doc benway

How close does JZ Knight come? Perhaps not evil...

Now that would be interesting.... I'd also like to see Ali G have a shot at them...

Excellent points Cloud and Todd! Sorry for the very wordy response... but here goes: Perhaps one point at issue here is the definition of enlightenment. In your arguments, it seems to me that enlightenment must be a state of complete transformation. A single, quantum, permanent, unvarying event or state. Buddhists would have us believe that this is possible and was exemplified by Buddha. Daoists would have us look at the Immortals and the existing recluses and wayfarers living only for cultivation, and so on... Many yogis might qualify, etc... Is this a state that exists in life? U.G. Krishnamurti, from what little I know of his work, would probably say no. I used to believe that enlightenment was a state of perfect understanding. Now, I'm less convinced. Perhaps that's because I'm just scratching the surface, perhaps not. In my experience, it is a stepwise process of awakening and realizations. Is there an ultimate, perfect state of enlightenment that may occur during life? How could that be determined? Are the enlightened gurus and teachers that much farther along the path than you and I? How to measure that? I would agree with you that there is a tendency toward compassion and empathy as one becomes more aware and awake. When I began to cultivate, I lost my taste for meat. I'm not a strict vegetarian but meat is usually unpleasant for me now. My sense of responsibility to others and compassion have also grown. I believe that such qualities do develop as a by-product of cultivation and, presumably, the further along the path we are, the stronger these tendencies will be. My ability to detatch from emotional motivations in my behavior and my recognition that attatchment to desires is the primary illusion have developed. THese will undoubtedly continue to develop with practice. The issue is, what is the definition we're using for enlightenment and do human weaknesses, persistent illusions, earthly desires, aberrant behavior, psychopathology, addiction, and all the other bad boy traits become exclusive of the possibility of enlightment? Can we achieve perfection? Is that the prerequisite to being considered a guru or enlightened? My current answer to these questions is no, that could certainly change but it's where my head is at right now. Is J Krishnamurti more or less enlightened than U.G. Krishnamurti? How do they compare to Swami Nirmalananda who starved himself to death when he felt it was his time to go? Is Alan Watts less enlightened because he enjoyed alcohol and sex? Is Osho less enlightened because he was a megalomaniacal, greedy, selfish, abusive, exploitative, addict? What about Gurdjieff who was sexually exploitative but felt guilty about it? Osho is the extreme, Watts is more subtle, JK and UGK very sublte distinctions. My point is that when we become enlightened, we are still enlightened humans. I'm not convinced that we can go beyond our humanity in life. I don't know that I believe that, even as enlightened humans, we can expect to be able to completely shed our human traits, desires, and weaknesses. Some do a much better job than others and those are the examples I'd truly like to follow and refer to as enlightened. Does that mean that the others did not reach and experience a deeply profound connection with the lifeforce that they could pass on or use to exploit others? Are we to link a specific pattern of behavior to our definition of enlightenment? As humans we tend to make such distinctions and judgements but that's really all just illusion, anyway... isn't it?

I think that there can be a dramatic difference between spirtiual awakening/enlightenment/insight, whatever you want to call it, and self awareness/psychic health. I think that you can be pretty out of touch with your emotions, motivation, or have significant psychopathology and yet achieve or channel a profound level of insight or connection. Why should it be that awakening brings with it a particular morality or code of ethics? Beyond awakening, we are still human until death, period. If we have a fucked up psyche, that may continue despite waking up. If we believe that the Dao does not judge, has no particular morality.... why should enlightenment be associated with any particular type of morality or human behavior? Osho, Gurdjieff, Crowley, Sai Baba, all examples of profoundly insightful men with personality disorders/mental illness/drug addiction... In addition, assuming someone has advanced or heightened awareness or insight, they will be much more likely to pursue a path of preaching/guru-hood/spiritual leadership if they have some degree of ego-need or megalomania. After all, the way of nature/Dao is the way of finding the lowest point, not the highest. Wu dei is not consistent with expousing one's spiritual accomplishments, even under duress. In my own experience, meditation and growing insight have not only not lessened my psychological stress, but have made me much more acutely aware of issues in my life that are painful and unpleasant. Cultivation and mindfullness are very valuable and useful to me and have helped me to deal with emotional suffering but I really don't see that they've changed my fundamental nature all that much.

