doc benway

Very cool to see the pics and I'm glad everyone had such a good time. I'm sorry I couldn't join you all but I did have the good fortune to celebrate my son's 21st birthday instead! I look forward to a future gathering.

RAOTFLMFAO Oolong Warm welcome to Lotus Flower - I already feel lucky to know you!

Excellent post. I heard the same information in a lecture by Alan Watts. Perhaps there is, hidden somewhere in Greek or subsequent Western history, the knowlege that all is illusion and that our "personality" is just a mask, hiding our true nature. Interesting how appropriate the word is. Stig, you've definitely got something going here! I don't consider myself to be enough of a scholar of Daoist philosophy to answer that definitively but I'll think out loud here. Certainly formlessness and form arise mutually and are mutually dependent as are front/back, black/white, being/non-being, and so on... In that sense Taiji would include both form and formlessness as one is the yin to the other's yang. So I think your initial representation makes sense.

Thanks for your input and participation. However brief, it was equally worthwhile. A bolt of lightening is every bit as beautiful as a glacier. Best wishes to you on your journey.

How do you go to somewhere when you are already there? That makes so much sense -re babies and young children. I feel what you're saying about the community, Mat. Thanks for expressing that. Oh, and I love the Namaste _/\_ I hope you don't mind if I share that with you! He also uses the term heart similarly - perhaps referring to the center of being the Heart of all, rather than the organ in our chest that pumps blood.

Hi Sean, Any possibility of expanding our smilie options? I've seen some forums with some really entertaining animated ones for example. They can be a lot of fun. I don't know what it involves but thought I'd put the question out there. Best regards, Steve

You've never offended me, Buddy. Look what became of this Frankenstein thread you started! It's actually taken some cool turns and I've enjoyed it. Nice to see you back checking it out. It's also nice to see a new and gentler you!

It seems that insight can happen when the thought train, the discriminating and comparing mind, rests. Insight seems to come from beyond the every day mind - it's precious, sacred perhaps. I recently read something by a Sioux author from the turn of the 20th century named Ohiyesa (Charles Eastman was his 'white' name). He eloquently describes the sacred nature of silence to the Sioux. I imagine Ramana was referring more to inner silence. Ohiyesa refers more to outer silence but I think they arise mutually. Ohiyesa refers to religion as being the everyday state of reverence for that which is and it appears that there is no greater way to honor it than with silence.... so why can't I shut up!? Very nice topic for inquiry Mat.

Best wishes to you WT. I'll miss your company here. Good luck with your journey, brother.

Excellent selection Matt! Wow, this topic has grown in the past few days. It'll take some time to read through but here are a few things I'd like to add: Nope - emotional bliss (or any other for that matter) is limited and this implies that enlightenment excludes other things. Enlightenment is easier to speak about in terms of what it is not - it is not bliss though it must include bliss. Nope - who is present to experience enlightenment? It is not an experience as there is no one there to experience anything. It is not a state as that would imply that it exludes some other state. WT - All of our experience, every object, action, feeling, emotion, and so on, are interactions of our environment with our nervous system. Imagine everything that you can possibly imagine or think of -absolutely everything. Then imagine everything that you can never possibly think of, every outlandish possibility. Then imagine, if you can, everything that you can neither think of nor NOT think of... Now describe that to me! With all due respect, SJ sounds as if he is reading answers from a book or reciting answers provided by a teacher. I don't mean to be offensive but I wonder how deeply SJ has inquired into these questions for himself? It wasn't long ago that he accused me of mentally jerking off and wasting time on such stupid questions as Who Am I? Lin sounds as if he is actively working toward answering these questions for himself and has real substance (or void... ). WT - No one can ever show you or teach you what enlightenment is in a meaningful way. No one can help you achieve it beyond encouragement. I believe it is a spark which occurs and grows, irrespective of the method or the guru. It is purely a personal matter. What if I told you it was suddenly looking around and knowing that there is no separation between the organsim that is looking and the environment that is being looked at. The feeling that the organsim is simply a vessel with which creation experiences itself. The feeling that the present moment is all there ever is, was, and will be yet the present moment is absent. None of these words means anything. It is not the result of a method or an effort (although using a method and making effort is an indication that awareness or awakening has chosen to manifest and may ultimately occur). This is why I only asked questions in this thread. I wasn't looking for or expecting answers. I was hoping that people would really look into these questions for themselves. That is the begining of the journey. It is the question that is valuable. Questions are alive, answers are dead. What good are the answers of dead masters? Questions imply possibility and are inclusive, answers exclude. If someone gives you an answer - it is of no value. You must sit with the questions, for a long time, if necessary - or maybe only for an instant but it cannot come from outside. If you see the Buddha in the road, KILL HIM!!! To me, that's what is meant by this saying.

