doc benway

Hi alfa, Nice post! I think this is an excellent area of inquiry! I agree fully with the doctrine of acceptance. And yet, one still has the opportunity to make choices. In my view, acceptance means to open oneself to experience - visual, auditory, tactile, thought, emotional, and so forth. Not to fight or resist or hide or suppress frightening, embarassing, or painful thoughts and emotions, but to be with them fully without fighting. Not to struggle and fret over bad things that happen but to experience them, accept them, and live fully. Nevertheless, this is not equivalent to being completely passive and doing nothing. It means more to fully understand through opening and then choosing wisely based on personal values. For example, I would not allow a child to drown in a pool because nature put her there. Nature put me there as well, so I will choose to help. I believe that the realization of the futility of struggle and the mindfullness required of meaningful and ongoing acceptance is a transformation by itself for most of us. Action based on values rather than conditioned patterns is further transformation. True and profound acceptance is the ultimate transformation and is essentially immortality.

I disagree. I think it's more a matter of perspective. I think that you're creating some "ideal" Daoist entity in China that perhaps best exists in the minds of those who don't live there. The philosophy and intention may be humanistic yet the implementation and outcome has not been, historically, with any consistency. Similarly, although the superficial and liturgical aspects of Indo-European traditions may be 'anti-human', particularly when corrupted by institutions, the spirit is not necessarily so. I learned this in part from reading Anthony Dimello. He gave me a very different perspective of Catholicism and enlightenment. Hinduism and Zen, in particular are completely and solely human, albeit from a different cultural and sociological perspective. Wonderful and salient post, as always, Mat. Our attachment to Daoism, it's practices and philosophy, it's strengths and achievements, are still just attachments of the mind, nonetheless. Not much different from attachments to people, things, pleasures, pain, and so forth. In fact, philosophical and spiritual attachment is often more intense and subtle and difficult to shrug off! I love the irony of examining our intense attachment to the philosophies that ask us to recognize and let go of all attachment! In my view, there is little separation between the major religious and philosophical traditions when one digs into the core values, principles, and admonitions...

I don't know about different from the rest in that regard... Buddhism is a science as well. I'm not Buddhist but I've had enough in depth discussions with Buddhists and read enough to know that their approach is very scientific in a way quite analogous to Daoism. Although the Buddhists seem to be more concerned with human emotion than the Daoists. Our scientists have accepted this reality since Heisenberg - nearly 100 years... One major difference is that the science of Daoism accepts first hand, 'subjective' experience that is not independently verifiable whereas 'Western science' prefers 'objective' measurements that are as reproducible among multiple observers as possible. I'm not supporting one or the other. I have a foot in each camp. Both have a role in their respective realms. That's a very cool bit of trivia - I didn't know that. Thanks! The whole idea of Daoism being different is an interesting one to explore. Is it really that different? Aren't all religions and philosophies basically the same? They are the action of human thought attempting to investigate and explain that which is beyond comprehension and explanation. All systems are creations of human thought and experience - that's it. Sure, they have different methods and approaches but they are all still limited to the arena of human thought and experience. Why is jing/qi/shen different from prana, tantra, ohm, "who am I", Kabbala and so forth?

19. Only those who have no knowledge of the Source of destiny and free-will dispute as to which of them prevails. They that know the Self as the one Source of destiny and free-will are free from both. Will they again get entangled in them? The first part makes sense - if the self is also the SELF, then destiny and free-will are one and the same because everything has it's source in the SELF. If they are one and the same, what concern is there for them? Will they again get entangled in them? Does this mean - the awareness of the source of destiny and free-will can come and go? Does it refer to rebirth? This is very interesting...

Take Osho's writings with a heaping tablespoon of salt! I personally resonate deeply with his commentaries on Zhuangzi and Liezi but I pay little attention to much else. His sexual practices would be particularly suspect, IMO, due to his history of sexual exploitation of his 'disciples.' He was a very insightful guy who I think fell victim to his celebrity and power, as do many 'gurus.' As a novel, I really enjoyed Daniel Odier's Tantric Quest. I've never practiced so I can't help you beyond that. If you're serious about it you should probably look for a credible guru. Good luck.