I am.... I'll start one.

I think that it's just another facet of the experience that power corrupts... He started as a visionary with (presumably) good and altruistic motivation. His initial movement in India was radical and visionary. His teachings were illuminating and insightful. Ultimately, he demonstrated that we are all imperfect and subject to human weakness and frailty. It really is sobering to see someone you admire from afar up close... I've seen it in many people that I once admired... I'm trying to learn to admire their positive qualities and accept and love them in spite of their failures.

OH, I don't know, 90 Rolls Royces, more Rolexes than wrists, more women than Snoop,, it's a start...

I rarely have time to do anything at work but work. Sometimes I have a short break to read a little or check out a forum online. Two days ago I got to read a chapter in "The Sex Lives of Cannibals" - pretty good book so far but I'm only to chapter 4. If you're having back and shoulder issues, you may want to consider standing meditation. Moving around and stretching are important but I think standing can help both areas as well. I'd start with the basic wuji posture - feet shoulder width or so and hands in front of kua with shoulders very slightly internally rotated so that the tiger's mouths (1st web) face eachother. Suspend crown of head, slightly tuck chin, sink chest, relax shoulders and elbows, slightly tuck pelvis to elongate and loosen lower spine, slightly bend knees, and balance over bubbling wells. If this is all well known to you, forgive me...

He was implicated in a lot of shady stuff, including murder, tax evasion... I think he did some jail time. He drove Rolls Royces and wore very expensive jewelry. I've heard he availed himself of the charms of many of his female disciples. Some of his disciples were apparently pretty nutty as well and it's tough to know how much was his corruption vs his disciples' vs trumped up charges in an attempt to discredit him. He was very threatening to the establishment during his heyday. The wikipedia has a nice overview of his controversial and short life. Nevertheless, his writings on Dao are very insightful. When I'm a guru, I wanna be just like Osho...

Osho's disciples transcribed many of his talks. He has three books devoted to Daoist works to my knowledge. When the Shoe Fits and The Empty Boat are both devoted to commentaries on selected parables of Zhuangzi (Chuang-tzu). Tao: The Pathless Path is devoted to commentary on excerpts of Liezi (Lieh-tzu). I find Daosim to be where Osho really shines. His interpretations and expositions on Daoist thought, stimulated by Zhuangzi and Liezi, really resonate with me. He sometimes contradicts himself and his life betrayed his human weakness (like all of us). His style is very distinctive and puts some people off. He filters Daoism through his own culture and approach which, although very anti-establishment and anti-religious, can be as dogmatic as those he criticizes... My favorite is When the Shoe Fits - highly recommended!

I'd agree that apprehension seems to me to be more time-constrained, that is - related to a future event or expectation. Fear is more broad and general - not necessarily linked to any future or past event. Fear is more about immediate threat avoidance, apprehension more about future threat avoidance perhaps. These are very loose and subjective distinctions - there's a lot of overlap.

My favorite spot is the beach, any quiet beach, and the best time for me is sunrise. Unfortunately, I live > 3 hours away so that's a vacation treat for me!

Very nicely put. I feel much the same! One criticism of Daoism and Buddhism that I've encountered is that they are so impersonal. That they lack a "personal relationship" with God or that they lack a concept of God. For me it couldn't be more the opposite. How can I feel closer to "God" than the realization that I am one and the same, that there is no separation other than the illusion arising from our transient time on Earth? How can I have a more personal relationship than with myself/ourself? It certainly is a comforting and natural feeling. Back to your question, it's not a glossary, but Eva Wong wrote a pretty good overview called Taoism for Shambala publications that can serve as a basic reference covering devotional aspects, cultivation aspects, philosophical aspects, historical aspects... If you're not a book addict ( I am!), you can probably find the majority of the material on any of a number of nice websites devoted to the topic.

