doc benway

Not necessarily the case. A good teacher will use whatever is needed and sometimes that can be quite extreme. Interesting stories about such things abound, particularly in Tibetan and Zen traditions. That said I do agree we need to be a bit mindful and gentle with each other on this topic because the process can be traumatic and/or destabilizing.

This was precisely how it felt for me when it hit. I laughed for days. I happened to be on vacation with my family at the time and they seemed to get a little concerned about my sanity so I had to consciously reign it in…

This has also been my experience, thank you for bringing this up. I recently completed a multiyear program in which I got to practice with and share experiences with a group of practitioners. It was one of the most profound and valuable experiences of my life. People connected very deeply inside themselves and powerful things came up allowing us to connect to each other through the shared experiences. The courage, vulnerability, and generosity were inspiring. As you say the authenticity and rawness were there for all of us. I learned so much about myself through the others and learned just how valuable and wonderful each and every one of us are. It was an amazing experience.

You are conflating 'nonduality' with imperfect human beings walking their path and sharing their perspectives, which I am finding quite beautiful and inspiring BTW... deep bows to all who have shared their experiences... Your beliefs and mental constructs of nonduality are not it. The failures you perceive are humans dancing their dances. It's OK to be afraid and it's even OK to be smug. It's OK to cling too. We do what we can and I suggest showing ourselves some kindness sometimes. And it's also good to continue practice in whatever fashion works for you. A nondual approach is probably the only method to accomplish this... certainly the most expedient by a mile. This is why the Buddhists say the sutric approach takes very many lifetimes, the tantrikas take several, and the dzogchenpas have a shot in this very life! I could see that...

I was a bit incredulous reading this statement and decided to challenge/clarify if you were being serious: You apparently felt you were being gaslighted: I pointed out that was a projection, I did not intend to gaslight you: In accusing me of gaslighting, I actually felt as if you were gaslighting me! I think it's so easy and frequent to misunderstand each other or misread intent. Especially in a digital medium but really in ALL situations. We have limited information and have no choice but to fill in the gaps, we are always projecting. That is the way the brain works in fact - it filters a lot and fills in a lot.

Case in point

How sure do you feel about that? In a sense, everything is a projection.

I’ve encountered some wonderful people at Bön retreats and some people who are in a lot of pain and looking for help. There can be some big egos and some tiny ones. Some are a bit eccentric, not unlike this community. Overall I find sanghas to be a microcosm of humanity though skewed towards people actively looking to help or improve themselves and grow. The genuine and dedicated practitioners do tend to be very open, loving, and powerful people though they also tend to be quiet and rarely in the spotlight. I suggest that what we think we know about others is more a projection of our own assumptions and expectations than anything related to who they really are (speaking here in a relative sense). I also suggest that we sometimes overlook the Two Truths doctrine in our discussions about nonduality here. The absolute perspective is very real for those who have access. The relative perspective is no less real for those who do not. Both are valid and deserving of respect and acknowledgement. We have no choice but to live and work with what we can access. Highly advisable to keep an open mind as this can change at any time.

I used to be partial to sarongs, easily transformed from loincloth to kilt-like garment as desired. Got used to them when performing in a Balinese gamelan, very comfy in warm weather. The dzogchen teachings say yes, though others have consistently challenged their claims in Buddhism and other traditions. Arguably there is no more effective or expeditious method, provided we have a karmic connection to the teachings and lineage.

Next you’ll be telling us we’re too nondual to use the little Bums room. In which case we’d say we use All the bathrooms!

Sorry, you don’t get to define our pronouns. Get with it ralis! 😘

If you tried to do that with cut/paste it will not work in the first post of a thread. You would have to copy, then paste into a spoiler box, then delete the redundant info. This is because first posts in a thread cannot be empty or deleted. You may want to give that a try.

@Giles Your editing permissions in Current Events do not appear to have any restrictions. I believe the software has some inherent limitations when it comes to editing the initial post in a thread. There are differences between editing the OP and subsequent replies. If you want more specifics, please PM me with more detail on what changes you were trying to make to the OP.

... or adventure?!

Really wonderful…. Cannabums take note! https://watch.amazon.com/detail?gti=amzn1.dv.gti.4193a146-eb57-4fdd-bb2a-d8fdce4ee83e&territory=US&ref_=share_ios_movie&r=web

My favorite is Odilon Redon blue.

Good question! I will sit with that for a while. The immediate answer is I do it whenever I feel so inspired. Sometimes it’s an image or a mood or an insight or intention. This latest was that I wanted to use a yellow RAM syllable. It’s a purification, the seed syllable of fire. I may make one but haven’t yet. I couldn’t find an image online but came across this beautiful blue HUNG and use it as an intention to connect to the space in my heart when interacting with others here.

The answer is a jiffy. The question is what is 1/100 of a second. I guess we can stop now.

What is the question?

That’s exactly how it happens. No warning, nothing one does or does not do makes it happen. It is more a gift than an achievement. In nondual Buddhist and Bön traditions the best meditation is referred to as non-meditation. One does absolutely nothing at all and can do it anywhere.

It’s interesting you say that, I really don’t feel or recall being reactive towards discussion of choice. Feel free to point out an example. I make choices all the time. I also get wrapped up in duality all the time. At any given moment I might be in a story or more directly connected to NOW, choicelss awareness for Krishnamurti. For sure there is one often present that may choose to practice or choose to indulge in a duel. And I find myself dueling unintentionally all the time. And there is always the knowing that I am not that…. It is like a beacon and a doorway to NOW. She offers good advice. I’ve worked and continue to work through any number of attachments to mundane things, to meditative experiences, to practice itself, to the practitioner and his various hopes and fears, to gurus, to so many me’s with so many needs… I will say this, if (un)done precisely nondual practice is as attachment free as a practice can be as it is an active process of recognizing grasping and opening and releasing into NOW. In doing so we are actively releasing the one who grasps, turning back the light, cutting the root. Eventually we can release even the effort of releasing. Of course there is always the possibility of deviation and error in our practice and that’s the refining and deepening process. But if done properly one is not grasping at nonduality/union. That’s a fundamental flaw in understanding and practice. It’s the opposite of that. That’s an important point. If you disregard that point we are not discussing the same thing. If I am reacting to something I think it’s more to the assertion that practicing a nondual path is simply grasping at something different than the dualistic paths. It can be like that but then it is duality, a projection of mind, error in the view, meditation, and conduct. Nonduality/union is not that… it is a different view to be found through practice or grace. And you know the view is correct when all stages are there spontaneously - view, meditation, fruition, and conduct, no separation, all is spontaneously perfected! (in dzogchen language) But you can only know it through practice and personal discovery, never through thought and concept.

This thread has created a new term in my spiritual vocabulary - dualsplaining - when someone lacking experience in nondual realization and practice explains it to others who live and practice with it, refusing to consider the validity of their perspective

This gets to the crux of the OP, do we work with the leaves and branches or the root? That is the difference between methods emphasizing duality and nonduality. I don’t think we often have a choice. We work with what is present for us with the tools we can access and use effectively. Also important to recognize that this can change and flexibility is valuable. While you may want to avoid “continually diving down,” “removing all the conditioning first” is no less formidable an undertaking. In fact, most wisdom traditions and my own experience suggest dealing with the root is far more expedient than chasing the myriad leaves and branches. Once again, do we really have a choice? I think the important point is recognizing what we can access and what supports us and to work with that, remaining open to new possibilities as we move along the path.