doc benway

I appreciate the advice. I rarely do seminars anymore because I don't even have enough time to master what my shifu has given me so far. I just might make an exception and take your advice, though... I'm sure I would learn a great deal if I had the time and opportunity to train with a good Chen teacher. He was very skilled and renowned in external and internal systems. He didn't really mix the two, to my knowledge - he taught them as individual practices. Remember that he was the vice president of the Central Kuoshu Academy in Chungking and it was their mission to preserve as much traditional Chinese martial knowledge as they could. It's a good thing too, as so much of it was purged. Fortunately, CPL and others saved a lot of martial knowledge when they fled to Taiwan that would otherwise have been lost. As you know, much of what is being taught in China nowadays is suspect due to the destruction of knowledge that occured during the revolution. He had planned to write books on taiji, xingyi, bagua, and external practice. Fortunately, he was convinced to write the taiji book first and sadly died before writing anything else... Come on Thaddeus, you know the answers to those questions - quite as well as I, maybe better from the description of your background. You don't have to be patronizing - I was just pointing out that the techniques you referred to are not absent in other styles simply because the forms don't express fajin and altered tempo.

With all due respect, that is an inaccurate statement. Everything you describe above is an inherent part of Yang, Wu, and Sun training. It's simply not explicit in the forms. Also, a much higher percentage of Yang teachers don't know anything about the martial side of training compared to Chen teachers, in my experience, which helps propagate that mistaken impression. Interestingly, I've read at least one article, written by a Chen stylist, that claims that the expression of fajin in the Chen forms and formalized chan su jin drills are both a relatively new modification that occured well after the Yang and Wu styles developed. Not that fajin and chan su jin training weren't present before, just not as formalized or explicit in drills and forms. I don't know it to be an accurate statement but I will try to dig up the reference. Furthermore, when we practice fajin, it is very repetetive (500-1000 reps), or on a heavy bag (at least 100 lbs), or using straps and ropes, or with a partner. I wonder how important it is to show some fajin in the form 2 or 3 times without a partner or anything to give resistence - to me that doesn't mean all that much in terms of actually developing fajin power. It is something that makes the form look more impressive, but does it really do much for the practitioner? Similar with tempo changes, chan su jin training, and so on - all trained with repetetive drills, mostly with an opponent but not explicit in the form. I have been exposed to Chen training and compete and periodically train with Chen folks, but my primary practice is currently Yang and Chen Pan Ling (who incorporated elements of Yang, Wu, and Chen). Perhaps there is something substantial in the Chen style that the others simply don't have, but nothing I've seen yet. The major difference I see is one of emphasis, forms, and drills. At some point I would definitely like to spend more time training in Chen methods - all are certainly valuable, but my current teacher is too good to go looking for anyone else just now. In my experience, the teacher and student are far more important than the style... PS Since this is a neigong thread, i'll add a few comments. My teacher incorporates a neigong system into our training for both external and internal arts students. It includes a variety of sitting, standing, and some moving postures and "exercises". I doubt that it's as extensive as SJ's system but it yields some impressive results for those who devote enough time to the practice. My best shot at describing the hallmark characteristic of neigong would be that it develops the use of the yi to work with qi in a wide variety of ways that are valuable to the martial artist in one way or another. In that way, neigong certainly is a critical piece of martial taijiquan training. Much of the neigong practice, however, is closely related to awareness, consciousness, and similar concepts that are tough to verbalize and more involved with "spiritual" cultivation, for lack of a better word. I'm sure there is a lot more that I haven't learned yet as I haven't learned the entire neigong system yet. My teacher thinks very highly of the neigong component and guards it well. I suspect there are aspects that he'll only pass on to his successor.

I would like to share an experience in the hopes that it might be useful. I don't mean to imply anything about my opinions on this particular conflict or the individuals involved - just a general outlook. I recently went through a time when a particularly viscious guy was on a public character assasination attempt against my shifu. His motivation was political but he did his best to cover that up, of course. Needless to say, it upset me quite a bit. I happened to be reading some stuff at the time by J Krishnamurti which was really illuminating. He helped me to begin asking myself questions and going into them very deeply, like: Why do I feel hurt? What does that tell me about my relationship with my shifu and about myself? Who is it, really, that is feeling hurt? Some really valuable insights came out of that for me, some of which were not terribly pleasant or what I would have expected. Overall, however, it was a valuable experience. YES!!! I can never get enough of them!

I'll check that out, thanks!

