doc benway

I disagree. Aging is the true nature of humans and all other living things. Humans are born, live, age, and die. It is natural and it is beautiful. There is that which is behind, beyond, before, after, and within everything that never ages and that is beautiful and is as it should be. That is the true nature of everything including man and can be included in our perspective but is beyond our human incarnation here on earth. Man's nature is as you see it. Acceptance leads to peace - wu wei the Daoists would call it - going with rather than against. Struggling against nature leads to suffering - seeing life as disgusting, that's painful. That's not the way of the Dao. The way is not to fight against nature with some dreams of living forever in the body you currently occupy, that's a fantasy. Just my perspective, FWIW.

Cool pictures. Thanks

Now that's no fun!

What is it that you are looking for? Isn't studying taiji enough for now? How many pots do you want to be tending at one time? You seem to be jumping around like a cricket on hot asphalt. I would suggest that you try and settle the fire in your belly just a bit and try to focus your energy on a single practice for a time. Talk to your taiji teacher - have you told him how you feel? This would be a very good start, IMO. I offer this advice in a spirit of support, concern, and respect.

I don't accept Yi Jing as an authority any more than any other book - no disrespect intended. I was simply replying to this - "I believe intuitively we all know who "superior" and "inferior" people are..." I agree that what we are talking about is behavior and yet, the terms superior and inferior are simply an individual, social, or cultural judgement. Exactly my point. Preferable perhaps but not superior. For example, let's say I have a terrible pain in my abdomen - is this superior or inferior to a crown shakra orgasm? Now let's dig deeper and find that I have acute appendicitis and the pain allowed me to have an emergency appendectomy which prevented me from dying the very unpleasant death from acute peritonitis. Is the pain still inferior? They are not the same, they are not homogonous, they are varied and fascinating and wonderful and horrible. Yet, what do we mean by superior and inferior? Pleasure and pain are physiological responses of organisms that assist in the survival mechanism, nothing more. Humans intellectualize the process which leads to sufferring and indulgence, that's all. Our instinct for survival combined with our tendency to compare makes us call life superior and death inferior. But are they? Do they exist independent of one another such that comparison is really meaningful? Sure pleasure is preferrable to pain, that's how we've been designed to react. But what does superior mean? Aren't superior and inferior opposite sides of the same coin called comparison? Isn't that what Taiji (not Taijiquan) teaches us? THere is no superior without inferior. They arise mutually, they are one, they are simply judgement and comparison. THere's nothing inherently wrong with that but distinction is illusion. PS I love Wish You Were Here! Possibly my favorite Pink FLoyd album. I think those lyrics are tongue in cheek and challenging our illusion of distinction - "do you think you can tell?" Quite the contrary - understanding the inherent folly of the game allows one to indulge in it fully, without undue fear of consequences, without the attachment to the outcome. Immersing in the experience is what there is, and yet, in the end - what difference does it make? Life is now, death is later, and the cycle repeats. Belief in the concept of maya does not necessarily imply detatchment or irresponsibility. It's simply a perspective that allows for acceptance - an attitude consistent with wu wei. What is wu wei if not acceptance? Once acceptance is there, I find there is more freedom to choose my actions based on values rather than conditioning. In this way, I can lead the life I choose to lead - a "superior" life, you might call it. ALthough I continue to challenge the concept of absolute superiority. I enjoy debating with you Taomeow - it challenges me and expands my horizons. Are you able to define the final goals of Daoism, Zen, and Buddhism? Would your definitions apply to all Daoists and Buddhists? This exercise could be instructive.

I have a friend who is a Jainist. Their perspective on milk is very interesting. She once asked me to think of another living organism that consumes the milk of a different species, not only as an infant, but throughout adult life. It got me thinking... I mainly drink soy, hemp, and rice milk now... I just like the taste better. I still like cheese though - unpasteurized when possible.

Who is superior, an orphaned Sudanese refugee starving in Kakuma or the abbott of a Daoist monastery? I think that cultural and social biases and judgements are so deeply ingrained in us that we can't help but make such distinctions and judgements all the time. There is no absolute superiority or inferiority just relative judgement. I don't think we hide from such judgements, we are immersed in them like a fish in the sea. I don't find it scary at all, sometimes sad maybe. It's all Maya. But it's fine, the comparison game is there to be played for as long as we choose to believe it.

That's the tame version. There's also a XXX version floating around out there...

