doc benway

What is the question?

That’s exactly how it happens. No warning, nothing one does or does not do makes it happen. It is more a gift than an achievement. In nondual Buddhist and Bön traditions the best meditation is referred to as non-meditation. One does absolutely nothing at all and can do it anywhere.

It’s interesting you say that, I really don’t feel or recall being reactive towards discussion of choice. Feel free to point out an example. I make choices all the time. I also get wrapped up in duality all the time. At any given moment I might be in a story or more directly connected to NOW, choicelss awareness for Krishnamurti. For sure there is one often present that may choose to practice or choose to indulge in a duel. And I find myself dueling unintentionally all the time. And there is always the knowing that I am not that…. It is like a beacon and a doorway to NOW. She offers good advice. I’ve worked and continue to work through any number of attachments to mundane things, to meditative experiences, to practice itself, to the practitioner and his various hopes and fears, to gurus, to so many me’s with so many needs… I will say this, if (un)done precisely nondual practice is as attachment free as a practice can be as it is an active process of recognizing grasping and opening and releasing into NOW. In doing so we are actively releasing the one who grasps, turning back the light, cutting the root. Eventually we can release even the effort of releasing. Of course there is always the possibility of deviation and error in our practice and that’s the refining and deepening process. But if done properly one is not grasping at nonduality/union. That’s a fundamental flaw in understanding and practice. It’s the opposite of that. That’s an important point. If you disregard that point we are not discussing the same thing. If I am reacting to something I think it’s more to the assertion that practicing a nondual path is simply grasping at something different than the dualistic paths. It can be like that but then it is duality, a projection of mind, error in the view, meditation, and conduct. Nonduality/union is not that… it is a different view to be found through practice or grace. And you know the view is correct when all stages are there spontaneously - view, meditation, fruition, and conduct, no separation, all is spontaneously perfected! (in dzogchen language) But you can only know it through practice and personal discovery, never through thought and concept.

This thread has created a new term in my spiritual vocabulary - dualsplaining - when someone lacking experience in nondual realization and practice explains it to others who live and practice with it, refusing to consider the validity of their perspective

This gets to the crux of the OP, do we work with the leaves and branches or the root? That is the difference between methods emphasizing duality and nonduality. I don’t think we often have a choice. We work with what is present for us with the tools we can access and use effectively. Also important to recognize that this can change and flexibility is valuable. While you may want to avoid “continually diving down,” “removing all the conditioning first” is no less formidable an undertaking. In fact, most wisdom traditions and my own experience suggest dealing with the root is far more expedient than chasing the myriad leaves and branches. Once again, do we really have a choice? I think the important point is recognizing what we can access and what supports us and to work with that, remaining open to new possibilities as we move along the path.

When I was engaged in Daoist practices I recall my teacher warning us not to discuss our experiences with other students until we reached a certain point in our training which took a few years. I also recall that he was careful to never describe what we should expect to experience in our practice and he rarely spoke about long term goals, never in any serious detail. He was very firm about us discovering the landmarks along the way for ourselves which he would verify and this would be the basis for further instruction. I suspect this is partly because our experiences of progress in cultivation are very personal and unique to each of us as practitioners. This is largely related to the fact that much of our progress is related to what obstacles there are in us, be they physical, emotional, energetic, etc… I remember several times asking him to recommend something to read and he would tell me that reading was a complete waste of time if I was interested in Daoist cultivation. He felt that any tim e spent reading and studying was wasted time better spent practicing.

I think that one potentially serious obstacle on the path is developing too fixed a notion of what it is we are after, be that the goal or the method. It is fine if one is working directly with a lineage holder who can accurately point and guide us, not so much if we are trying get that information from reading classics without expert guidance or extrapolating from less authoritative sources. I think one of the most valuable aspects of working with a credible teacher, preferably a lineage holder, is that we can have certainty in the way and the direction we need to go. Otherwise there is the potential for an enormous amount of wasted time and energy. The adage comes to mind - miss by an inch, miss by a mile. My training in both Daoist alchemy and Tibetan methods has involved a great deal of precision. No way I could have possibly extracted sufficiently accurate instruction from reading classics even if I were a native speaker of Chinese and Tibetan, let alone trying to translate into a different language with dictionaries or (cough) Google translate. Even professional translators miss the mark if they’ve not had personal instruction in the methods, the view, and the expected signs and results. Caveat emptor!

Milky Way over White Sand National Park, New Mexico, USA

The mind is not what is being trusted in nondual practice. Trust grows out of the tangible benefits we derive from practice. Of course mind always involved in assessing our path and our progress. What else do we have? Mind and it's essence, there is nothing beyond that. The subtle body is a encompassed by that as is the physical body. Note that in your approach you are in fact putting that 2 year old in charge. The mind is what is interpreting the dream whether lucid or after the fact. The higher Self is what exactly? In my view it is a projection or aspect of mind. Wisdom is connection to the mind's essence, there is no higher Self other than that in my view. We will simply need to disagree, our perspectives are different. The benefits of a nondual approach are non-interference, wu wei. We trust in the process itself, analogous perhaps to your higher Self. Or we see through the one who created it and is lost in the labyrinth and it simply dissolves. Some feel nothing needs to be done, for them that is truth. Some feel things need to be done, for them that is truth. The nature of mind is the same for both and is the best source of directions, it is the prevalence of mind that is different. And of course either could be wrong.

