doc benway

I don't know the gentleman but I was not terribly impressed with his old frame video excerpts. Some people excel at scholarship, others excel at martial arts (including Qigong, Neigong, meditation), very few excel at both.

Some gurus are truly awake, others are simply opportunists. All of them remain human and imperfect and subject to weaknesses as dictated by their physiology and conditioning. The more awakened one is, the less conditioning affects behavior yet it is not completely absent until death. Gurus are good for showing you a door and pointing out your delusions. There is no need for them to be perfect to do that. You must open the door and live on the other side. You must let them go just like all of the other illusions. Attachment to a guru, ANY GURU, is missing the point entirely. It is just as bad as any other attachment or addiction. You must ultimately stand on your own two feet and be. The perfect person is a construction of the mind. The only perfect people are those who we read about in stories handed down for 2,000 years. Only corpses are perfect, the living have flaws.

Matter is a human description of one aspect of energy that is experienced by the human organsim through the sense of touch. Color and light is energy experienced through vision, sound through hearing, and so forth. Sort of like the 3 blind men describing an elephant but at a different level. If you deconstruct matter you ultimately are left with nothing but energetic subatomic particles. Even those particles are constantly being deconstructed to less and less "matter-like" representations. Our scientific model is getting closer to a pure energy description (eg Superstring theory, Quantum theory) which would be completely consistent with many Eastern descriptions of the universe (not to mention my own empiric experience through meditation). We get too hung up on words and concepts. Good advice Patrick - enjoying it is best. Patrick - nice discussion. We're told nothing travels faster than light but what about Bell's inequality and other similar results more recently regarding photon interaction? We certainly don't understand it all. Science will forever have limitations, namely - the limitation of rational human intellect.

Zhan Zhuang just refers to standing and can be any posture. Yi Quan incorporates many different postures. San Ti iSh is the primary standing posture used in Xing Yi Quan. The back foot is open ~ 45 - 60 degrees. The front toe points forward. The front hand index fingertip is directly in front of the nose and directly over the front large toe. The rear hand is palm down with the thumb pointing at dan tian. 70% of the weight is on the back foot and the both knees are bent. At least that's how I practice San Ti Shi. You start with maybe 5 minutes per day and work up to 30 minutes per side per day. It's most important to understand song and relax the shoulders without collapsing the arms. Here's a video I just stumbled on that looks pretty close to how I practice. BMlDi7h0viM&feature=related

With all due respect, matter is energy. That relationship is well established beyond conjecture.

I love Toots - he's great live and has been touring a lot in the last few years, definitely a show to catch! Here's someone that caught my ear, Bebe: rRuwd4dn4dw

AHA! I thought you knew Ramana It just shines right through! I'd love a copy, please.

One of the most illuminating books I've ever read was Osho's When The Shoe Fits, a discussion of several parables of Zhuangzi. He did a follow up called the Empty Boat which was nearly as good and his book on Liezi writings was quite good as well. I've heard this clip before - I like it.

RAOTFLMAO I love it! I wish I would have had the opportunity to make a Woops like that... brilliant! I guess his skill can be seen by the fact that you didn't mention any fractures...

I would distill the "goal" of Daoism down to two Chinese words: 無為 Wu Wei One succinct English translation might be - to not go against the natural course of things Just my view, many others have a different and equally valid opinion There's a nice discussion about Wu Wei on wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

You're in good company - it's human nature. But is it conducive to really learning and really living? We have this tendency to compare everything new with the already known. That reduces the new to a preconceived and conditioned idea that makes it more managable. But what does that actually do for us? It's great when we encounter something threatening but how valuable is it when speaking of Qi? When it comes to Qi, an hour of meditation, Qigong, or Taiji practice is worth a year of scholarly research, IMO. This is why the Chinese speak of cultivating Qi rather than studying and understanding it. Qi is a skill to be cultivated, not a quantity to be hoarded or measured. It is a process, not a substance. Just my $.02.

You need to get your priorities straight, brother. Understanding the universe vs work...

I also find myself getting irritated by attempts to apply Western scientific terminology to a discussion of Qi. Rather than actually get attached to that whole discussion and identify with the feeling of irritation, I think this provides a very useful opportunity to look at myself. What is it about ourselves that makes us try to describe Qi in scientific terms? Is it our own discomfort with believing in something that does not lend itself to the scientific method? Are there other reasons? The Qi concept developed from an entirely different paradigm than the Western scientific method. The Western and Eastern paradigms really don't mix - are we afraid that one is right and the other wrong? Do they need to be mutually exclusive or consistent? Why should they? Why is it that I find it annoying that others like to use scientific terminology to discuss Qi? Is it a natural consequence of my conditioning? Is it that I have a lot invested in the scientific method as it relates to my profession? Perhaps I feel threatened by anything that compromises or misuses that method. Why should I feel threatened? What would it be like to be able to see through all that? I personally find this avenue of inquiry much more illuminating than a debate about whether Qi is electromagnetic energy, gravity, snake oil, or angel dust...