One of the primary functions of the human mind is to make comparisons and judgements. It's very valuable in choosing places to sleep, safe foods to eat, which animals to pursue and which to flee, which job is more lucrative, who to mate with, and so forth. If you look carefully at thought you may find that it does relatively little beyond comparing and judging. It is why we are so "successful" as a species. How meaningful is it to compare and judge different spiritual and religious traditions? Aren't they just human ideas that try (yet must always fail) to capture that which can never be fully captured? Perhaps one who has completely mastered both Daoism and Zen could make meaningful comparisons. I doubt that anyone on this forum is truly qualified to make such judgements. How many humans have mastered both Daoism and Zen? Or either? Even then, of what value is it to make such comparisons? Are Zen masters lesser beings than Daoist masters? If so, is that an absolute truth or a relative one? Why are Daoist ideas preferrable to Zen ideas? Is this a relative or absolute? I don't mean to be argumentative or disrespectful. I just question the entire concept of best or better, particularly in spiritual matters. I chose to follow Dao, you choose to follow Zen. When we move far enough along the path we realize that there is no separatation between us. The separation is the very illusion we are "each" trying to transcend. We are "I". So how can there be a meaningful difference between our myths?

I haven't read any of Chia's stuff. Here is an excellent book on standing: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/067...50/grewayres-20 Zhan Zhuang basically means standing meditation. Most people translate it as stand like a post. Here's a nice brief link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang The combination I mentioned is easy if each posture is held for a minute or two, tougher if each is held for 5 minutes, quite challenging at 10 and above.

I disagree. I think the Zen tradition did a marvelous job of distilling and simplifying the practical and functional elements of Daoist methods at the same time adapting it to the Japanese social and cultural context. Much like Chinese Buddhism did with Hinduism.

I can't say that I've read Mantak Chia's description but I think this is a very useful Zhan Zhuang. I don't usually practice it isolated but in a series of postures. 1. Basic zhan zhuang 2. hug the tree 3. palms overhead 4. palms out to sides 5. basic zhan zhuang Hug the tree is extremely useful in developing internal martial skill.

A word

Prince, If you have a sincere interest in a long term meditation practice, I'd recommend that you do whatever it takes to find a credible teacher - there are good teachers in most geographical area. Learning from a random committee of strangers with a wide variety of knowledge, traditions, and skills on an internet forum combined with a cornucopia of books is unlikely to be fruitful. As other have said, it would be better to just sit and breathe and simply be there. All the information and jargon presented in these scholarly posts is of less value than an hour's honest practice to the beginning student. Don't get me wrong, there is some really expert and eloquent discussion on this post by folks much more knowledeable than me. My point is that it is unlikely to be value to you right now. In the beginning you need very basic instruction in a single, credible method, and to stick with that method for a long time, being occasionally corrected and guided as you progress, by someone who is expert in that particular method. Another option - read To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti. He will teach you why there is no method that will get you where you think you want to go. Good luck, Steve

I believe that during life, our physical bodies are bound by certain limitations that are characteristic of physical organisms living on our planet. Beyond that, anything is possible. I also believe that civility is a quality worthy of cultivation. Thanks for your post Mewtwo and please continue to share your ideas with us. Participation in this forum does not insure or require considerate or compassionate behavior, unfortunately. That takes a degree of mindullness and effort that is apparently beyond some of us, irrespective of our ability to sit in the full lotus posture.

Many things that words just don't capture although Taomeow's eloquence comes pretty damn close! One thing I like to tell my students is that standing and practicing the form lead to a level of mind/body/spirit integration that otherwise they would not experience. The benefits are for them to experience and determine. I find it tricky to describe potential "benefits" without giving them "goals" to seek that can actually frustrate them and interfere with their practice. It sounds trite but better to practice because you enjoy it and experience the benefits for yourself if and when they arise. I find the same in discussing meditation with other practitioners. Once you plant the idea of a desired outcome or experience in someone's mind they become attached to it and it can do more harm than good. I'm really glad to hear that you're enjoying your practice. I've only ever been taught Taiji forms on one side. After a few years of practicing I asked my teacher if we should practice on both sides. He looked at me like I was a fool and said OF COURSE! I did for a while but at this point I don't because I practice each of the techniques on both sides regularly with a partner from a martial perspective anyway so it's not really necessary to do it in the form. Perhaps the form was looked at as a vehicle for transmitting the movements and achieving the variety of benefits we experience from the slow motion training (mind/body integration and so forth). In the old days, most of the training was individual postures trained with a partner for martial skill according to most historical sources. The form is a relatively new development. For those that study only the form and only for health benefits, I do think that a more symmetric Taiji form would be of value, much like most Qigong sets. Every Qigong set I do is symmetric. Finally, I think that working through the mirror image of the form is an excellent mental exercise and is worth the time and effort.

