doc benway

I agree with cat. The way Kunlun has been marketed raised some hackles and set off some warnings sirens among some of us on this forum. Others have jumped in and loved the practice. I made some pretty strong comments about it as it first gained momentum. Those involved in it were quite sensitive to any and all criticism and, overall, remain a bit sensitive to criticism even now. I understand that feeling as I get defensive about my practices as well. We all want to feel that what we are committing our time and resources to is worthwhile and legitimate. As a result, after I said my piece, I let it go. Eventually other legitmate contributors will probably do the same...

Why Has Bodhidharma Left for the East? is a good movie

So true! Why is it that humans have become so distant from their nature, from their awareness of qi (feel free to substitute any other terminology - god, brahma, the self, that which is... that expresses a similar isolation, if you prefer)? an aside - In my experience of cultivation I feel less like I am "increasing" or "storing" qi and more like I am becoming more sensitive to it like I am developing the organ responsible for perceiving it and working with it. My terminology would be more "qi-insensitive" than "qi-depleted" but I agree with the consequence entirely. Just semantics, for the purposes of this discussion at least. So is it somehow that our thought process and language skills interfere with or block the qi awareness (I use qi awareness in a very general sense, if you want to substitue another expression for communing with our true nature, that's fine)? What else is there about humans that would have this effect? Our tendency to create images through thought? This is also primarily a consequence of language. It seems to me that our ability to problem solve, survive, thrive has been so dramatically developed through our capacity for thought and language (again using thought a bit carelessly perhaps, I don't mean to imply that other creatures do not think, but our method seems unique probably due to language) that we were able to discard the organ responsible for connecting us to 'what is' at a deeper level. It seems that the fragmentation of thought, which leads to a thought that considers itself "me" and watches over the other thoughts could be responsible along with our technological advancements which allow us to have no interaction with nature in our daily lives. It seems that the thought process has so monopolized our consciousness (and that's reasonable given it's effectiveness as a survival tool), that we have become dull to everything else. This is why meditation is important - to allow us to become aware of the world beyond thought. That's where the beginning of salvation is, I think, but how does an entire culture awaken to this?

My sifu is a tea connosieur. He is very picky about what he'll drink. He gets the best Taiwanese oolong each Spring and doesn't drink too much else (I try to get a little from him - it's really special and costs ~ $250/pound!). He taught me the gung fu tea brewing method (I posted about it on this forum a few months ago). I bought a really inexpensive set up to keep at our school and we really enjoy it - we'll drink tea sometimes after meetings or when a few of the instructors get together to train at off times. I really enjoy the art of the tea pot as well - I like to check them out on the web. The basic gung fu brewing method is as follows: 1. Bring water to near boil (water temp will vary with the particular type of tea, cooler for green, hotter for black). 2. Put tea in small yixing pot (clay) and put tea pot on something to catch overflow (saucer, special tea tray). Generally speaking you put in enough tea to cover the bottom of the pot but this can vary depending on the size and shape of the pot. 3. Pour hot water in pot. 4. Immediately pour water out into serving pitcher (this step is optional and rinses the tea of crud, warms the pot, and helps the tea to begin to open up before brewing). 5. Fill pot again with hot water and then pour the first rinse water over pot for further warming. 6. Steep for desired time. 7. Pour into serving pitcher - this is important so the tea doesn't continue to steep as each guest is served in turn. 8. Serve from pitcher. Repeat as often as desired. Some people use a special cup for sniffing and second for tasting. The first is tall and narrow, the second short and wide. The tea is poured into the aroma cup then poured from there into the tasting cup. The aroma cup is then sniffed while empty to appreciate the fragrance of the tea. For high grade oolong tea, this process can be repeated multiple times. My sifu usually does about 4 or 5 rounds. First round ~30 seconds steeping time, second ~45, third ~60, fourth ~120 and so on... That varies considerably with the tea, size of pot, temperature of water, personal taste... Generally the second or third rounds are the most fragrant and flavorful. The first can be a bit bitter. Gradually the tea loses it's potency and is discarded. Generally speaking, this is not as ceremonial and ritualized as the Japanese cha no yu. As I find to be a Chinese cultural characteristic, gung fu brewing is more practical than the Japanese equivalent and simply designed to extract the most out of the tea. Nevertheless, going through the process does create a very nice atmosphere among friends or colleagues, and the art of brewing the perfect cup of tea can be challenging and rewarding. THere are some tea shops around that will teach you the technique if you're interested. I found a really good one when visiting Seattle this year at the market on the waterfront.

