doc benway

Good choice. You can also get shorter shinai that mimic a wakizashi. One thing to be a bit careful of - as they get old and dry they can develop splinters along the edge. Bamboo splinters can be nasty! I used to play at kendo and we would diligiently inspect and trim the edges to prevent splintering (which can be particularly dangerous in kendo but not much more than a nuisance for the way you're using it). If splinters are ever an issue, there's a cheap tool you can buy to scrape the edges - sort of like a plane. PS nice photo of the cross-section

Good points - Zen masters certainly tend to be tricksters as well. I love Alan Watts' discussions of the seriousness of religion and the need for humor and enjoyment. Kids may grow out of it but men don't...

Cool - no disrespect or offense taken at all. It's nice to be able to discuss this stuff without it turning into a battle (like on some other forums which shan't be named...). I'm a little surprised to hear a Chen teacher saying that 3 minutes is pretty darn good for santi training. I think the majority of xingyi students stand in santi for quite a bit longer than that - I'm open to correction if that's inaccurate. One difference may be in the attitude or expectations of the teacher and student. My teacher is always correcting my posture (he's quite picky) but not to the extent that I am forced to adopt a particular posture that's so painful that I can't maintain it. To me, part of the practice is to gradually approach "proper" posture by feeling it correct itself over a long period of time through practice. Just like in the taiji form, once the basic principles are understood, the form (and santi/five element practice) can be a self correcting exercise. Similar to your comments, I don't mean to tell you how to practice, or to imply that my way is the right way, or interfere with your teacher's expectations or recommendations - just sharing my personal experience. And don't misunderstand me, santishi is NOT easy. When I first started, I was able to stand for about 1 minute. Within a few weeks, I could do 5 minutes. It took me about 6 months of daily, progressive training to achieve an hour of santishi and there is certainly some discomfort involved. I don't stand completely immobile the entire time. When I need to, I will move my waist a bit, shift the weight a bit, allow the arms to move with the feeling of internal flow - not a lot, but enough to ease some of the pressure. This little bit of movement also helps the body to feel the correct alignment.

Welcome to the forum rhino!

Greetings and welcome!

Very nicely said

Cronos was an excellent film. It's been a very long time but I recall it being about a vampire type entity that was somehow contained in a mechanical scarab. I do recall being very impressed with the film. His other film is good as well (though much less exciting - more atmospheric) and is called The Devil's Backbone.

I'll respond with a question. Do you think there is more disrespect in the Daoist tradition than others? That is - does the Daoist tradition differ substantially from other traditions in terms of internal politics? My answer to your original question would be a paraphrased quote from Osho: True religion (spirituality, whatever you want to call it) is everything that goes in internally for the individual searching for his/her true nature. Everything else, everything external is politics.

I humbly disagree...

It's important to define what you mean by harder. More pain in the rear leg? Impatience with the longer period of inactivity? More tension in the shoulders? Are you able to hold mabu longer than santi? Is that what you mean by santi being "harder"? I'm not sure I understand. When I practice santi I pretty much keep the weight ~ 70/30, more or less. Mabu 50/50, of course. I can do santi for an hour (30 minutes per side) but I can't do mabu for more than 5 minutes - maybe I could do 10 if I really pushed it, but I don't and never have gone that long. With mabu training my knees are flexed nearly 90 degrees. In santi, my rear knee is closer to 30 degrees. I think that's the difference in terms of begin able to hold the posture for a long time. Biomechanically, the pressure on the knee at 90 degrees is considerably more than at 30 degrees. Simple physics.

It's important to remember, however, that Newtonian physics (and relativity) do a much better job of describing physical behavior at the macroscopic level, whereas quantum physics is better at describing behavior only at the atomic and subatomic level.