That's fine, I certainly do disagree with... That's simply false and is unfortunately a wide spread fantasy propogated by people who don't really understand internal martial arts. Tai Ji is hard and soft, as is Xing Yi and Ba Gua. No martial style is all soft. Throwing doesn't require a lot of muscle power when done properly, it's timing and leverage. Now, if a 70 year old guy beat up an MMA guy, I'd be convinced! I think you are understanding me correctly. I am not going counter to core ideas of internal styles. I am going counter to the idealistic, unrealistic ideas about internal styles that some people have propogated inaccurately. Anyone who trains in applying Tai Ji, Xing Yi, and Ba Gua in the street or the ring will attest to this. It's only people who haven't tested their art in competition or combat, who fantasize a fighting method which is all soft. Even Cheng Man Ching - look at this video on youtube. Check out ~ 1:00 when it gets to the pushing demonstration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_611ZXXuA This is all muscle power. He's using his arms to push his opponent with external muscular force. In fact, this is not even a good demonstration of an, this is all external force. An means to push down or to sink the palms and is a short range, fajin strike. In an the hands only move a few inches. Not at all what Master Cheng is doing in this video... Master Cheng's arms are pushing outward a good 2 feet! I'm sure he was a great martial artist but this push is not an example of his skill, IMO. Anyway, enough debate. It would be much better if we could get together and discuss and share in person where we could demonstrate techniques in a friendly way and try to make our points and convince eachother. Doing this in words in cyberspace is usually a futile exercise. I wish you the best in your training! I'd be happy to carry this on by PM or email, if you want to explore it further. In public, I just feel like I'm ranting and being argumentative at this point. That's not my intention and I don't want to appear arrogant or unfriendly. Thanks for the interesting discussion my friend! Song Yong Dao - sorry for hijacking your thread!! _/\_

No book needed - we're working from this link http://www.satramana.org/html/forty_verses_on_reality.htm

Why don't we hang out with 18 for a while longer and see what happens. Perhaps some other Bums with chime in and help shed some light on this. I think it's better to sit with these for a while than to move on for the sake of getting through these... I think 18 is very important. He seems to be comparing what it means to be 'enlightened' with 'not enlightened.' He says that they both see the same world and the same reality. THe difference between them is very small, simply a matter of perspective. To those who haven't realized, "Truth is adapted to the measure of the world." Maybe this means that "Truth" is limited to the perception and awareness of the physical world and thoughts as being separate from the self. Whereas others have "realized" something else. He calls it the "Formless Perfection" and the "Substratum of the World." What could these mean? THis is a tough one for sure. To me this is pointing to the connection between the one who realizes and that which is realized. That is the substratum, the formless perfection. The mutual arising between self and other, observer and observed. Tai Ji? This is formless and ineffable yet the mutual arising is certainly perfection and awareness, not mine or yours, but the existence of awareness itself (remember awareness is just a word, not really the thing) could be the substratum of the world. Does that make any sense? Anyone else out there want to help out? Putting this stuff into words is tough! But fun...

I agree with you completely on this point and I understand what you're saying. I also think that with proper instruction and enough time, you come to the same endpoint whether you find the hard in soft (internal) or find the soft in the hard (external). They converge at the highest levels. Internals are focused on the mind/body connection so the mechanics and whole body connection come early, that's why the training is often slow and involves a lot of meditation, whether standing, sitting, or walking. Unfortunately, a lot of people think that soft is all that is necessary. THey're in for a rude awakening. It is a misconception that you defeat the hard with only the soft. You learn to yield to the hard (that in a sense is overcoming the hard with the soft). However, and I think this is critical, you don't defeat the opponent with the soft. There must be the hard to attack and disable or defeat the opponent. I yield to your force and neutralize it, then what? Maybe I'll pluck you with very little force but that will not end a violent conflict. I must attack with great force to disable a skilled opponent. That's why it's so important to develop power, be it through fajin training and neigong and martial qigong or weight lifting or a combination. Effective power doesn't magically appear due to meditation or form practice. It requires training and at least some degree of physical strength. Muscles must contract rapidly and forcefully to transmit the force. THe point I'm trying to emphasize is that Tai Ji Quan (and the other internals) is not soft boxing. Maybe most English speakers would be better off thinking of it as Yin/Yang boxing or even hard/soft boxing. It is balanced, like Yin and Yang. People always call Tai Ji Quan 'Supreme Ultimate Boxing". I think that's a terrible translation. When the native Chinese speaker hears Tai Ji, he does not hear the English equivalent of "Supreme Ultimate." He thinks of the Daoist philosophical principles of yin and yang and wu wei and all that complex concept entails. The words Tai Ji are bursting with meaning. Supreme Ultimate just sounds like 'the greatest thing since swiss cheese" - the translation does a terrible dis-service to the art, IMO. To use Tai Ji principles in real combat, or even a friendly push hands match, requires a balance of force and yielding, hard and soft. Sorry to be so wordy and dogmatic but I can get quite passionate talking about my favorite subject!