Agreed... There seems to be some belief that, once "awakened", suddenly the world is different. I think he is saying that it's more like the perspective is different. Awakened or not, the world is the world. A car will crush your foot, your children will make you cry, food can be delicious. And yet there is the perspective of something beyond, that suffuses and includes everything including the body, the sense of self, and so on, that just makes it feel different. This is why all of the magic, the extraordinairy experiences, the ghosts and spirits, and all that supernatural stuff rings false and empty for me... all of that is just part of the world, our thoughts, hopes, dreams, desires, fears, and so on...

I'm feeling much better, thanks! The worst part of the entire ordeal was a bad reaction to one of the antibiotics... I'm definitely on the mend but can't train hard for ~ 2 months - ARGGHHH! Well, once my mind and body are cleared of the medicines, I'll at least have more time to devote to meditation. Anyway - I think you're exactly right with your comments. All of the major religions point to the unity of self with God. I think Ramana is pointing out the fact that, until there is direct experience of this, there is a slightly more limiting perspective of the self ending at the boundary of the skin and thoughts. Once you have the experience of truly being more than that, not the idea but the experience, then the sense of being the body remains, yet there is an additional dimension of the identification with or experience of the universe sort of experiencing itself through the body. I don't know if that makes it more or less clear. It's hard to put into words but, once you feel it, there's no mistaking it and no going back... I think that one of the primary functions of prayer, meditation, self inquiry, cultivation, and so forth is to create an environment where this sort of experience is more likely to occur.

I use them periodically. Seems to help with the occasionally cramping and stiffness I get in the hands.

Good point... Where does "I" end and everything else begin? At the border of "my" skin? Why would that be? Isn't that just a delusion created by our sensory apparatus? What is there apart from "me"? Is there a world separate and apart from us or are we continuous with it? These questions are more important to "me" than spirits and immortal teachers and dreams of nirvana and everlasting bliss. Max et al's presentation has elicited strong emotions, both pro and con. I said my piece many months ago and don't see any point in fanning the flames, particularly since a lot of people find the practice valuable. After all is said and done, he teaches a method like many others teach methods. A method is a creation of human thought, nothing more - nothing less. All methods are as valuable as the practitioner determines them to be through information and experience. Fortunately, we can pick and choose what methods we wish to spend out time, money, and energy on. Good luck to everyone on whatever path they choose!

There are actually orthopedists out there who evaluate patients and try to help them using any and all means at their disposal, including surgery where necessary. An orthopedist I know quite well employs and utilizes a nutritionist, acupuncturist, massage therapist, physical therapist, occupational therapist, and uses psychological, meditative, and energy techniques with his patients. Orthopedists are PHYSICIANS who have the additional training to allow them to do surgery when non-surgical treatment is not effective. Certainly some are too aggressive, some not aggressive enough, just like any other healer. I would urge people to put aside preconceived notions and give healers of all kinds a chance to help them understand their options, whether they be allopaths, naturopaths, or whatever. This sort of bias against surgeons is quite common and often leads to patients not having the opportunity to explore all available treatment options. Sometimes this can lead to poorer long term results. It's funny that medical doctors and other therapists often feel a need to 'protect' their patients from surgeons. Some surgeons have a similar perspective toward medical docs. There are valid concerns in both arenas... There is no question that there are good and bad healers of all persuasions. It's not only surgeons who can do harm... Peace and love and good luck with your shoulder, Cloud.

Well said steam! I'd like to add to that the additional dimension of quiet mind during slow movement maintaining presence of mind in movment, as in Taiji, Bagua, even Xingyi, and certainly Yi Quan. This is what is meant by finding stillness in movement and movement in stillness, I think. Also, sitting meditation is important as well. There are sitting meditation, standing meditation, and moving meditation - all three critical in internal development in my experience.