Here is an informative link... http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm

Very nice post - thanks for sharing this and thanks for your candor. When you say the tools to authenticate Chinese training manuals are not available do you mean anywhere? in Taiwan? or within your budget? My assumption was that there are quite accurate methods for dating such documents, for a price, at least in the US. Is there something unique about Chinese manuals (paper, ink, ...) that makes them an exception? Steve

Here are a few - more spur of the moment than thoughtfully considered... 1. Does style matter in the martial arts from a combat perspective? Elaboration - do all styles lead to the same ultimate point as is claimed, is it more a matter of the quality of the student? quality of the teacher? quality of training regimen? all of the above? We all have opinions but if the answer were knowable, I'd be interested... 2. What is the true origin of taijiquan? 3. Did xingyiquan really come from spear fighting techniques? 4. What would it be like to have studied taiji since early childhood? 5. What is the nature of the transformation that occurs during iron palm/shirt training from an anatomic/physiologic perspective? Extra credit question for xingyi practitioners - Why does it hurt when I pi? Sorry, I love that line, couldn't help myself...

Your eyes open mine Your thoughts fill my consciousness White clouds brush blue sky...

You're absolutely right about that. I sort of took it in a different direction based on my own bias and ideas. Nevertheless it is a fascinating study in it's own right so hopefully we'll get some more specific responses to the original question. Now back to our regularly scheduled program... Thanks for your indulgence...

No problem - there's no need for us to agree. However, I think you're missing my point. I'll try to clarify - not so much to convince anyone that I'm right but just to try and be clear. Our language and ability to explain things are limited. Our ability to understand is limited. Our descriptions of universal energy/being/God/Dao whatever you want to call it, is necessarily incomplete and approximate. I don't care whether that description is the product of thousands of years of Daoist thought or Hindu thought or something my neighbor dreamed up yesterday. The school may have developed a "definite and precise" explanation and paradigm but that is still not the thing, it is just words and ideas. It's still limited. The method/system/description is not the thing no matter how credible the source. The thing transcends our ability to describe it (think of the first chapter of Laozi). Therefore, each system is making their best effort to describe more or less the same basic thing only the descriptions are different. Hopefully that's more clear - again, language is inadequate... Just my view at this moment in time...

Thanks cat It's my favorite new word to use in discussions of spiritual stuff - I "borrowed" it from Alan Watts!

Well spoken Ian!

You're trying to get me to describe an indescribable experience in words again. I can't. Most people would disagree but I believe that the experience of qi, prana, meridians, nadis, whatever, is what you believe it to be. We create the feeling or at least interpret it in a way determined by our conditioning. In my view, the differences are irrelevant. Again - there is the thing which is reality and unchanging and is completely independent of our labels. Then there are our feeble attempts to describe it with language. Each attempt at catching it with language is like catching water in a sieve. It's a partial description that captures some of the essence but is markedly incomplete. I agree with you that the flavor of each paradigm is the partial picture that is determined by the conditioning. Just my observations...

They are all imperfect attempts at describing something that cannot ever be adequately described. Each arises from the cummulative conditioning of a distinct culture so each will necessarily approach the problem in a slightly different way. They are different paradigms yet they both are trying to do the same thing - understand and describe something that will forever defy understanding and description. They are just labels. Through practice you will experience the thing, then the labels don't matter as much. There is only one "energy system" or whatever you choose to call it - the systems are not different, just our attempts to capture it in words and thoughts. It's better to experience it than to study it.

So where have I been? ...wiping grease from my bottom.... Fugue states are a bitch!

I'm hoping it's a good one! Cheers!

Lot's of good advice so far. For what it's worth, here's a bit of a historical perspective. When we were hunter/gatherers, each of us needed to know how to do everything in the culture (make clothes, hunt, medical care and so on). Once permanent settlements and agriculture were established we could divide the work and specialize. Before formal education systems, each of us simply carried on the family business - you had no way of being exposed to anything else. Now with formalized education, anyone can do just about anything. Unfortunately we now have so many options that it's a source of anxiety and conflict. It's a good problem to have. My advice would be to take whatever opportunities you can to expose yourself to different things - everything! Dive into it all. See what turns you on, if anything. If you have an opportunity to continue your education, take it, but don't commit to anything until you are ready. If you have an opportunity to travel, take it. Try things you couldn't imagine liking, just for the hell of it. I have a lot of issues with how we educate our citizens yet undegraduate study is a great way to expose yourself to new possibilities, as is travel, if you can afford it. In the meantime, continue your day to day approach and don't sweat it too much. Your current way - day by day -is very Daoist - wu wei, go with not against... The important thing to remember is that none of it makes a damn bit of difference in the long run. It's all a game, albeit a very convincing one. Once you realize that it gets easier. If you keep the idea that it's just a game in the back of your mind, you can continue to play the game yet not take it too seriously. The more serious you are, the more you will suffer. If you know it doesn't matter, you can afford to really immerse yourself in life with abandon and enjoy it immensely. If it all seems very serious, you will tend to be reserved and feel like a victim. I'm a rat, this is my 4th cycle, so this is an old guy's perspective. My 20 yo son has been struggling with these decisions for a while and my advice to him has been that it's better to happy than rich... Oh yea, and I've been struggling with the same questions for the past few years again, myself...