My thoughts FWIW - What do we mean by internal perspective? In part, santi standing involves isometric muscle contraction and strengthens muscle, improving strength and endurance. I'm going to label that "external" benefit. Does santi (and zhan zhuang in general) do anything else for us? My answer would be yes. I think most xingyi teachers encourage long periods of standing in santi (30 minutes to an hour). This certainly increases the "external" benefit to the musles in any particular posture (my shoulders and rear leg used to scream in santi), however, I don't think that is the only, or even the primary function of zhan zhuang. I think there is more. There is a reason why zhan zhuang postures are less physically demanding than mabu, kung bu, shi bu, pan bu, and so on. My personal opinion is that the postures need to be able to be held for long periods of time to have the effect we're after that I would call "internal". Long periods of standing still have an effect on the mind. We learn to deal with physical and mental inactivity. As the thoughts quiet and we become accustomed to the physical strain of the posture, the mind begins to become more sensitive to subtle things that are usually part of the background noise. Our brains work by selecting out which sensory data to pay attention to and act on. The connection of mind and body is mostly outside of our conscious attention. How often do we really pay attention to things like muscle tension, position of the body in space, workings of the internal milieu, and so on? Probably during meditation or qigong of some sort, certain martial arts or athletic activities, and otherwise very rarely. Zhan zhuang, in my experience, helps me to experience my posture - my physical being, if you will, and develops a level of connection between awareness and the body that generally is not paid specific attention to. Over a long period of time, this different level of awareness affects our martial practice. That's where I think the "internal" aspect of internal arts comes from, at least in part. The almost instantaneous adoption of optimal posture, the heightened sensitivity and responsiveness, which is proper timing, the ability to generate increased and a somewhat different sort of power as a result. The ability to maintain song and relaxation and then express fajin through whole body coordination. These sorts of things are what I derive from standing, circle walking, taiji form practice, all of which I consider "internal" training methods. These sorts of things ultimately are what seems (at least to me) to separate the methods of internal and external training. It's a lot easier to experience this stuff than describe it and for those who haven't trained in both internal and external arts, it may sound like a load of bullshit. I find that when I read or hear about an internal martial technique or experience it means little or nothing to me if I haven't yet experienced it. Once I have experienced it, the reading validates the experience and is suddenly meaningful. I had that happen while reading the taiji classics as well as a brilliant book called the Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-Ying. The first time I tried to read it I got through one or two chapters then gave up - it seemed like total mumbo jumbo. Second time, about 1/3 of the book. Last time - the entire book, although I didn't get everything, but the difference each time was remarkable. In the long run, external and internal training achieve very similar goals, at least in a martial sense. As Chen Pan Ling puts it in his book - internal arts start with the soft and find the hard whereas external arts progress in the opposite direction, both achieving the same ultimate martial result.

This is an entertaining and interesting line of inquiry. A question that occurs to me is the following: Does this definition imply that the the luminous energy was absent prior to "enlightenment"? Is enlightenment the process of causing someone to have a different energy, more energy, or energy that was not already there? Is it possible that it is simply the process of causing one to be aware or sensitive to the luminous energy that already exists? Does the "light" portion of it refer to adding luminous energy or creating illumination (which of course involves luminous energy if you think of the idea of turning a light on the subject)? Do we really change substantially and fundamentally in terms of our energy makeup with enlightenment or is it more a matter of perspective? Certainly the Daoist alchemical method puts a lot of value on the cultivation of qi and it's transformation to shen and void as a method of achieving something. Other traditions don't really have the same approach to the process. Some Buddhist traditions consider that enlightenement is, or at least may be, more of an instantaneous transformation. To me this seems to imply more of an illumination. In many traditions the concept is more one of: you are already it, there's no where to go and nothing to gain because you are already there, there's no real change involved. It's more like lifting the veil of conditioning. Perhaps it takes a certain amount of energy to lift that veil. To be able to illuminate that which is hidden. Maybe that's what cultivating the qi allows us to do. On the other hand, perhaps, like in the Zen approach, the method is simply a way of taking the student to the furthest possible extremes of folly so that they finally feel that they're paid enough of a price to drop the facade. I don't really know any answers nor do I think language can ever really capture the essence of the thing, but I certainly seem to enjoy the questions. My own experience has included the gradual work of Daoist methods to concentrate and transform qi. On the other hand, there have been episodes of instantaneous and dramatic insight which seemed like more of an illumination. Nice post, SS.

Watson is quite similar to Palmer: Artisan Ch'ui could draw as true as a compass or a T square because his fingers changed along with things and he didn't let his mind get in the way. Therefore his Spirit Tower (Daoist term for the mind) remained unified and unobstructed. You forget your feet when the shoes are comfortable. You forget your waist when the belt is comfortable. Understanding forgets right and wrong when the mind is comfortable. There is no change in what is inside, no following what is outside, when the adjustment to events is comfortable. You begin with what is comfortable and never experience what is uncomfortable when you know the comfort of forgetting what is comfortable. I love Zhuangzi, particularly Merton's translation which is my favorite. I never really appreciated Zhuangzi fully until reading Osho's commentaries in the two books When the Shoe Fits and The Open Boat. Whatever else Osho might have been, he could really communicate profound meanings in Daoist literature. I never realized he used the Merton translations - thanks for turning me on to that. One of my favorite Zhuangzi parables is The Strutting Cock and the Fighting Cock Chi Hsing Tzu was a trainer of fighting cocks for King Hsuan. He was training a fine bird. The King kept asking if the bird were Ready for combat. "Not yet," said the trainer. "He is full of fire. He is ready to pick a fight With every other bird. He is vain and confident Of his own strength." After ten days, he answered again: "Not yet. He flares up When he hears another bird crow." After ten more days: "Not yet. He still gets That angry look and ruffles his feathers." Again ten days: The trainer said, "Now he is nearly ready. When another bird crows, his eye does not even flicker. He stands immobile Like a cock of wood. He is a mature fighter. Other birds will take one look at him And run." (The Way of Chuang Tzu, Thomas Merton, 1965) Here is Watson's version Chi Hsing-Tzu was training gamecocks for the king. After ten days the king asked if they were ready. "Not yet. They're too haughty and rely on their nerve." Another ten days and the king asked again. "Not yet. They still respond to noises and movements." Another ten days and the king asked again. "Not yet. They still look around fiercely and are full of spirit." Another ten days and the king asked again. "They're close enough. Another cock can crow and they show no sign of change. Look at them from a distance and you'd think they were made of wood. Their virtue is complete. Other cocks won't dare face them, but will turn and run." Very cool thread Mal! Another worthwhile investment is Lin Yutang's book The Wisdom of Lao-tse. It intersperses chapters of Dao De Jing with relevant excerpts from Zhuangzi. A very scholarly and serious work of Chinese philosophy.