I don't study this style but here's some info http://www.iliqchuan.org/

Nice!

"You" can never know because "you" do not exist there... If "you" are there, it is illusion. Just my $.02.

My perspective as a married man with children and a profession and a thirst for physical, intellectual, and spiritual challenge. Personal cultivation is a wonderful thing. It challenges me endlessly on physical, mental, and spiritual levels. I have managed to incorporate them into my busy life. My family has suffered for it to some degree but I like to think they also benefit. I look at having a family as an important part of a fulfilling life for me. Not everyone feels the desire. The joys and heartbreaks of a long term relationship and raising children are infinitely more intense to me than the highest highs or lowest lows of cultivation. I would not have a fraction of my understanding and appreciation for life without being a parent and husband. It has been the source of some of my greatest pain and challenges. On the other hand, it provides the greatest rewards one can dream of. Nevertheless, personal cultivation remains an extremely important part of my life. It gives me an opportunity to be totally selfish and work on myself. It helps to balance me. There is a reason why cultivators go off to live as hermits for serious meditation in Chinese, Japanese, and Indian cultures (not to mention Western culture). Maintaining a very rigorous schedule of training is extremely difficult while living in society and providing for a family. On the other hand, some of these cultures also appreciate the value of experiencing the more "mundane" aspects of life either before or after the cultivation practice.

Taijiquan is much more physically (and mentally) demanding than it looks. Take it slow - the persistent tortoise beats the hare every time!

I bought this book a while ago and haven't gotten around to reading it. Maybe this will give me the motivation I need. First, though, I've got to finish the book I'm currently reading called "What is the What" by David Eggers - an amazing biography about one of the "lost boys" of Sudan - gripping stuff!

The standing practice shows - nice! Four of the eight basic taiji techniques are peng, lu, ji, and an - ward off, rollback, press, push down. One of the practices in pushing hands includes the combination of peng, lu, ji, and an into a continuous moving circle that allows both participants to explore applications of these basic four movements while developing sensitivity, sticking, and so forth. Here's a clip: it's the circling at the beginning.

Thanks for the video links - very nice to see you and your friend. Your central equilibrium is good - do you stand regularly? Do you practice the peng/lu/ji/an circle? Best, Steve

"You" can do nothing to transcend - "you" are what "you" are trying to transcend. The doing perpetuates the illusion. It is better to just sit and breath and smile. How does one become what they already always are? How does the thought "I am" extinguish itself? One interesting exercise is to spend some time looking at who it is that you are? Who is asking that question? Who wants to know who is asking the question? See if "you" can pin that down.... When you are tired of it, site, smile, breath...

Good credentials and I skimmed a few of his papers. He could be what you are looking for. Certainly worth a visit. Good luck!

You haven't even started practicing anything with him/her and you're worrying about additional training. Take a step back. See if you can focus just on the process of meeting this teacher. Really try to be there with him/her. Talk to them about your hopes and aspirations from your practice. What are you looking for? Ask their advice. Don't be too focused on what you think you want or need in practice. Open yourself up to the experience a bit. If you've already decided what you think you need, you will miss the opportunity to relate to this teacher and see if they are what you are looking for. Just my $.02.

That's exactly what it was for me, cat. The knowledge of what is needed for proper foundation training vs what you can get from a few days in a seminar. Not something I would spend money on - whether for myself or a friend.

Feel the gentle attatchment of a string to the crown of the head (directly above the ears in the coronal plane and bisecting the head in the sagittal plane). This feeling gently asks the crown of the head to rise, effortlessly. This causes a subtle elongation of the Cspine and slight lowering and pulling back of the chin (millimeters). The lifting energy further extends down to the lowest point of the torso causing a gentle lessening of the lumbar spine curvature making it feel relaxed and open. Relax the shoulders. Feel bouyant at the top and rooted at the bottom. Play with it for a while and eventually you'll know the feeling - it will evolve and become more skillful with months and years of practice. Hope this helps.

The truth is a pathless land J. Krishnamurti