meditation. After meditating for several years I believe him to be correct. Just my $.02 - others have different and equally valid perspectives.

I don't think that was directed at you Stig... To get back to the original question, however, I would like to make a point about this demo. I would be careful about using this particular video as an example of how to properly do the Ba Duan Jin. That particular set is mostly about self healing and organ balancing. WIth such Qigong practices, the use of the mind of intent to guide Qi awareness is important. When you stand in a deep ma bu like this fellow is doing, that degree of muscle tension makes it quite difficult to accurately do the internal work for the vast majority of practitioners. There are other Qigong sets that emphasize physical development, like the Shi Ba Luo Han Gong - these sets are done in deep, physically challenging stances which contributes to the result of building physical strength, breath development, and other such benefits. In summary, know what your goals are and practice accordingly. The Ba Duan Jin can probably yield benefits when done in deeper stances but most people practice it from the perspective of organ work and health which is better done in a more natural, comfortable, and relaxed stance. Martial Qigong sets are generally done in deeper stances and often with dynamic muscular tension. To me, this particular demonstration seems to be mixing the two approaches and I would be a bit skeptical of that approach.

Beautiful selection!