doc benway

Very well said and I'm in complete agreement with much of your argument. Here I'll have to disagree - many allopathic disease labels are very real insofar as the labeling of a constellation of symptoms and physical abnormalities can lead to successful alleviation and often cure of those systems whereas recognizing and treating the cause may be impossible, too late, or of no value. For example, if coronary artery stenosis from years of smoking, poor diet, and lack of exercise have led to acute myocardial infarction, allopathic intervention is more likely to be of value than altering behavior. Just because allopathic disease labels don't always address root causes or the holistic view of the individual doesn't mean that they aren't real or lack utility. The term arthritis was never meant to be a specific diagnosis or, at least, it is not used as such by knowledgable practitioners like rheumatologists and orthopedists - it is misused by laypersons and less specialized physicians alike. It simply means joint inflammation. Now there are specific arthritides that have consistent and specific enough groups of symptoms and physical findings to qualify as specific disease entities which can be a valuable guide to healers of various persuasions (ie Rheumatoid arthritis, Reiter's, psoriatic,...) even though the etiology, though well characterized, is still somewhat ambiguous at a deep, holistic level. I completely agree with your last point. There are way too many "clinical syndromes" which are nothing more than labels that doctors use to satisfy their patients' demands to know 'what's wrong' - fibromyalgia is a perfect example - unfortunately, our allopaths are not generally comfortable with "I don't know" type answers - something that should be more supported professionally and socially, IMO. When you get right down to it, we can analyze every symptom and disease process just like we address the Advaita method of "who am I?" - for each level of explanation, there is always another layer of the onion to peel back until we realize that illness and death are as much a part of existence as living and health. Certainly things can be modified to optimize health and longetivity but there is a limit to what can (and should, IMO) be done. We fight death and illness as if they are our enemy rather than accepting them as the inevitable part of existence that they are. It's always nice conversing with you Karen!

There is no separation between physical and spiritual. There is no separation between form and substance. It is all process. Separation is illusion. That is why spiritual remedies and non-spiritual remedies alike have successes, failures, and respective roles in the treatment of illness, IMO.

That's what George Bush says, too.... Skepticism can be healthy as well. Thanks Karen, I do appreciate your time and patience with me but still have no idea how writing down a word in English or any other language is meaningful - maybe I'm just dense. From my perspective, much of what you say regarding allopathic medicine has legitimate implications but, unfortunately, the gratuitous solutions that are offered as an alternative are rarely any better and often times useless, other than for the one profiting. I refer here to legitimate illnesses, not psychological or emotional expressions which, unfortunately, are often mistreated by allopaths. I have an open mind to allopathic and alternative practices and do not discount either enitrely, yet both have strengths and limitations. I'm not criticizing your practice but rather referring to the potential for exploitation in this arena in general. No worries - I was just hoping to understand something new...

I love Alan Watts' recordings. A friend loaned me a set of his CDs called Out of Your Mind - great stuff!

I take a very similar approach. When something is tense and attracting my attention during meditation, I'll give it my full attention. I will open myself completely to how it feels without worry, judement, comparison, or analysis - just feel it totally and perhaps offer the area a bit of compassion or gratitude. It may take time but should eventually relax.

Hi Karen, I'm curious as to what is the basis for ascribing some special significance to a name. In my mind, the name is nothing more than a label and can be changed at will. The word flower has no aroma, the word food will not help the starving, the name Karen does not allow me to know who you are. In my view, the name has no special significance, it is simply an artificial construct that can be altered at will - perhaps what is significant is simply the intention of the practitioner. In that case, what is the need for writing down the word? The word is nothing more than a visual representation of the thought. I know there is a long history of such talismanic word "magic" in many shamanic traditions, including Daoism, but that doesn't necessarily imply value. Thanks for listening, Steve

http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/

Please take a look at the new Book Club guidelines. We've decided to open it up to allow any members to post a book they'd like to talk about. Take a look at the guidelines before posting - they're quite simple. Thanks to Adeha for the idea!

Updated guidelines: We're going to open this subforum up to all the members who would like to post a discussion topic on the book of their choice. Please follow these simple guidelines: 1. Post the title of the book and author as the topic title. Feel free to abbreviate if the title is long but try to make it clear what is being discussed. 2. In the first post in your book topic, lead off with the full title, the author's full name, and a link to the book on a retail site if possible, to facilitate others getting the book. 3. In the first post, also include a brief summary of why you chose the book, what it's about, and when you would like to begin the discussion. 4. We'll leave these topics ongoing so that people can dig up old threads and continue discussions as they read books that might interest the group. Many thanks to Adeha for the idea.

Thanks to everyone who voted. We have chosen Revealing the Tao Te Ching: In-depth Commentaries on an Ancient Classic by Hu Xuezhi for the next book club book.

This is one of the most profound attitudes that I derived from reading Castaneda's books 30 years ago. That was my first exposure to this mindset which has served me well. Just now it occurs to me to ask in response - if this was your very first breath, your first experience, how would you go about living it? Is this approach useful in some way as well?

Amazing video! What a courageous person.

I started practicing martial arts when I was 12 years old. I've never been away from it for more than a year or two since then. It's so much a part of me that I really can't say why I do it. I love it - fitness, spirituality, psychology, friendship, community, self defense, and so on. Just tonight, a bunch of us were chatting in the locker room after class. One of my fellow instructors said something like - "I consider us more family than friends... when the depression comes, what can we do to help each other get through the tough times ahead" (referring to the US's economic woes). Hopefully he's being a bit paranoid but the point is that this is everything you've described and much more. Yes, I have found what I was looking for and much that I wasn't.

