doc benway

It seems to me that it's not unusual for people to look for the origins of things in antiquity. This tendency leads us to look as far back as we can to see the roots of development of a tradition or system. The earliest roots may be barely recognizable but can give us some insight into what gave birth to our traditions. In fact, if you trace things back far enough or deep enough - they're all the same...

You are perceptive - there is a revolution going on inside. I will sit with your questions for a while - they are good ones! Thank you, Todd ........... ........... ............. Thank you for the lesson, Todd! _/\_

Thanks Lin - That would be very nice!

A fellow guitarist?! Cool..

Very interesting discussion Drew. I'm a bit ignorant of some of the concepts and plan to spend some time looking at your work. I would suggest some caution about interpreting Ramana's comments regarding head, heart, and mind. I may be misreading you but I feel that you are referring to the individual head, heart, and mind above. More often than not, his references to heart refers to the universal heart which he frequently uses interchangeably with Self (universal self) and, I think, mind. There is a nice discussion of his use of terms in David Godman's book. If I'm mistaken about your intention, please ignore my post!

Very cool to see the pics and I'm glad everyone had such a good time. I'm sorry I couldn't join you all but I did have the good fortune to celebrate my son's 21st birthday instead! I look forward to a future gathering.

RAOTFLMFAO Oolong Warm welcome to Lotus Flower - I already feel lucky to know you!

Excellent post. I heard the same information in a lecture by Alan Watts. Perhaps there is, hidden somewhere in Greek or subsequent Western history, the knowlege that all is illusion and that our "personality" is just a mask, hiding our true nature. Interesting how appropriate the word is. Stig, you've definitely got something going here! I don't consider myself to be enough of a scholar of Daoist philosophy to answer that definitively but I'll think out loud here. Certainly formlessness and form arise mutually and are mutually dependent as are front/back, black/white, being/non-being, and so on... In that sense Taiji would include both form and formlessness as one is the yin to the other's yang. So I think your initial representation makes sense.

Thanks for your input and participation. However brief, it was equally worthwhile. A bolt of lightening is every bit as beautiful as a glacier. Best wishes to you on your journey.

How do you go to somewhere when you are already there? That makes so much sense -re babies and young children. I feel what you're saying about the community, Mat. Thanks for expressing that. Oh, and I love the Namaste _/\_ I hope you don't mind if I share that with you! He also uses the term heart similarly - perhaps referring to the center of being the Heart of all, rather than the organ in our chest that pumps blood.

Hi Sean, Any possibility of expanding our smilie options? I've seen some forums with some really entertaining animated ones for example. They can be a lot of fun. I don't know what it involves but thought I'd put the question out there. Best regards, Steve

You've never offended me, Buddy. Look what became of this Frankenstein thread you started! It's actually taken some cool turns and I've enjoyed it. Nice to see you back checking it out. It's also nice to see a new and gentler you!

It seems that insight can happen when the thought train, the discriminating and comparing mind, rests. Insight seems to come from beyond the every day mind - it's precious, sacred perhaps. I recently read something by a Sioux author from the turn of the 20th century named Ohiyesa (Charles Eastman was his 'white' name). He eloquently describes the sacred nature of silence to the Sioux. I imagine Ramana was referring more to inner silence. Ohiyesa refers more to outer silence but I think they arise mutually. Ohiyesa refers to religion as being the everyday state of reverence for that which is and it appears that there is no greater way to honor it than with silence.... so why can't I shut up!? Very nice topic for inquiry Mat.

Best wishes to you WT. I'll miss your company here. Good luck with your journey, brother.

