doc benway

I think that there are two aspects to being human. There is the finite aspect which is the illusion of "me" created by thoughts, memories, and physical sensations. This is the illusory or temporary aspect. Then there is the infinite aspect. That which was never born and never dies. True reality. Living humans are both yet the awareness of each component varies. I sort of look at the living experience of the non-dual component as "enlightenment." But both components are always there. Enlightenment does not make the other part disappear, only death does that. I interpreted Taomeow's comment as implying that the human condition includes the experience of both the finite and infinite aspects of living. They are and will always be present in every living person (living being in my opinion). Neither can be done away with during life although the awareness of each component can certainly vary among individuals.

We have now established that the book club (- patience cat, perhaps we'll start work on a better name next) will read and discuss a new book every other month. The second book selection will be made by mid March and discussion will begin early May. So far, the recommendations include: 1. Dakini's Warm Breath: The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism by Judith Simmer-Brown http://www.amazon.com/Dakinis-Warm-Breath-...e/dp/157062920X 2. To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti http://www.amazon.com/Be-Human-Jiddu-Krish...2602&sr=1-1 3. Clear Light of Bliss: The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism by Kelsang Gyatso http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Light-Bliss-Ma...8638&sr=1-6 4. Taoism: Growth of a Religion by Isabelle Robinet and Phyllis Brooks http://www.amazon.com/Taoism-Growth-Religi...6562&sr=8-1 Feel free to make one recommendation per person and please try and make your recommendation clear so that I don't misinterpret your wishes. Thanks everyone for your patience!

I'm going to cut off the list at this point and create a poll to select our next book from the follow list 1. Dakini's Warm Breath: The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism by Judith Simmer-Brown 2. To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti 3. Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book by Daniel Ingram 4. Taoism: Growth of a Religion by Isabelle Robinet and Phyllis Brooks 5. Daoist Body Cultivation: Traditional Models And Contemporary Practices by Livia Kohn 6. Revealing the Tao Te Ching: In-depth Commentaries on an Ancient Classic by Hu Xuezhi 7. "Daoism and Chinese Culture," by Livia Kohn Let's get our votes in by the end of next week please.

The February 2008 issue of Tai Chi magazine has what I think is a very good article about double weighting. Most explanations take a narrow view of the topic and address only the stance, stepping, and footwork aspects of double weighting. This article discusses the more generalized viewpoint of it as relating to force against force. Recommended reading for anyone interested in the topic.

This bears repeating... nicely said

All so true and well stated - you am me both! Hell no! I'm trying to get you to ask the question!!!

Actually, I think we're saying nearly exactly the same thing. We are literally everything and at the same time we are this little portal, limited to the finite nature of our senses and thought, through which the universe is aware of itself. We can experience to some degree that wholeness of "what is" while at the same time maintaining the more limited perspective that allows us to carry out our day to day functions and participate in life's joys and sorrows. I didn't mean to imply that we are limited, quite to the contrary. I think that the limited perspective is the illusion. What I do mean to say is that "what is" is "what is" and it is a trick of the "me", the conditioned movement of thought centered around the memories stored in our brains, that is designed to try and find a better "what could be" that will always be beyond our grasp and keep us on the spiritual treadmill. I feel that it is precisely that search for "what could be" which prevents enlightenment or self-realization or whatever you want to call it. It is the spiritual quest that prevents enlightenment. THis is why Todd is correct (in another thread - I've forgotten which one) that holding onto the questioning mind, the mind of inquiry, the mind that does not know is just the place that we struggle to reach with other methods, like meditation and so forth. Once "what could be" is dropped and one falls into "what is" in it's miraculous entirety then we can be the whole thing and transcend the limited perspective of one who is searching for something. Being with "what is" very fully is what allows the doer to merge with what is being done. It is not the answer that is of value, it is the question. The question, the lack of knowledge, is pregnant with possibility. The answer is dead because it is finite - there can never be a satisfactory answer. Again, just my limited perspective - words can never do this stuff justice.

Very nice post Lin and good info Buddy. I think you're much more likely to find Daoist resources unscathed by government standardization and sterilization in Taiwan and elsewhere abroad. The cultural revolution left very little intact in China.