Check out the active thread on the topic if you haven't already. A number of us have described some of our ideas there and in similar previous threads in the past. If you are commited to developing an understanding of Qi, I'd strongly support your thought of trying Taiji. Qigong, Neigong, and Daoist meditation are also very good approaches. I don't think that anything written about Qi is of very much value. Your own experience of it is significant. Everything else is just intellectual indulgence, IMO. Not that intellectual stuff is necessarily bad, but it won't get you any closer to understanding or "cultivating" the real thing. If you start practicing in earnest, you'll see what I mean soon enough.

I don't know if these ideas come from your intellect or experience - threre is an important distinction there. Your post certainly sounds as if you've already seen through much of the illusion already, and yet you are still not quite certain. If you have understood the nature of labels and the real, why ask this question? Clearly Qi/Chi/energy are labels we put on something that is beyond labels... I don't mean to be preachy, but why not apply your earlier insight to the label Qi and the label Dao and all of the other labels. You already know the answers to your questions, I think. Taijiquan is a martial art that developed as a result of principles of mutual arising, yin/yang theory, and Daoist cultivation being applied to martial arts over the past few hundred years or so. Later on, simply practicing the form became popular as a moving meditation and a path toward mental and physical integration and cultivation. That's basically the story of Taijiquan as I see it. It's a wonderful discipline. Daoism is a religious, cultural, philosophical, mystical, and social tradition of extraordinairy complexity and variety that has it's roots in Chinese shamanism. It means many things to many different peoples. It's not easy to define or pin down. You clearly have a lot of insight into real truth. Methods like Kunlun, Taiji, and meditation will perhaps give some additional support to your insights. Some may be more exciting and others more subliminal. Beware getting attached to the path. It sounds as if you've come far through simple observation, awareness, and self inquiry. That is the true path. Everything else is gimmick and entertainment. Sooner or later you will return to the simple. Good luck in your search - you've already found what you're looking for, I think, but there's nothing more challenging than letting go of the quest... _/\_

I've seen good results with the following, very simple technique - it's probably a bit more effective when guided by a therapist or tape, but is worth trying on your own. Sit in a comfortable position, in a comfortable room with no distractions. No alarms, phone, animals... Feel yourself sitting there. Bring your attention first to your breath, in and out. Do not try to control, measure, or force it, just pay attention. How does your chest feel on inhalation? On exhalation? Feel your head, face, mouth, neck, and so on. Feel the air passing through your nose, mouth, throat... Feel the palms of your hands resting on your thighs or lap. Feel your bottom on the chair, your feet on the floor. Notice the smells around you, the sounds, the feel of the air on your skin. Pay very close attention to everything within reach of your awareness, really try to notice everything and the character of everything in great detail. It's amazing what one can notice when you take the time to be quiet and pay attention. See what happens... As you lose yourself in awareness, the anxiety may diminish. If not, turn that same quality of interested awareness on the bodily sensations that accompany or indicate the anxiety. Don't fight them, just be there and notice how it feels. Stay with it. Fighting or avoidance give those feelings strength. Acceptance shows you that it's nothing more than any other physical sensation. Intermittently, come back to the breath, the physical sensations and so on. Try this exercise once or twice a day for about 10-15 minutes. Good luck.

Buddy - as you know I'm a bit of a skeptic myself. I've recently been seeing a therapist who specializes in 'visceral manipulation' which is really an energy manipulation technique related to Reiki, somewhat. I haven't seen much improvement in my problem yet (ashtma, chronic cough, laryngitis and so forth) but I definitely feel some interesting stuff during the treatment...

What is the Truth of the scriptures which declare that if one sees the Self one sees God? How can one see one's Self? If, since one is a single being, one cannot see one's Self, how can one see God? So I think Ramana is challenging our use of language and imagery about "seeing" what we are, the Self or God. That is, how can one see oneself? How can the eyeball see itself (without a mirror, of course)? The nature of the Self is all-encompassing so that one cannot step outside of the Self to see it as a separate entity. It can only be experienced from within, somehow. That's how I interpret this part. Now the next bit: Only by becoming a prey to Him is very interesting. Is he saying that one must allow oneself to be completely 'gobbled up' by the self? Give oneself over to being absorbed into the Self and experience it from within? Something like that? Just my read on this - I'd love to hear from others... Mat? Mal? Lozen? White Tiger? We're getting there...

The author that has had the most profound impact on me is probably Jiddu Krishnamurti - To Be Human is a great starting point in exploring his ouvre. Another great book is Awareness by Fr. Anthony de Mello. There is nothing more profound and valuable than sitting but I also have a bit of an intellectual side that I like to indulge.