Nope - not a thing. My shi-ye talks about it being possible at very high levels of cultivation. I haven't gotten there. He has never done it either. I don't believe everything people tell me (not even him - I respect him deeply but just because he believes something, doesn't mean it's true). It's my journey and my responsibility to find my answers. I agree with you there, cat. Currently, I don't believe it's possible. If I'm wrong, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'll keep doing what I'm doing either way. My primary point is that our fascination with things like this distracts us from the real thing - our own daily experience and practice. That's the magic. The daily drudgery of endless practice and personal experience - that's where we will find answers.

It works quite well for me, thank you... During levitation, there is no imbalance. There is no need to rock back and forth and hold the arms and legs rigidly extended for balance. There is no need for darkness or surrounding trees. Once off the ground, what is there to prevent freedom of movement? What makes you think I have no knowledge of levitation? That is simply a gratuitous assertion on your part. The same kind of thinking you accused me of, in fact.

Nice link

I would urge extreme caution mixing and using ayahuasca without supervision. Like you've said repeatedly, it is not a drug to be used recreationally, it is more akin to a medication to be used for psychic/spiritual manipulation. Similarly, it should be used under experienced supervision for best and safest results. The effects can be very similar to a psychotic break and can be harmful, even fatal in extreme cases. Please be careful. Until recently, it was available in the Netherlands in Smart Shops. Things are changing there regarding non-cannabis hallucinogens and I don't know where it stands right now. A friend of mine is on his way to Chile for two weeks and hopes to find a shaman there that will expose him to some of their methods. There is a fascinating theory that man's exposure to this or similar entheogens may have been what precipitated the evolution of our "higher" intelligence. Check out the work of Graham Hancock on the subject for an interesting perspective.

If you look closely, you can see him fighting to keep himself upright - he starts to swing ever so slightly, like balancing himself. If one could lift their body off the ground by magic, I doubt there would be much concern for losing balance. If he can defy gravity, why stay in one place? Do it out in the open, away from trees, during the day? Why not fly around, do a few flips, have fun with it... , but what do I know about levitation...? What is it that drives us to believe in something beyond what is right inside of us and in front of our eyes? Isn't all of creation and experience magical enough?

In the majority of martial arts systems (Chinese, Japanese, and Korean), mabu training is primarily used to strengthen the legs through physically demanding, isometric contraction. Throughout all stages of training mabu, fatigue and lactic acidosis of the quadriceps is characteristic due to prolonged muscle contraction (and quite uncomfortable). Mabu is utilized very widely in "external" styles and relatively little in internal styles. A primary purpose of zhang zhuang is to develop song, a relaxed structure that keeps the body in a given posture utilizing a minimum of muscular tension. Lactic acidosis in the thigh muscles is much less pronounced and it is generally acceptable, and often encouraged, to move around a bit to relieve tension and discomfort during standing, unlike mabu. It is relatively easy (physically) to practice basic zhan zhuang for 30 minutes within a few weeks of beginning practice. How many people can stand in mabu for 30 minutes? Mabu training emphasizes muscle tension in the quads. Zhan zhuang usually does not employ as much overt muscle contraction - most postures are closer to natural standing. The way I experience it, mabu maximizes thigh muscle contraction whereas most zhan zhuang postures minimize it. Clearly there are exceptions (santi shi is a good example yet most of us who practice mabu and santi would probably agree there are substantial differences - I routinely stand in santi for 30 minutes on each side - I can't imagine 30 minutes of good mabu). I would agree that it is reasonable to make a distinction between the goals and benefits of mabu training versus zhan zhuang, in general. Certainly there is overlap between the two but there is real difference as well.

It's part of the Dao

Fake

I have his book T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Meditation and find it interesting. It covers a nice range of topics relating to taijiquan and cultivation. I don't know anything about him beyond his books.

I loved it but haven't heard the commentary yet. Great film from a great director. His previous two films were also excellent - Chronos and The Devil's Backbone. Very different but well worth watching (although Devil's Backbone's a bit slow and atmospheric).