I do. I trust the openness and awareness of my own heart, mind, and body easier than I trust an intuitive or interpreter. Both can be valuable but rare like you point out. And who’s to judge their accuracy? That can be tricky. When we develop trust in the inner source it’s always available and it’s been tested and proven. Another way to approach dreams is to induce lucidity. Once that has stabilized we see the dream-like quality of reality and can break patterns and gain control in our lives by learning to change in dream time. Many other benefits of lucid dreaming in addition. Yes and no. If there is no labyrinth, we can simply rest and act as needed, no distractions. That is the nondual way. If the labyrinth is there and does not self-liberate we work with it. To whatever degree we can connect with the mind’s essence (nondual practice) we tend to make more progress. This is because there is no better guide, no one with a better overview than the inner guide when it is clear and pure, when we are connected. Another way to put it is that the one who finds themselves in the labyrinth is the one who created it in the first place so the way becomes more clear. So even in tantric practice the best way is to practice while resting in the nature of mind. Second best way is using the mind - reciting, hearing and seeing clearly, and understanding the meaning. Third way is praying with deep devotion and trust. Indeed If you can find the who with absolute certainty the labyrinths’ doors are open. Nondual practice supports us to find and become this who.

Thodgal practice in dzogchen lineages works in a similar way. Seeing and hearing what appear to be external visions but knowing they are arising internally breaks down the inner-outer boundary.

Using single-pointed focus to induce nondual realization. The instruction sounds very much like tummo. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

@schroedingerscat Your PPD is there as long as you are looking at... Otherwise who knows?

I enjoyed the talk. ‘He sometimes refers to “isness.” While I have a sense of what he is referring to is that something he defines somewhere? Can someone offer a concise definition of the word?

Is this your teacher @dwai?

🙏🏼 I greatly benefit from Bön energy practices with the channels, winds, and chakras. The paradigm is similar to the Indian. It’s always easy to kid oneself whether about nonduality, dreams, or anything else, who and what do we trust? This is a benefit of non-interference practice. I hunted for a very long time and it’s different for me now. Nothing more to find or figure out really, not conceptually anyhow. Just far more opening and consistency would be nice. I resonate with the ‘walk away’ part most at this point on my path. Non-interference. No kidding. Just leave it as it is. Not because things can’t be better but who is doing the improving? Can I trust space and awareness? Can I trust the internal narrator or external narrative? All are always there. Barb sums it up elegantly…

There's a beautiful statement in the dzogchen teachings that I believe comes from the Seven Mirrors of Dzogchen attributed to Drenpa Namhka in the 8th century: It's positive qualities are inconceivable, Like the revelation of a king's treasure. The one who rests in its true meaning Enjoys the inexhaustible wealth of its fruition.

My experience is a little different than some of what I’ve read here, fwiw. There are no shortcuts to nonduality, it is always there whether we are aware or not and our recognition of it simply happens… or not. Nothing we can do, or not do, will reliably bring us to this realization that I am aware of. It is more a gift, or for a rare few perhaps a curse, than an achievement of any kind. I do think it is supported by resting and relaxing into the present moment as opposed to thinking and analyzing. I’m not sure how useful it is to imagine the koshas as a stepwise process as there is no meaningful boundary or gatekeeper that insures we complete our “work” with one before addressing another. I could be wrong in this of course. Our personal approach can certainly be in stages but in reality I think we are always working at multiple levels simultaneously, perhaps emphasizing one or another. Nondual realization does not prevent us from continuing to examine and develop ourselves. In some ways it has enhanced my process of self examination and personal growth. For some the impetus to do just that disappears. It was like that for me for a while but in continuing to live in relationship to others there came an insight that I could do so much more with this perspective than simply rest on my laurels. It led me to connect with a wonderful teacher and spiritual lineage and community and has enriched my life both personally and professionally. All of the above is just my experience, every one of us is different. While there is a lot of talk about “no self” and so forth, that is not my experience. Even in the midst of powerful nondual experiences there is still this body and mind that I am connected to until death. It can be extremely subtle, approaching the limit of dissolution, but I believe there is always at least a tiny bit of personal perspective there in this human life, even in the rapture of nondual awakening, the clear light of deep sleep and the open restfulness of samadhi. The self is still always there if I’m brutally honest and carefully observant. It is simply a matter of knowing and experiencing that this self does not limit me, it does not define me, it is a familiar, usually comfortable, and extremely powerful construct that carries with it the illusion that it is all that I am. That’s simply not accurate. It is there to work with to whatever degree we need or desire both before and after an awakening experience. As always don’t believe anything I say. Do the work you are drawn to, whatever that may be, and look deeply at yourself (I mean that in a general sense, not pointing at anyone in particular).

Do Nondualistas Dream of Rainbow Sheep?

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