doc benway

You are correct. In terms of the cultivation practices I would guess that only a small percentage of the members of this forum train in traditional systems with supervision by experienced teachers.

Funny, all this time I thought it was the hat...

Mantis, What are your goals? There are many, many systems. Followers of each will speak of their strengths, others may speak of their weaknesses. They all have something to offer to your thoughts, your ego. The part of you that has you convinced that you are lacking something. Can you find out what it is that you are lacking? Where it is that you want to go? What you will do when you get it or get there? Who is it, really, who needs something or needs to go somewhere? Meditation of any variety is useful if it allows the thoughts to quiet and allows you to investigate how the mind works. I think that the first question is, what is it that you want? The question will generally give you the answer if you study it deeply. Good luck, Steve

Right now I'm running a poll in this sub-forum on how frequently people would like to read new books. I plan to close the poll on Sunday and that will determine how frequently we'll read new books. My thought would be to select a new book ~ 6 weeks before it is to be discussed. That gives everyone 2 weeks to obtain the book and another 4 weeks to read the book before we begin discussion. You don't have to complete the book before discussion begins but, depending on the book, that could be advantageous... I do plan on trying to divide up each book into chapters or sections and discuss it in parts (as I've already done for the first book). In most book clubs, the participants read the entire book before discussing it. Please check back on Sunday or Monday for the final word. Obviously, the fewer books we read per year, the more time we can take with each. Also, we can always modify the logistics as we go along... PS - My feet can be quite numb when necessary...

I like the freedom of posting on and off topic. I'd be bored with strictly Daoism discussion - even if we could agree on what that means. Sometimes, a particular topic gets discussed to death and I just tune out if it doesn't interest me. I think that keeping the discussion unpredictable, lively, and organic through more freedom is much more in keeping with my interpretation of the Daoist spirit than it would be to restrict or try and direct the discussion. The forum isn't so much about the subject of Daoism as it is a group of people leaning in a Daoist direction hanging out together. At least that's how it appears. Furthermore, I've learned nearly as much about what Daoism means from Indian, Japanese, English, and American sources (most not writing or speaking on the subject of Daoism at all) as from Chinese (Daoist) sources and practices. That sounds ridiculous (and I may be) but it's the truth. Daoism is not contained within the word, concept, culture, or belief system. The word is NOT the thing. This is why the inner cultivation aspect is so critical. Daoism goes way beyond the concepts and ideas (which are thoughts) and can be found in absolutely everything.

To all members who may be interested in participating in the Tao Bums online Book Club: We are currently running a poll to determine how frequently to review new books. Please take a moment to vote for your preference in the Book Club sub-forum. The poll will continue until Sunday 2/17. Thanks for your interest.

Thanks Sean! I should've thought of that...

So far it looks like one book every other month will be the decision. It's been 5 days now since the poll started and I'll arbitrarily select Sunday as the closing date so that we can move forward. thanks to those who took the time to vote.

From the poll so far it looks like we will end up reading one book every two to three months. I'll give the poll at least a full week but it looks like our second book won't be discussed until May, at the earliest. Please keep that in mind as you think about selections for the next book. I will start a new thread once we determine the final results of the poll and will outline some new dates for making the selection and so on... Most likely, we will pick the next book in mid March so the 2-3 weeks it takes to get it, for some of us, will still leave us 3-4 weeks to read and prepare.

It sounds like an intense experience. Every time I have a sensory hallucination of some sort during or after meditation, my teacher tells me to ignore it and return to the first point. All of these images are created by the thoughts and are distractions. They are the product of our conditioning, desires, expectations, fears, and so on. As the thoughts quiet, the deeper ones come forth and can be pretty intense and unexpected. It's certainly possible that your experience was other than that but that has been my training so far....