My primary focus currently is Taijiquan and Dao meditation. I also practice Xingyiquan in the Hebei lineage but the Xingyi takes a back seat to Taiji and meditation lately. Our Taijiquan program is based on Yang style and Chen Pan Ling style. We practice a very comprehensive Taijiquan curriculum (2 jian forms, 2 dao forms, staff, spear, 2 man set, jian 2 man set, qin na, fixed and moving da lu drills, multiple other 2 man drills, pushing hands, san da, free fighting, supplemental qigong and neigong). Our Dao meditation lineage comes from Liu Peizhong. I practice some basic circle walking but have not pursued a serious study of Bagua yet - simply too much to practice on my plate already! My school also has an external program. We cross train a bit with the external guys but that's not a big part of my focus. Prior to my current focus, I spent time in a few 'external' systems dating back to the early '70's including Wing Chun, Japanese sword arts (kendo, iaido, and iaijutsu), and Shorinjiryu Kenyukai Karate. My teacher and fellow instructors are the best group of people I've ever trained with. We have a group of really dedicated folks who take our training seriously and work together to try and figure out how to really make the stuff work. Our teacher recognizes our efforts and loves to teach when he sees serious students who want to learn. I'm very fortunate to be in this situation currently and I'm trying to take full advantage of the opportunity. These situations never last forever but, while I can, I plan to learn as much as I can and perfect what I'm taught to the best of my ability.

I haven't seen the Nat Geo program but will try to track it down for entertainment value. I think that the discussion about Qi take a wrong turn early on in most cases. It is not a discussion about the existence of Qi but one of definition. Qi unquestionably exists as a concept and a word. It's deeply ingrained in the understanding of life in some cultures and not others. That's all any word is - a thought and a verbal or written representation of a thought, a label - just like an adhesive label with the word sofa written on it stuck on a bare floor. The word and thought Qi are never the thing. So what needs to happen is a discussion about what it is we are trying to point to with the label Qi. I think that Nat Geo was trying to point out that supernatural manifestations of the kind very popular among a small number of people cannot be verified or reproduced under sufficiently standardized conditions. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think they, or anyone, can disprove the existence or absence of Qi - just the inability of a few charlatans to come through with their bullshit claims. The best "Qi masters" generally will not perform their magic under sufficiently controlled circumstances to validate or invalidate their claims. Gee, I wonder why? Lack of confidence? Lack of honesty? There is certainly no lack of potential reward and opportunity... Anyway - I am absolutely convinced of the existence of Qi from my own experiential perspective. But the thing is, Qi is just a word I am using to label something I feel or experience, NOT the other way around. My definition would be closer to that of daoian, though not identical. I experience Qi as sort of something that occurs at the interface of awareness, intention, attention, and the process of existence. To date, there is no accepeted definition and no "objectively" measurable stuff or energy that has been validated by the scientific method that we can all point to and say THAT is Qi. Efforts to ascribe special power or ability to it are a human contrivance to use (usually exploit) the idea for personal gain. I find it better left undefined and minimally categorized or pigeon-holed. Demonstrations, descriptions, and definitions never capture it. Just like thoughts, words, and concepts are never that which they are trying to describe. The study of Taiji and Dao meditation, however, can certainly put one in touch with an experience of an activity or process that I feel comfortable labeling Qi.

Great presentation Jane. Your dedication and years of training are very obvious in this demo. If I ever make it out to SF, I would like to look you up. It would be fun to share!

I find it a bit distracting to be too concerned with specific theoretical and verbal descriptions of many aspects of taiji, including weight distribution. The 3 nails, bubbling well, K-1, and so forth. My approach has been to adjust my posture based on the Taiji classics. The specific posture and movement determine where the pressure distribution is at any given moment and it varies. When the toes grip and release, it varies. Moving forward and back or side to side, it varies. In two legged standing, I do feel the entire foot. It does feel that there is a concentration or focusing of awareness toward the center of the foot, a bit behind the ball (call it what you will) and yet I don't make that a goal nor the focus of concentration. I'd recommend that you open yourself to your practice and experience the feeling and reach your own conclusions. Following someone else's opinion of what's right or wrong doesn't teach you as much as your own experience. Theoretical concerns regarding energy flow are all well and good but try to remember that they are just an incomplete method of sharing an experience verbally rather than the experience itself. The experience is real. The theoretical and verbal description are simply verbal approximations...

What's the difference?

Based on my experience training in Wing Chun, Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji, I believe Wing Chun to be primarily an external art. I think that some Wing Chun teachers have recognized the benefits of internal training and supplemented their training with those methods. The chi sao in the video clip is clearly a blend of chi sao with push hands. Traditional chi sau is much more focused on striking then pushing. We've been seeing a number of Wing Chun players starting to compete in push hands events at our tournaments. They find the cross-over to be valuable in their chi sao and some of them do quite well at push hands, especially restricted step. The three generally recognized internal arts have one thing in common - they strongly emphasize standing and/or moving meditation as a core focus in their training regimens - Xingyi=santishi, Bagua=circle walking, Taiji=slow meditative form, plus all involve additional standing and sitting meditation. This is not a fundamental core element of traditional Wing Chun training to my knowledge although all styles of martial art utilize meditation, posure, whole body power, etc... We did some neigong exercises and some standing and sitting meditation but it was a small component of the training, relatively speaking.