I guess you're asking us for our personal definitions of self-realization and enlightenment? My views on this continue to evolve but I'll give it a shot, briefly... Each of us is a body equipped with a sensory appartus and associated with a process of thought. The sensory apparatus is our only method of interacting with the environment and our process of thought is our only way of being aware of and processing that interaction. That means that all we can ever know or be aware of is limited by thought. Anything beyond our capacity for thought and experience is, well, outside our realm of experience for ever, by definition. The movement of thought is such that it is never satisfied with "what is". This seems to be a consequence of the biological drive to survive (find more food, better shelter, copulation partner with better genes...) and the process of conditioning (you need to be smarter, stronger, better smelling... so that you can have more food, better partner and so on...). This disatisfaction with "what is" extends to our understanding of spiritual matters, our sense of self, our understanding of God and the universe and so on... Now, here comes the important question - "who am I?". What is it that is not satisfied with "what is" - show that to me. Localize it. Pin it down. You cannot -ever. That is because there is no me. There is the body and the sensory apparatus, but where is "me"? Me is the movement of thought centered around a collection of thoughts associated with conditioning, experience, memories, and so forth. So this movement of thought surrounding the collection of memories and conditioning (ie "me") decides that there is something better. THis is because "what is", the current state of affairs is always made up of good and bad, pleasure and pain - this is a consequence of yin/yang, mutual arising. The thought arises that there is a state in which all of this conflict is resolved and there is neverending bliss. Where does this come from? Gurus, spiritual salesmen, old books and scripture, aversion to pain and suffering, you name it. But what is it really? It's just another movement of thought. Another concept derived from the known universe. Wanting what is beyond "what is". But the "me" can never go beyond itself because it is simply a construction made of thought. It has no reality beyond concept. So I currently feel that this concept of perpetual enlightenment, or some state of permanent absence of thought or endless bliss is a concept of thought that is perpetually unattainable or in other words, bullshit. I do believe that people have (and I have had) experiences of the interrelatedness of everything. I also think that one can see through the concept of individual self or separateness from other. That is, it is possible, and not too difficult, to realize that there is no "me". There is the movement of thought and this is centered around a perspective born out of memory and experience. THis awareness can be sustained and liberating. It can dramatically reduce suffering. It has for me. Yet I think there is always that biological drive to experience some sense of individual self for purposes of survival and the conditioning part is extremely difficult to let go completely but perhaps some do it eventually (Ramana, Nisargadatta, Gautama, perhaps, perhaps not). I could define "the seeing through the illusion of separation" and "understanding the erroneous concept of self" as self-realization, perhaps. And at advanced levels it may completely shed all vestiges of conditioning. That would be the highest level. I could then define the idea of a permanent, blissful, thoughtless, ecstatic, higher energy state as enlightenment. If that's the case, I will state that self-realization happens to alot of us to various degrees, and enlightenment is bullshit mostly sold by charlatans. I don't really like to use those words, however, because it takes so long to define them and because so many people invest so much in the dream of "what could be". Probably an unpopular view but I'd rather be honest. Just my current view and experience, FWIW...

Now we have: 1. Dakini's Warm Breath: The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism by Judith Simmer-Brown 2. To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti 3. Clear Light of Bliss: The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism by Kelsang Gyatso 4. Taoism: Growth of a Religion by Isabelle Robinet and Phyllis Brooks 5. Daoist Body Cultivation: Traditional Models And Contemporary Practices by Livia Kohn 6. Revealing the Tao Te Ching: In-depth Commentaries on an Ancient Classic by Hu Xuezhi 7. "Daoism and Chinese Culture," by Livia Kohn

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Very cool! I just read this site yesterday. I've been feeling an urge to spend a weekend or a week at a silent retreat to get away from the grind. I was checking out this center. Anyone have any experience with this group?

Welcome Kenny! Nice post. I have also heard this quote and interpret it to mean that not only is it important to practice, but it is important to practice properly. To me that means that one must have a competent teacher and one must make the effort to practice intelligently. For example, let's say you practice taiji and you practice the form every day for an hour for 20 years. If you never paid attention to proper posture, distinguishing full and empty, and so on, that 20 years of practice will have taken you no closer to understanding taiji. So when you do practice, make sure you pay attention to the small details and practice very mindfully. That's how I interpret that saying. Best regards, PS - I really enjoy old sayings like that, keep them coming!