Hi Jesse, Here are a few questions regarding inner cultivation for the Dragon Gate Sect Master: 1. Who is it that is practicing cultivation? If I recognize that "I" am just the thought that has chosen to act as overseer to the other thoughts, what is the benefit of cultivation and who benefits? 2. What are the names (preferrably Hanzi, pinyin, and English translation) of the points of the microcosmic orbit that the Dragon Gate students develop in their practice? Is it possible to give a summary of the points and in what order they are introduced? What are the siginificance of each of these points? Is he able to give us an overview or summary of the process of cultivation from the beginning to the higher levels? 3. What role, if any, does martial training in taijiquan, taijijian, or other martial arts play in his tradition? 4. What role does standing or walking meditation play in his tradition, if any? 5. Is there a specific diet that he recommends for those of us living in the real world and trying to maintain our cultivation regimen? 6. Does his tradition teach any physical exercises (qigong, martial,...) for physical fitness, internal health, and so on? Questions for the White Cloud Master: 1. What is it that defines a Daoist historically? What I mean is, what is most important and what is shared by Daoists in the historical context? Is it a belief in certain gods? Is it political beliefs? Economic beliefs? Philosophical beliefs? Culture? Language? Or is it the practice of internal cultivation? 2. How confident can we be that the current Daoist traditions truly reflect the traditions that existed prior to the beginning of the 20th century? So much was destroyed or forced undergroud by the wars and cultural revolution of the 20th century that many believe the old traditions were lost and the new versions are reconstructions. 3. Is music used in the traditions on a regular basis? If so, is there any way that we can find samples? 4. What is the current relationship between the Daoist temples and the general population? Is Daoism currently playing an active role in the lives of younger Chinese? Thanks very much for this opportunity Jesse! Can ask you a question, Jesse? What are you currently doing and how is it that you have come to have this opportunity? Best regards, Steve

My first clue was through reading Waysun Liao's book about the Taiji Classics. In the beginning he advises using the imagination. It gradually becomes more and more accessible with practice. Chanwu's advice is very good.

Which style do you sing? The high stuff or the low stuff? How in the world did you figure it out?!

Great link, I always wondered what the hell a rabbit with a pancake on his head meant. I guess I just felt foolish asking the question! I love the new avatar!

Excellent question - I think that the question itself is what is most important and is where you will likely find the answer for you as you ponder it ... I can only speak to my experience: I've been derailed from my Dao meditation practice a few times. Sometimes very painful, frightening, or unpleasant feelings, memories, images arise. On occasion they have been disturbing enough to cause me to stop for a while. It has really shaken up my life at times. I talk to my shifu and eventually get back on track. More recently, I've been exploring the "I am" question for about a year and reached the point where it seemed foolish to continue to practice the Dao meditation because, after all, who is it that is practicing? for what purpose? That sort of thing got me off course for months. Again, I've come back. Can't really say why - it seems that it feels right. Good luck with your search - that's really all that counts in the long run.

The other funny thing is the number of "Daoists" from Wudang now settling around the world to carry on their Daoist traditions. I think you need to take many of them with a grain of salt. Some may be legitimate, others are probably less so...

You must be looking at the same lake I can see outside my office window... Jane - pretty slick... assuming the extra syllable was intentional...

Consumer consumed Observer one with observed Green lake cold and deep

Has a book club ever been tried on the forum? I think it could be fun and valuable.

Life and Death are inseparable - two sides of a coin. When death is done, life is there... when life is done, death is there... there is always life and death. I don't know if that's Daoist, I'm a not-really-anything'ist. One of my favorite metaphors...

Interesting question - I think that our beliefs, practices, rituals, methods, labels, and all the rest of it are all thoughts that we use to define an image we call "me." "I" get attached to that and fear of loss/ desire of more sort of take over.

Very nice post Chanwu! Your interpretation and experience resonate deeply with me. This point quoted above is so important... it is what rings so false with so many of the magical practices that are currently popular. I think it's a good translation. To me it is one of those books that will validate your experience but not really help you experience. I think it would be great for a Book Club! My experience with what Chanwu refers to is similar. Perhaps he could have said "will" rather than "should" feel bliss and joy. Once the thoughts (which are time) settle; timeless awareness is what is left. This experience is usually referred to as bliss, joy, love, one with God, true nature, whatever... it is a very peaceful, beautiful state yet as Chanwu so eloquently points out, the mind sets a trap. You need to know very well how the mind works to avoid the trap because it will become attached to that state and that's an impediment to progress. The mind compares. It remembers the bliss and compares that to now and wants more bliss. This reinforces duality and blocks progress. Excellent summary Chanwu!