I'm reading a book about non-duality that I'd like to mention in light of the direction this thread has gone. It's got it's high and low points ( ). Part of it investigates non-duality in the traditions of several of the major religions which was a bit inconsistent. Part of it explores Sri Ramana Maharshi's method. The best part of the book for me is the section dealing with how awakening affects the individual in terms of their profession and includes chapters on psychotherapy, education, art, and cinema. It's called One and is edited by Jerry Katz. The sections on psychotherapy and education were particularly valuable.

A friend recently loaned me some books by Don Miguel Ruiz. He spoke highly of them. Anyone read his work? Comments?

I mean anything that arises in the mind. I'm not looking to define what is normal or distinguish healthy vs unhealthy. Just making the point that thoughts, emotions, feelings arise and are all related to the organic (I'm using this in place of natural or normal) funtion of the brain. Struggling against them causes internal conflict. You're missing my intent due to my poor choice of (limitation of) words. By desire here I was simply refering to choosing one action over another, based on one's values rather than conditioning, in order to attain a more fruitful outcome.

Janis said take it Sadly, she took it herself So young to return...

I finally got around to reading this and I like it! The thing that sort of freaks me out is that Karl is becoming so much more infulential in American life and politics. It's ironic that America's response to the perceived threat of Muslim fundamentalism is a rise in Christian fundamentalism. Where's Hank when you really need him?

So true! It can be done however - see Lin's post! It is so important to define our terms when discussing such matters for there to be productive exchange. Beautifully put, Lin. Mindfullness, followed by action based on values rather than conditioned or habituated response. I'll add one other thing, if I may. We tend to be conditioned to avoid negative emotions and feelings. We are discouraged from expressing them and they are painful to experience. These are usually the triggers you refer to. First, it is helpful to learn how to accept the negative emotions and feelings rather than fight, analyze, deny, or try to change them. Feelings and emotions cannot be changed and are natural and normal. Accept them, then the process of choosing desired action rather than acting based on conditioning can be instituted.

Magnificent!!! Thank you so much for posting that.

The practice has really been an important part of my spiritual and psychological development in terms of enhancing and putting into perspective my Daoist practices, my work, my family responsibilities and so on.

Check out the book "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" by Stephen Hayes. http://www.amazon.com/Get-Your-Mind-Into-L...2094&sr=8-1 Sorry for the long winded post above (in fact, I just added to it! ) but this is an area that I think is critical, at least to me, for where I'm at right now.