Why questions are tricky. Let's assume that the infinity of existence has a specific reason to this question. Why is it that we would expect, as humans with finite intellectual capacity, to understand such an explanation? I guess what we are looking for is some reassurance that there is an answer, somewhere, whether we can understand it or not, and that the answer would somehow justify what we perceive to be evil. Why should there be? Does a salmon perceive the bear to be evil as it tears it to pieces for it's meal? Clearly there is behavior in the world that causes pain. Resistence to that pain causes suffering. Why should there be a reason? The way I rationalize the existence of evil is by evoking the concepts of taiji and mutual arising. There is no evil without good and no good without evil. They arise together. One is not recognized until defined by the presence of the other. When there is a capacity to experience good then whatever is other than good becomes evil. The more extreme the capacity to appreciate good, the more extreme the evil can be...

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring to emotional pain. The pain of conflict and heartbreak that you were describing, not physical pain...

My shiye always makes a distinction between 炁 - qi4 and 氣 - qi4 when teaching about qi cultivation. He defines 氣 as air and 炁 as internal energy. 氣 (air) contains 炁 (energy) but also contains the impurities and other components in air. He makes the point that 氣 cannot get into the body beyond the lungs without causing harm (ie gas in the bowels and embolism in the blood vessels). When we inhale, we breath in 氣 and when we exhale, we get rid of the impurities and absorb 炁. When we cultivate, we sink 炁 to dan tian, not 氣. He says that in the old days, the Daoists were careful to make this distinctionand used 炁 when discussing energy but for some reason, the distinction was lost at some point, at least as far as books go. Now almost all writings use 氣. Apparently, his teachers maintained the distinction in their teachings. In fact, whenever he teaches cultivation or teaches basics about qi and Chinese medicine, this tends to be the first thing that he talks about. I've done some research and can only find 炁 in one online dictionary, http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?cdqchi=%E7%82%81, and the Chinese wikipedia, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%81. Unfortunately, I don't read hanzi well so I'm very limited in my research. If you google the character, 炁, there are lots of hits on Chinese sites but it's painstaking work for me to translate them and the google translator is quite limited. Does anyone know more about this distinction? I find it interesting that I can find so little about it. It is mentioned in several places as being used in Daoist charms.

I am currently working on remaining present with pain. I too have practiced avoidance, quite expertly I might add, to the point of being dissociated from the emotions I choose to avoid. At first that seems advantageous as I felt 'better' or 'calmer'. But this is only superficial and eventually must be faced. This is where meditation has really helped me - by exposing this tendency to avoid. This has a significant impact on relationships of all kinds. Pain only becomes suffering when one struggles against it. To sit with it, be with it, explore it very deeply, at every level is a valuable exercise, I'm learning. It quite readily tends to become less powerful. Also, it influences behavior less since one can be open to it and then behave mindfully rather than based on conditioning.

That was definitely interesting to me, most things are. 謝謝

Of course not, just making a mediocre joke... more directed at others, truth be told... I'd better get the hell out of here before it wears off!! Thanks for sharing that, Taomeow. I enjoyed your discussion. I've had a similar experience regarding the intensity of the initial change, followed by a lessening of the intensity accompanied by a permanent alteration in one's understanding of things or relationship to things. The intensity can be dialed up and down for me to a degree but you appear to be more sensitive than I (gender perhaps?) I'm interested in the fact that you feel as though you could lead anyone through the same specific steps and expect, predictably, a similar outcome. Have you done this? My experience has been that the outcome is more dependent on where any given individual is than on what specific methods are used. Even my shifu says that he can make no guarantees of success with the Dao meditation - different individuals react differently.

Todd, Are you willing to share what it is that you practice and with whom? I am always impressed with your insights and presentation. AHHH! This is a scam! The one who reaches enlightenment first knows that both will enjoy the Coke equally!