When I first started practicing Dao meditation, I asked my teacher if he could recommend a particular translation of Daodejing. He said no. I asked if that was because he never read it in English. His reply was something like - there is no need to read, just sit, reading is for scholars, now practice... (in his mouth, the word scholar is less complimentary sounding than usual...).

I agree 100%. The questions being asked in this thread's opening and follow up questions seem to be focusing more on specific techniques: My comment was more focused on the lack of specific methods or techniques discussed in Daodejing. Achieving wu wei in one's daily life certainly appears to be the way of the sage in Laozi, as you so nicely put it, Lin. This does not necessarily mean that Laozi felt this could be achieved or needed to be practicied through seated meditation, standing, qigong, taiji, or any other specific method that is currently in vogue. None of these are mentioned in Daojejing to my knowledge. Certainly, the principles in Daodejing are consistent with meditative practices and can be applied to seated meditation, taiji... My comment is more to clarify that we really have no idea if Laozi (assuming he is a historical character in the first place, which I believe, he was...) practiced any particular style or method of meditation or did he simply feel that one needed to cultivate wu wei in everyday life?

I find it interesting to see all the discussion on Laozi and his meditation techniques. To my knowledge there's next to nothing about meditation practice or technique mentioned in Daodejing. He apparently despised the cultivation that was common in his day aiming for prolonging life or achieving "immortality." As is clear through his work, he believed in wu dei, going with nature. He believed that one should live his natural life to the fullest and die a natural death. It's likely that he practiced some form of meditation but I'm not aware of any documentation of that. Is anyone aware of oral traditions handed down documenting specific techniques attribute to Laozi? I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

I liked the original Iron Chef show. Chef Morimoto has a killer restaurant in Philadelphia. My son was a huge fan of his and we went there for his birthday and he got a photo with the chef... It was fantastic. I caught the American version once and didn't like it. The only show I watch regularly on TV is Top Chef - it's a stupid, melodramatic, cooking competition but, for some reason, I dig it! Other than that I do like to watch movies from time to time and I normally watch them at home on DVD rather than pay the ridiculous prices to sit in a movie theater listening to cellphone ringtones... My son was over a few nights ago and we watched Curb Your Enthusiasm - his favorite show - it was really funny. My kids like to watch the Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, the History Channel, and my son likes the mixed martial arts shows on Spike.

In my reading and studies, I frequently come back to a feeling that I'd like to share. I don't know if I can capture it well in words but I'll try. As I work on cultivation, I find more and more that the nature of consciousness/awareness/self-ness is so amazing, so elusive, and so beautiful. Yet, there are so many traditions and people out there who seem so focused on something more than that. Simple being and experiencing is not enough. We look for magic, supernatural abilities, short-cuts, pomp and circumstance, secrets, costumes, rituals - anything to make us feel that we have found something special. Yet all of that simply distracts us from simply being and getting closer to the source. It's almost as if we're afraid of the truth or purposefully (if subconsciously) trying to distract ourselves from the simple and plain. As if the showy stuff is some sort of proof that there is something more out there or that we're closer to the answer. Yet the "more out there" and "the answer" is inside and can best be seen when the all the extras are let go, through the simple and the quiet... Anyway, it's funny, sad, frustrating but mostly fascinating to see the human machinations which do very little more than take us further away from our true nature. And don't think for a minute that I'm immune to it. I guess it's the awareness of that very tendency in myself that has sensitized me to what I see around me. Thanks for listening... sometimes I learn something from trying to express these feelings and hopefully this is a good place to do just that.