What mindfullness means to me is to pay attention to what is going on. By attention, I mean to really attend deeply in the moment. This is an active thing but very receptive - sort of an active receptivity if you will. It is not easy but can be cultivated over time with practice. It takes enormous energy in the beginning to sustain but gets easier. Think about your normal behavior when someone is talking to you. Don't you start thinking about what you want to reply rather than paying attention to them? Or get distracted by something else? Don't you jockey around for the right opportunity to interject your thoughts and ideas? What if you really paid attention? Looked at them as if you've never seen them before - their eyes, hair, skin, and so forth. Really listen to their words and beyond their words to their meaning. Paid attention to their clothing, their body language, the environment, the feel in your own body, how you are reacting to them. I don't mean to think about these things - open up to experiencing these things, it's very different. What seems to work for me is to completely immerse myself in the senses - pay attention to the sights, sounds, touch, smells, and so on, in whatever situation is present. The more I am paying attention, which is receptivity (yin), the less there is thought distracting me from being present. As soon as I get lazy and ease up on the 'active receptivity' practice, the thoughts flood back in and the moment is a memory. It seems to me that when you are able to completely immerse yourself in the moment, you can approach the point of merging the observer with the observed. As this occurs it is only the process, the observation, the relationship that is present, the person and thing are gone. Well, not really gone but no longer important. The distinction is no longer real. The illusion of separation fades. This is difficult to maintain. It is ellusive and fleeting but it is very real, more real than anything, and it has a quality that is very.... I don't know what to call it. I don't like the normal words - blissful, joyous, transcendant, and so on, it all sounds too analytical, arrogant, self-indulgent. Words don't really work because it's not having to do with thought. Mindfullness is an interesting word - it really should be mind-emptiness. The mind must be empty to receive. On the other hand, it is filled with the moment, the experience, not the thoughts or the analysis. So it starts empty but fills with experience, with reality. Once the moment passes, it fills again with thought. Are you familiar with the ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy) method? Mindfullness has a very important role in ACT. I think that many of the Eastern concepts like mindfullness can have a profound effect on mental health although they are not easy practices, particularly for people raised with Western conditioning.

Very interesting and well said... thanks Smile

Emptying your mind is difficult and can lead to frustration when done directly. Trying to empty the mind is fighting an uphill battle. The thoughts will continue to arise. You can't stop it. The more you try, the more you reinforce the presence of someone trying to do something and that is the antithesis of meditation. I agree with the advice of simply watching the thoughts rather than trying to stop or let go or quiet them. Imagine your thoughts as cars in a long train. Most of the time we are one the train. See if you can step back and watch the train as if you were on a bridge and it was going under you. Or watch the thought float along like a leaf on a stream and off into the distance as if you are just standing on the bank or a pebble in the stream. Another method I like is to open yourself to simply being aware of the sensations around you and in you. If you are immersed in sensory perception, there's generally not much room for thoughts to interfere.

I'm not sure I get your meaning relative to quan. It sounds nice - forming the fist out of the unformed hand but I'm not sure how that relates to Taiji. That sounds more like Wuji perhaps. Please clarify if I'm misinterpreting you. I simply look at the quan as referring to a method of boxing, as in Xingyiquan and others. I definitely agree that The Taiji form is a form or structure that encapsulates Taiji principles...

My first shot at some Hanzi etymology: Tai Ji - Tai - 太 - Means greatest, highest, extreme, supreme, most remote. It derives from a stick figure of a person with outstretched arms implying opening or expanding or aging. The stem on the leg implies the divine spark or some distinguishing characteristic. Ji - 極 - Means utmost point, extreme, or pole. The left radical is a tree. The right radical is heaven above earth connected by man using hand (left) and mouth (right). Putting these together connotates extreme poles or opposites. It seems to imply that two opposites come together to form something greater or something whole and complete. It implies a union of extreme opposites. Add Quan - 拳, which means fist or boxing and you have Taijiquan. Most people translate Taijiquan as Supreme Ultimate Boxing. This is literally correct and it's certainly possible that the advocates of this style chose the name to imply the extreme effectiveness and perhaps, a supernatural quality to the art. I believe, however, that it's more accurate to simply look at it as Tai Ji Boxing and interpret it as a style of boxing that is based on principles of Daoist philosophy embodied in the concept of Taiji. That is - soft is meaningless without hard, high without low and so on. Therefore, taiji applies these complimentary principles and uses soft against hard, high against low and so on. Furthermore, training in taiji allows one to develop extreme strength from extreme weakness and to contain extreme hardness within extreme softness and so forth... Whether it is the Supreme Ultimate martial art is certainly arguable but there's no question that the principles are deeply rooted in taiji philosophy.

I'm no expert. I believe that there is no specific law regarding paying income tax yet there is a method to enforce tax payment and punishment if you don't pay. I don't know the specifics and I do pay taxes...