Excellent selection Matt! Wow, this topic has grown in the past few days. It'll take some time to read through but here are a few things I'd like to add: Nope - emotional bliss (or any other for that matter) is limited and this implies that enlightenment excludes other things. Enlightenment is easier to speak about in terms of what it is not - it is not bliss though it must include bliss. Nope - who is present to experience enlightenment? It is not an experience as there is no one there to experience anything. It is not a state as that would imply that it exludes some other state. WT - All of our experience, every object, action, feeling, emotion, and so on, are interactions of our environment with our nervous system. Imagine everything that you can possibly imagine or think of -absolutely everything. Then imagine everything that you can never possibly think of, every outlandish possibility. Then imagine, if you can, everything that you can neither think of nor NOT think of... Now describe that to me! With all due respect, SJ sounds as if he is reading answers from a book or reciting answers provided by a teacher. I don't mean to be offensive but I wonder how deeply SJ has inquired into these questions for himself? It wasn't long ago that he accused me of mentally jerking off and wasting time on such stupid questions as Who Am I? Lin sounds as if he is actively working toward answering these questions for himself and has real substance (or void... ). WT - No one can ever show you or teach you what enlightenment is in a meaningful way. No one can help you achieve it beyond encouragement. I believe it is a spark which occurs and grows, irrespective of the method or the guru. It is purely a personal matter. What if I told you it was suddenly looking around and knowing that there is no separation between the organsim that is looking and the environment that is being looked at. The feeling that the organsim is simply a vessel with which creation experiences itself. The feeling that the present moment is all there ever is, was, and will be yet the present moment is absent. None of these words means anything. It is not the result of a method or an effort (although using a method and making effort is an indication that awareness or awakening has chosen to manifest and may ultimately occur). This is why I only asked questions in this thread. I wasn't looking for or expecting answers. I was hoping that people would really look into these questions for themselves. That is the begining of the journey. It is the question that is valuable. Questions are alive, answers are dead. What good are the answers of dead masters? Questions imply possibility and are inclusive, answers exclude. If someone gives you an answer - it is of no value. You must sit with the questions, for a long time, if necessary - or maybe only for an instant but it cannot come from outside. If you see the Buddha in the road, KILL HIM!!! To me, that's what is meant by this saying.

I'm reading a book about non-duality that I'd like to mention in light of the direction this thread has gone. It's got it's high and low points ( ). Part of it investigates non-duality in the traditions of several of the major religions which was a bit inconsistent. Part of it explores Sri Ramana Maharshi's method. The best part of the book for me is the section dealing with how awakening affects the individual in terms of their profession and includes chapters on psychotherapy, education, art, and cinema. It's called One and is edited by Jerry Katz. The sections on psychotherapy and education were particularly valuable.

A friend recently loaned me some books by Don Miguel Ruiz. He spoke highly of them. Anyone read his work? Comments?

I mean anything that arises in the mind. I'm not looking to define what is normal or distinguish healthy vs unhealthy. Just making the point that thoughts, emotions, feelings arise and are all related to the organic (I'm using this in place of natural or normal) funtion of the brain. Struggling against them causes internal conflict. You're missing my intent due to my poor choice of (limitation of) words. By desire here I was simply refering to choosing one action over another, based on one's values rather than conditioning, in order to attain a more fruitful outcome.

Janis said take it Sadly, she took it herself So young to return...

I finally got around to reading this and I like it! The thing that sort of freaks me out is that Karl is becoming so much more infulential in American life and politics. It's ironic that America's response to the perceived threat of Muslim fundamentalism is a rise in Christian fundamentalism. Where's Hank when you really need him?

So true! It can be done however - see Lin's post! It is so important to define our terms when discussing such matters for there to be productive exchange. Beautifully put, Lin. Mindfullness, followed by action based on values rather than conditioned or habituated response. I'll add one other thing, if I may. We tend to be conditioned to avoid negative emotions and feelings. We are discouraged from expressing them and they are painful to experience. These are usually the triggers you refer to. First, it is helpful to learn how to accept the negative emotions and feelings rather than fight, analyze, deny, or try to change them. Feelings and emotions cannot be changed and are natural and normal. Accept them, then the process of choosing desired action rather than acting based on conditioning can be instituted.

Magnificent!!! Thank you so much for posting that.

The practice has really been an important part of my spiritual and psychological development in terms of enhancing and putting into perspective my Daoist practices, my work, my family responsibilities and so on.

Check out the book "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life" by Stephen Hayes. http://www.amazon.com/Get-Your-Mind-Into-L...2094&sr=8-1 Sorry for the long winded post above (in fact, I just added to it! ) but this is an area that I think is critical, at least to me, for where I'm at right now.