That makes sense - the Chen guys train a nice deep mabu. That's tough to do well for more than a few minutes. Again- in my mind, that is more of an external strengthening exercise. I don't think that kind of exercise done for 3 minutes has much of an "internal" effect.

I've not found it to be productive to share experiences that occur during Dao meditation techniques for a variety of reasons that have been discussed on this forum. When I first started, my teacher suggested that I avoid discussing my experiences with others. I didn't follow his advice of course. Among other problems, I found that it often implanted ideas in my mind which subsequently created expectations or anticipation that was distracting and, at times, counterproductive. For example, I tell you that yesterday the point at the base of my spine opened up and I felt a golden light rush up my spine and explode at the base of my skull. You may spend the next 6 months focusing on the base of your spine and wondering why you're not feeling anything there.... Or I tell you that time stopped, I floated in a different dimension, and when I next looked up, 4 hours had passed. You then wonder why time won't stop for you, and so on. Discussing with non-practitioners is even more problematic due to the fact that these experiences are extrememly difficult to capture in words. Now I pretty much limit my discussion of my meditation experiences with my teacher or, occasionally, classmates with whom I train regularly and have a close personal relationship - just my personal bias.

Good choice. You can also get shorter shinai that mimic a wakizashi. One thing to be a bit careful of - as they get old and dry they can develop splinters along the edge. Bamboo splinters can be nasty! I used to play at kendo and we would diligiently inspect and trim the edges to prevent splintering (which can be particularly dangerous in kendo but not much more than a nuisance for the way you're using it). If splinters are ever an issue, there's a cheap tool you can buy to scrape the edges - sort of like a plane. PS nice photo of the cross-section

Good points - Zen masters certainly tend to be tricksters as well. I love Alan Watts' discussions of the seriousness of religion and the need for humor and enjoyment. Kids may grow out of it but men don't...

Cool - no disrespect or offense taken at all. It's nice to be able to discuss this stuff without it turning into a battle (like on some other forums which shan't be named...). I'm a little surprised to hear a Chen teacher saying that 3 minutes is pretty darn good for santi training. I think the majority of xingyi students stand in santi for quite a bit longer than that - I'm open to correction if that's inaccurate. One difference may be in the attitude or expectations of the teacher and student. My teacher is always correcting my posture (he's quite picky) but not to the extent that I am forced to adopt a particular posture that's so painful that I can't maintain it. To me, part of the practice is to gradually approach "proper" posture by feeling it correct itself over a long period of time through practice. Just like in the taiji form, once the basic principles are understood, the form (and santi/five element practice) can be a self correcting exercise. Similar to your comments, I don't mean to tell you how to practice, or to imply that my way is the right way, or interfere with your teacher's expectations or recommendations - just sharing my personal experience. And don't misunderstand me, santishi is NOT easy. When I first started, I was able to stand for about 1 minute. Within a few weeks, I could do 5 minutes. It took me about 6 months of daily, progressive training to achieve an hour of santishi and there is certainly some discomfort involved. I don't stand completely immobile the entire time. When I need to, I will move my waist a bit, shift the weight a bit, allow the arms to move with the feeling of internal flow - not a lot, but enough to ease some of the pressure. This little bit of movement also helps the body to feel the correct alignment.

Welcome to the forum rhino!

Greetings and welcome!

Very nicely said

Cronos was an excellent film. It's been a very long time but I recall it being about a vampire type entity that was somehow contained in a mechanical scarab. I do recall being very impressed with the film. His other film is good as well (though much less exciting - more atmospheric) and is called The Devil's Backbone.

I'll respond with a question. Do you think there is more disrespect in the Daoist tradition than others? That is - does the Daoist tradition differ substantially from other traditions in terms of internal politics? My answer to your original question would be a paraphrased quote from Osho: True religion (spirituality, whatever you want to call it) is everything that goes in internally for the individual searching for his/her true nature. Everything else, everything external is politics.

I humbly disagree...

It's important to define what you mean by harder. More pain in the rear leg? Impatience with the longer period of inactivity? More tension in the shoulders? Are you able to hold mabu longer than santi? Is that what you mean by santi being "harder"? I'm not sure I understand. When I practice santi I pretty much keep the weight ~ 70/30, more or less. Mabu 50/50, of course. I can do santi for an hour (30 minutes per side) but I can't do mabu for more than 5 minutes - maybe I could do 10 if I really pushed it, but I don't and never have gone that long. With mabu training my knees are flexed nearly 90 degrees. In santi, my rear knee is closer to 30 degrees. I think that's the difference in terms of begin able to hold the posture for a long time. Biomechanically, the pressure on the knee at 90 degrees is considerably more than at 30 degrees. Simple physics.