Some of my favorite books on Daoism and Taijiquan: Reading Osho and Alan Watts genuinely helped me to wake up... Osho: When the Shoe Fits and The Empty Boat - Both contain commentaries on Zhuang-zi's parables Tao: The Pathless Path - Commentaries on Lie-zi Alan Watts: The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are Eastern Wisdom - An inexpensive collection of three of his short but profound works - What is Tao? What is Zen? An Introduction to Meditation Thomas Cleary (translations): The Secret of the Golden Flower Opening the Dragon Gate Kuo Lien-Ying: The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle Deng Ming-dao: The Chronicles of Tao Raymond Smullyan: The Tao is Silent

Check out a book called Supernatural Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind by Graham Hancock. It's an encyclopedic work that tries to demonstrate a causal relationship between human experimentation with hallucinogens and the seemingly dramatic shift from the primitive to the "modern" human mind about 30,000 - 40,000 years ago. Very interesting stuff. This stuff sounds scary... http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml

Easy, after watching the movie trailer. In fact, it does measure up to my experience in life. There are many people demonstrating their "powers" or God's "powers" by showing their students or patients or congregants shaking in a film clip, dojo, or church. Everyone from kiai masters to faith healers to tele-evangelists. They all look exactly the same and use similar methods. It's quite common, predictable, and unimpressive. There is a kernel of truth in all of their practices that is soiled by the sideshow. Max's methods for cultivation may be productive but I'm disappointed by the packaging. Pretty much anything that catches and holds my attention for a while... Taijiquan and Dao meditation more than anything else I'd consider attending an East Coast seminar. I believe they require 20-30 participants

Agreed, that's 虛靈頂勁 'xu ling ding jin': xu~empty, ling~light/lively, ding~crown of head, jin~energy It's directly out of Taijiquan Lun or Taijiquan Treatise attributed to Wang Zongyue from X'ian in Shaanxi province. Nothing is known about Wang for sure but by legend he is the link between Zhang San Feng and Chen village. It certainly predates Yang Cheng Fu and, probably, Yang Lu Chan. It's also a part of the Wu/Li Classics. 2nd stanza - "Empty, lively, head-top energy; qi sinks to dantian; neither incline nor lean; suddenly hidden, suddenly appearing. If (opponent's) left is heavy, then (mine) is empty; if (his) is heavy, then (mine) disappears. If one looks up, it seems all the taller; if one looks down, it seems all the deeper. If one advances, it is even further; if one retreats, it is even closer. A feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight. My opponent does not know me, I alone know him. A great hero faces no enemy. In a word it comes to this." To my recollection it generally occurs spontaneously. Sometimes it happens during seated meditation. I mentioned it to my shiye once and he told me to ignore it during meditation. I often get a very similar feeling in my left shoulder blade area.... I ignore it as well.

I've had a similar sensation periodically. Never lasted more than a few days and never amounted to anything in my case. On a somewhat related note, I've recently been able to focus and maintain my mind of intent at the very crown of my head much more consistently while practicing the form and push hands and it's done wonders for my balance - xu ling ding jin.

Be a little careful here - Laozi may have been a historical character but also may simply be a legend. Nothing really is know for certain about his life. The authorship of the Daode jing may have been a single person or may have been a compilation of earlier wisdom from multiple sources. Unanswerable questions. What does seem likely is that most of the Daoist meditative traditions converge on some basic common themes as Taomeow eloquently described.

One is wuji, two is taiji, could three refer to consciousness/awareness? It could make some sense that differentiation of complimentary aspects of being (ie the two or taiji) is a prerequisite to everyday consciousness which, in turn, produces awareness of the 10,000 things. It's then our aim in cultivation to return to the source - beyond or prior to regular consciousness, ie prenatal consciousness. I've seen other sources which refer to three as being analogous to the "child" of the two, implying reproduction or the beginning of life. Reproduction being the source of the myriad things. Like mentioned earlier - creation and evolution. Just like any single character has multiple meanings and interpretations, Daode jing has infinite possibilities. Cool stuff and excellent question... I agree that references to consciousness and perception are inseparable from references to the external universe - mutual arising.