This post started as a very brief response and took on a life of it's own - for some reason I am compelled to mention this as a preface... Hmmm, there are things at odds here. I completely agree with your first statement about non-duality. It is not an intellectual idea or conclusion, it is an absolute certainty for me as well. Perhaps we're both deluded, I'm OK with that. The thing that I'm struggling with is this, I'll try to express it. Unfortunately, words always sound so presumptuous, arrogant, rehearsed, artificial but sometimes you've just got to say, fuck it! There is no duality, there is not two. Notice that the Hindus do not say there is one or we are one. They say that there are not two. THis is significant. That which is, is not born, does not die, but is and is not. It is existence and non-existence. It is not two. We, as organic creatures, are encased in a bag of skin and equipped with sensory organs that constantly reinforce a sense of separation from the environment and each other. That separation is constantly reinforced by each of us and our conditioning and social conventions. It starts with early childhood and is very difficult to see through. We are no more separate from the environment than a whirlpool from the stream or a wave from the ocean. We cannot possibly exist without our environment nor does our environment exist without us. Without our miraculous sensory apparatus, the environment is nothing more than various configurations of electromagnetic waves. Everything is not form and substance, not stuff, but relationship. There are no particles of stuff in the universe, only waves. We only perceive stuff and particles due to the particular nature and tuning of our sensory organs. You recognize this, you know this, so how much more awake can you be? It is not a matter of being awake or enlightened or not either. THere is the thought that what is (and is not), is not enough. There is desire that demands more. To transcend the endless cycle of life and death and the joy and suffering. That is human nature combined with conditioning, that is the drive which feeds and clothes us but also makes us suffer. The need to become that which we are not. When there is no longer attachment to the desire to transcend, then there is freedom to simply be. And what a marvelous, miraculous existence it can be, and what a horrible painful existence it can be. One cannot exist without the other. They arise mutually, give meaning and substance to each other. Just as life and death, existence and non-existence arise mutually, they are not two, they are non-dual. When this organism encased in a bag of skin and it's associated knowledge, memories, thoughts, desires, conditioning, etc... dies, then this particular collection of knowledge, memories, etc... is no longer in existence but 'that which is', remains. Another body is born and again is blessed with the spark of consciousness if you will, or awareness, and it then goes on to become conditioned and fills with all the thoughts, memories, and so on, over time because time is thought. And it is conditioned to want and need and try to become that which it is not. And eventually, in some, a spark ignites that wants to transcend everything but it is just a thought, like the one that wants anything else, only it's paticularly persistent because what it wants can never be satisfied until death. It wants to know what lies beyond death, the great mystery, the meaning of life. But nothing lies beyond death. Death is just what is not life. The great mystery is the unanswere question. When answered, it is no longer mystery. But there can never be a state where the human brain and the limited nature of thought (which is simply the action of knowlege and memory, fear and desire) can answer all questions, so there will always be the great mystery. So the desire is there to transcend, so be it. Sit with it and go into it very deeply. Why is it there? What can you learn from it? What is it telling you about you? about everything around? This is why the question unanswered is more important than meditation, I think. Meditation presupposes the answer, the answer is to be found through meditation, why else do it? But the question alone makes no suppositions. It is alive! Answers are dead! Being with the question is very valuable. If you go into that particular desire, to transcend, very deeply, what happens to it? I don't know the answer and I'm not looking for an answer from anyone. It is for each of us to find out for ourselves. If that is what is (and perhaps it's not and I'm totally full of shit - that's OK too), what is it to awaken? What is liberation? Is there a state other than existence and non-existence? Other than that which is? If so, is that not a duality? I say you ARE awake, you ARE enlightened, you just don't recognize it because of conditioning and habit. I'll take a stab at the original question: What is a person? A person is an organic creature that is blessed with self awareness. That self awareness is a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because it is simply a way in which the universe becomes aware of itself and has an opportunity to revel in it's own mystery and beauty. It is a curse insofar as it is subject to the conditioning of millenia of social convention which causes it to forget it's true nature and leads to profound fear, desire, and suffering.

Brilliant experiment but with a fatal flaw - they should have prepared some sort of safety net to prevent the prolonged hospitalization! Thanks for posting that.

Hmm, don't be so sure... What did the sage say to the idiot? ........ ........ ........ I love you!

Hi Jai! Welcome

Welcome to Tao Bums, Desire. You will find and interesting and ecclectic mix here. Namaste