It's important to remember, however, that Newtonian physics (and relativity) do a much better job of describing physical behavior at the macroscopic level, whereas quantum physics is better at describing behavior only at the atomic and subatomic level.

My thoughts FWIW - What do we mean by internal perspective? In part, santi standing involves isometric muscle contraction and strengthens muscle, improving strength and endurance. I'm going to label that "external" benefit. Does santi (and zhan zhuang in general) do anything else for us? My answer would be yes. I think most xingyi teachers encourage long periods of standing in santi (30 minutes to an hour). This certainly increases the "external" benefit to the musles in any particular posture (my shoulders and rear leg used to scream in santi), however, I don't think that is the only, or even the primary function of zhan zhuang. I think there is more. There is a reason why zhan zhuang postures are less physically demanding than mabu, kung bu, shi bu, pan bu, and so on. My personal opinion is that the postures need to be able to be held for long periods of time to have the effect we're after that I would call "internal". Long periods of standing still have an effect on the mind. We learn to deal with physical and mental inactivity. As the thoughts quiet and we become accustomed to the physical strain of the posture, the mind begins to become more sensitive to subtle things that are usually part of the background noise. Our brains work by selecting out which sensory data to pay attention to and act on. The connection of mind and body is mostly outside of our conscious attention. How often do we really pay attention to things like muscle tension, position of the body in space, workings of the internal milieu, and so on? Probably during meditation or qigong of some sort, certain martial arts or athletic activities, and otherwise very rarely. Zhan zhuang, in my experience, helps me to experience my posture - my physical being, if you will, and develops a level of connection between awareness and the body that generally is not paid specific attention to. Over a long period of time, this different level of awareness affects our martial practice. That's where I think the "internal" aspect of internal arts comes from, at least in part. The almost instantaneous adoption of optimal posture, the heightened sensitivity and responsiveness, which is proper timing, the ability to generate increased and a somewhat different sort of power as a result. The ability to maintain song and relaxation and then express fajin through whole body coordination. These sorts of things are what I derive from standing, circle walking, taiji form practice, all of which I consider "internal" training methods. These sorts of things ultimately are what seems (at least to me) to separate the methods of internal and external training. It's a lot easier to experience this stuff than describe it and for those who haven't trained in both internal and external arts, it may sound like a load of bullshit. I find that when I read or hear about an internal martial technique or experience it means little or nothing to me if I haven't yet experienced it. Once I have experienced it, the reading validates the experience and is suddenly meaningful. I had that happen while reading the taiji classics as well as a brilliant book called the Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-Ying. The first time I tried to read it I got through one or two chapters then gave up - it seemed like total mumbo jumbo. Second time, about 1/3 of the book. Last time - the entire book, although I didn't get everything, but the difference each time was remarkable. In the long run, external and internal training achieve very similar goals, at least in a martial sense. As Chen Pan Ling puts it in his book - internal arts start with the soft and find the hard whereas external arts progress in the opposite direction, both achieving the same ultimate martial result.

This is an entertaining and interesting line of inquiry. A question that occurs to me is the following: Does this definition imply that the the luminous energy was absent prior to "enlightenment"? Is enlightenment the process of causing someone to have a different energy, more energy, or energy that was not already there? Is it possible that it is simply the process of causing one to be aware or sensitive to the luminous energy that already exists? Does the "light" portion of it refer to adding luminous energy or creating illumination (which of course involves luminous energy if you think of the idea of turning a light on the subject)? Do we really change substantially and fundamentally in terms of our energy makeup with enlightenment or is it more a matter of perspective? Certainly the Daoist alchemical method puts a lot of value on the cultivation of qi and it's transformation to shen and void as a method of achieving something. Other traditions don't really have the same approach to the process. Some Buddhist traditions consider that enlightenement is, or at least may be, more of an instantaneous transformation. To me this seems to imply more of an illumination. In many traditions the concept is more one of: you are already it, there's no where to go and nothing to gain because you are already there, there's no real change involved. It's more like lifting the veil of conditioning. Perhaps it takes a certain amount of energy to lift that veil. To be able to illuminate that which is hidden. Maybe that's what cultivating the qi allows us to do. On the other hand, perhaps, like in the Zen approach, the method is simply a way of taking the student to the furthest possible extremes of folly so that they finally feel that they're paid enough of a price to drop the facade. I don't really know any answers nor do I think language can ever really capture the essence of the thing, but I certainly seem to enjoy the questions. My own experience has included the gradual work of Daoist methods to concentrate and transform qi. On the other hand, there have been episodes of instantaneous and dramatic insight which seemed like more of an illumination. Nice post, SS.