This is one of the most fundamental lessons conveyed in nearly every major religious tradition - Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, Hindu,... Unconditional love Each and every one of us is God, Dao, Buddha, (call it what you will) what else can we possibly be? What is unconditional love if not a recognition of that fact - genuinely feeling (and behaving) as if each and every person and thing is not separate from yourself? In Daoism, it is a bit more subtle, but if you get down to it, how does it differ from wu wei?

Nice one! I'm a youngish 47! This is the completion of my fourth cycle...

Thanks for the link. THose interested may also want to check out http://www.savetibet.org/. I've been a supporter and activist with their organization for a long time. They're 100% legit, not implying that Pero's link is not.

This is a most important and difficult question to consider, IMO. Here I go pontificating again - sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to say what I want to say about these things succinctly. I'm beginning to think that it may not always be a service or even a compassionate act to assist, encourage, or cause someone to step onto the spiritual path. It is a demanding, frustrating, and potentially hazardous path. Clearly there can be benefits along the way - the physiologic benefits of a variety of practices, the calming effects, the psychological and emotional stability that may develop. HOWEVER - what is the spiritual path really? What is it's purpose? Where does it take us? Is it worthwhile? These are questions that I've been wrestling with for a while now. They do not have straightforward answers. I think it is important for each of us to answer those questions for ourselves. The spiritual path starts with a feeling that what presently is, is not enough. The existing feeling or understanding, or emotional state, or level of interaction with the environment, or relatioship with others - the relationship with God or whatever you want to call it. Something is missing. But isn't this what the mind always does? THis is what the mind is expert at, convincing itself that there is something more, something else, or better. THere is some state or experience that will result in a more profound understanding or relationship, a better life. Here and now and what is, are not good enough. This thought is critical in helping us to find food, clothing, safety from the elements, a mate, but when it ventures into the realm of psychology, emotion, and 'gulp' spirituality, how well does it function? So isn't what is preventing us from being satisfied and enchanted with what is here and now, simply the search itself, the desire for more or better or deeper? The desire for more pleasure or less pain? The boredom with what is all around us because we think we know it already and understand it? The yearning for an answer to the difficult questions? The thought that there is something better is intimately related to the sense of a self that is separate from and unsatisfied with what is. That self is what defines other. That state of searching is what prevents simply being at peace with what is. And what is an 'enlightened' person other than someone who appears to be at peace with what is? The search is necessarily endless because one can never be anything other than what one already is, here and now. No matter where we are, there is always the thought - there is somewhere else where all is better. The search itself is the very illusion that the search intends to transcend. It promises something different in the future, something other than what is. But it is always now and here. Tomorrow never comes. It is always today. So I am finding it increasingly difficult to want to introduce anyone to the spiritual path because, in many ways, my view of the path is that which I must be rid of. While on the path, I am defining a state of inadequecy or disatisfaction with my existence. Without the path, I'm already here. I'm here and it's now and I'm alive and I'm aware and that in and of itself is beautiful and miraculous. Everying else is simply thought and stories. And the stories are fine and good but they're still just stories. Reality is what is, here and now. Now despite saying all that, I'm still on this forum and I still read spiritual books and so forth - so what the fuck is wrong with me? I have no clue! I guess I'm not here yet... Many 'gurus', including some I admire the most, are quick to point out that there is no path to the truth, there is no value in the guru, there is no method or practice that can yield enlightenment. Yet everyone one of them practiced and searched for years before realizing that fact. So there is a paradox - on the one hand, there is no path but, on the other hand, they all spent a lot of time and effort on that path before realizing it was illusory. So do you really want to introduce someone you love to this path? It's worth some real consideration, IMO.

The simplicity of your posts always have such a calming effect... Well put, In the book "The Question to Life's Answers", Steven Harrison says: "Aren't those so-called enlightened beings defined as such by those of us who choose to define ourselves as unenlightened?"

Exorcist_1699 - Please help me to understand your motivation here. What's the point in condemning a practice you have no interest in and no experience with? If you would like to try it, try it. If not, that's fine. There are endless other possibilities. Why bother to post about something you have no interest in learning about it? Why put forth an opinion without any experience to support your view? That does no good for you and no good for others. This is not an attack - I'm just curious. I think that the methods that show us our true self threaten the illusion that we are so attached to - the dramatic, the magical, the traditional. At some level, that is difficult to deal with - it is/was for me.

Hi Adeha, Thanks very much for your input. I created a topic called Book Chat which is specifically for individuals who want to discuss books other than the "group" selection. Another option would be to create a topic for each book that individuals would like to discuss as you have suggested. I'd be happy to give that a try to see how it works. Let's try this - anyone who wants to lead or initiate a discussion on a particular book that they find of value will be asked to post the book information (title, author, brief description) in the Book Chat topic. I will then create a separate topic for that book to be used for further discussion. Does that sound like something worth trying to everyone? Should we abandon the selection of a "book club" group selection altogether? It certainly isn't getting much attention on the forum and I agree that the whole selection process seems to be taking some of the fun out of the venture. Adeha's suggestion may work better for the variety of interests on the forum. Thanks again Adeha! Please give me some feedback everyone.

What's the point? Have a nice day!

Please vote for your second book club selection by Friday 3/14. Thanks!

Please note that due to a tie in voting as of 3/14, there is now a new topic with a run off vote for the tied selections. Please visit that topic and cast your vote if you haven't already. I'm going to close this thread now. Thanks