Do we know that he never did more strenuous exercise than Tai Ji? It's possible. Is he truly one of "the greatest internal players"? Perhaps - he's certainly one of the most well known since he was one of the first to teach on a wide scale in the US and Taiwan. Some proclaim his martial skill, others suggest that his skill was more in the arts and health arena - I have no idea which is more accurate. For the sake of discussion, let's assume he was one of the greatest, that's one...

I tend to organize my schedule based on what my body tells me. It varies a bit as I don't have enough time to practice everything every day. Here's my approximate schedule: 5-6am seated meditation Followed by: Qi Gong (Gu Chuan Ba Duan Jin or Shi Ba Luo Han) Strengthening training for ji, an, cai, lu Tai Ji form for 40-60 minutes (lately Chen Pan Ling's form) Nei Gong or Zhan Zhuang ~ 20 min If I have extra time I'll add weapons forms. Usually I do the weapons later in the evening at the school. I don't do any weights but I think building muscle tone and bulk can be very helpful as long as it's balanced with stretching and not overdone. I disagree with the statement that the greatest internal players did no hard exercises at all. Most of them were already extremely skilled external artists who later studied internals. Very few of the greats did nothing but soft and we really don't know much about their personal training routines other than legend and hearsay... Our internal program at advanced levels has a fair amount of strengthening exercise utilizing training aids for those serious about martial training, not necessarily weight lifting but strengthening exercises nonetheless. Good luck!

Jade Rabbit - It's great to see you beginning Tai Ji practice. Good luck! It's worth the effort. Here's a perspective I'd like to share, FWIW. The brain's job is to 'understand' things. It takes in info, compares it to memory and knowledge, then creates an image and stores it. At some point, it accepts an image as reality, feels secure that it 'understands' reality as a result and moves on. It does this with everything! You think flower, the image in your brain pops up, and you think you know what flower is. But do you really? Or do you just feel comfortble because you've seen several before and you 'understand' it and know if it's harmful or helpful or neutral, so you know how to deal with 'flower' and you can move on. If it's something new - you aren't secure until you know if it's harmful, helpful, or neutral and so the cycle repeats itself. In practicing Tai Ji, Nei Gong, Qi Gong, Zhan Zhuang (standing meditation), Jing Zuo (sitting meditation) and so forth, your brain will struggle to do the same and that is one of the things that makes it so challenging to persist in practice without giving up, looking for a different practice and so forth. But what if you do 'understand' what's going on? Do you really? Does it matter? Does understanding really help? Is it really meaningful in this area? Can you 'understand' a practice like this after a month or two or ten years? These are experiential practices. You benefit from them by the doing, not so much by the analysis or 'understanding'. The practices are likely to improve your understanding of a lot of things in your life and in the world over time and 'understanding' the practices themselves to a large degree is part of that process and will come in stages over time as well. So I think it's important to find a teacher that you have confidence in and trust that they're guiding you properly. That is critical. The teacher and student, and their relationship, IMO, is more importatn even that the style (provided that it's, at least, a credible style). Give yourself over to the practice for a while (6 months at least, this is a slow process) and let your whole being, mind and body, experience how it changes as you progress. Try not to let the mind trick you with it's 'understanding' because that's really nothing more than a very useful survival skill that keeps us farther from harmful stuff and closer to beneficial stuff. I think all of us would pretty much agree that Tai Ji, Qi Gong, Nei Gong, and meditation practices are helpful when done with a qualified teacher so be comfortable that you are secure in these practices. I hope that helps in some way. Enjoy the journey! Don't get too hung up on the destination, it will be there when you get there. In fact you are already always there, but that's for a different post... Best regards,

Nice photos Lin! You look very dashing. Maybe the dust particles, water particles, and environmental influences that are causing the photo aberrations are actually just that. And just maybe, they are where they are and when they are due to the influences of underlying energetic phenomenon... That is, what causes the dust or droplets to be present there and then as opposed to elsewhere and elsewhen? At some level, it is the result of some energetic phenomenon. It seems to me that the difference between the explanations of 'science' and 'new age' (for lack of a better pair of distinctive words) is the fact that the scientists think they understand the phenomenon as fully as possible through their paradigm and the new agers think that they understand it through a different paradigm. Both are simply images created by human thought used to represent reality. We feel more secure when we can convince ourselves that we 'understand' the phenomenon we experience - this is a very important job of human thought. But all we really do is create a mental image and label it. The image is not the thing! Both paradigms are incomplete and to attach to either is illusion. So what if the aberrations represent energy? Why is that so special? Everything is energy. So what if it's dust and water particles coalescing - aren't dust and water particles miraculous enough for us? Do we really think we undertand dust or water particles simply because we've labeled them and have an image of them?