Some interesting discussion here - I'll echo the suggestions of Eric, Wayfarer, and Taomeow. I'll add this: I can't say for certain without seeing the source but I suspect the translation is pretty accurate. The terminology of Daoist cultivation is not at all sensible or straightforward. It is replete with metaphor and literary allusion. Furthermore, it attempts to capture ineffable experiences in words which (like Laozi says in his first chapter of Dao de jing) is simply impossible. My experience has been that once I've experienced a phenomenon in my meditation or martial training, I can then read about it and understand a bit. If I read about it without having experienced it, there is usually little recognition or value. A good example of this is reading the Taiji classics - as you begin to feel what's happening, the writings start to make sense - in the begining, it's just words. I had a similar experience with cultivation texts like The Secret of the Golden Flower. As an aside - if you plan to retranslate Taoist Yoga, consider spending a little time studying The Secret of the Golden Flower - it would be well worth reading an English version (Cleary's is adequate) and comparing to the original Chinese to get an idea of what Daoist cultivation texts are like. It is one of the shortest and simplest of the canon yet is extraordinarily ellusive. It really only makes sense in the context of experience. Taoist Yoga gets more into specific methods but is referring for the most part to this basic process. I think a retranslation of Taoist Yoga will be exceedingly difficult but the process may well be very educational for those wrestling with it. I've done some translating mostly of martial arts stuff and it has taught me a great deal (snake creeps down, indeed!). Good luck! I really enjoy the martial translating work I do for my sifu but it ain't easy.

I love it!

That's interesting info. I've seen a medical technique attributed to him that is supposedly a sort of shamanic precursor to accupuncture using little cuts in the skin covered by bamboo reeds soaked in medicine. It's like a cross between bleeding and cupping and dit da jow. It's a cool technique to watch. It's called Hua Tuo Zhu Guan Jiu. Anyone ever heard of it?

I would guess that those who consider themselves Daoists know what they believe. I don't think it's that difficult to identify the basic principles, as long as you recognize that it is a moving target with no finite answer and remain flexible. In fact, I think I can sum it up, in my mind at least, in 2 words - wu wei. In my view, it is up to each of us to find our answers and our path. If someone finds it in a limited part of the Daoist canon and chooses to call himself a Daoist, I'm fine with that. It's not for me to tell them what to call themselves nor to judge if their chosen label is valid. I don't find labels to be of much value anyway.

It's not picking and choosing, nor are you a straw dog, if you live the core teachings, IMO. The 10,000 other complexities and window dressings that have been added over the millenia are artifice and politics. Christ's sayings applied to the religions of his day and to his teachings, of which there were relatively few, very basic, and profound wisdom. He was not referring to the incomprehensibly complex mess that has evolved since his death - he wouldn't have foreseen that and probably wouldn't approve of much of it were he alive today. Much of modern Christianity is as far removed from his teachings as it is from Daoism.

Daoism, like the Dao, is more than words. The words are not the thing. Daoism is to each individual whatever they choose to take from it. Debating about whether it's a religion, a culture, a philosophy, or all of the above is fine if you're into that sort of thing. But so is studying whatever parts of it are meaningful and using that in daily life. Just as Buddhism was, more or less, the salient core tenets of Hinduism (a culture) reformed for export (as a religion), so "pop" Daoism includes salient philisophical and spiritual core tenets of Daoism streamlined for mass consumption. If a Christian believes and applies the core teachings of Jesus yet discards the rest of the baggage, is that not Christianity? If a Daoist choses to make wu wei the prime focus of their life yet ignores the pantheon of gods and the magical aspects of cultivation, is he not a Daoist? Must one burn incense to General Kwan to be a Daoist? Must one be Chinese? Must one read Chinese to be Daoist? Do all Buddhists read Pali? I challenge anyone to adequately define Daosim let alone try and tell the world what it should be considered or should not be considered. Very interesting and well written paper, BTW.

Just stumbled across Ceu! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYc_g2eSX0U Here's her covering one of my favorite Marley tunes

Eternity now, Limbs entwined, how does one tell Where you and I end? Oops, I fiddled for too long and got bumped...