Watson is quite similar to Palmer: Artisan Ch'ui could draw as true as a compass or a T square because his fingers changed along with things and he didn't let his mind get in the way. Therefore his Spirit Tower (Daoist term for the mind) remained unified and unobstructed. You forget your feet when the shoes are comfortable. You forget your waist when the belt is comfortable. Understanding forgets right and wrong when the mind is comfortable. There is no change in what is inside, no following what is outside, when the adjustment to events is comfortable. You begin with what is comfortable and never experience what is uncomfortable when you know the comfort of forgetting what is comfortable. I love Zhuangzi, particularly Merton's translation which is my favorite. I never really appreciated Zhuangzi fully until reading Osho's commentaries in the two books When the Shoe Fits and The Open Boat. Whatever else Osho might have been, he could really communicate profound meanings in Daoist literature. I never realized he used the Merton translations - thanks for turning me on to that. One of my favorite Zhuangzi parables is The Strutting Cock and the Fighting Cock Chi Hsing Tzu was a trainer of fighting cocks for King Hsuan. He was training a fine bird. The King kept asking if the bird were Ready for combat. "Not yet," said the trainer. "He is full of fire. He is ready to pick a fight With every other bird. He is vain and confident Of his own strength." After ten days, he answered again: "Not yet. He flares up When he hears another bird crow." After ten more days: "Not yet. He still gets That angry look and ruffles his feathers." Again ten days: The trainer said, "Now he is nearly ready. When another bird crows, his eye does not even flicker. He stands immobile Like a cock of wood. He is a mature fighter. Other birds will take one look at him And run." (The Way of Chuang Tzu, Thomas Merton, 1965) Here is Watson's version Chi Hsing-Tzu was training gamecocks for the king. After ten days the king asked if they were ready. "Not yet. They're too haughty and rely on their nerve." Another ten days and the king asked again. "Not yet. They still respond to noises and movements." Another ten days and the king asked again. "Not yet. They still look around fiercely and are full of spirit." Another ten days and the king asked again. "They're close enough. Another cock can crow and they show no sign of change. Look at them from a distance and you'd think they were made of wood. Their virtue is complete. Other cocks won't dare face them, but will turn and run." Very cool thread Mal! Another worthwhile investment is Lin Yutang's book The Wisdom of Lao-tse. It intersperses chapters of Dao De Jing with relevant excerpts from Zhuangzi. A very scholarly and serious work of Chinese philosophy.

Nope - not a thing. My shi-ye talks about it being possible at very high levels of cultivation. I haven't gotten there. He has never done it either. I don't believe everything people tell me (not even him - I respect him deeply but just because he believes something, doesn't mean it's true). It's my journey and my responsibility to find my answers. I agree with you there, cat. Currently, I don't believe it's possible. If I'm wrong, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'll keep doing what I'm doing either way. My primary point is that our fascination with things like this distracts us from the real thing - our own daily experience and practice. That's the magic. The daily drudgery of endless practice and personal experience - that's where we will find answers.

It works quite well for me, thank you... During levitation, there is no imbalance. There is no need to rock back and forth and hold the arms and legs rigidly extended for balance. There is no need for darkness or surrounding trees. Once off the ground, what is there to prevent freedom of movement? What makes you think I have no knowledge of levitation? That is simply a gratuitous assertion on your part. The same kind of thinking you accused me of, in fact.

Nice link

I would urge extreme caution mixing and using ayahuasca without supervision. Like you've said repeatedly, it is not a drug to be used recreationally, it is more akin to a medication to be used for psychic/spiritual manipulation. Similarly, it should be used under experienced supervision for best and safest results. The effects can be very similar to a psychotic break and can be harmful, even fatal in extreme cases. Please be careful. Until recently, it was available in the Netherlands in Smart Shops. Things are changing there regarding non-cannabis hallucinogens and I don't know where it stands right now. A friend of mine is on his way to Chile for two weeks and hopes to find a shaman there that will expose him to some of their methods. There is a fascinating theory that man's exposure to this or similar entheogens may have been what precipitated the evolution of our "higher" intelligence. Check out the work of Graham Hancock on the subject for an interesting perspective.