doc benway

who plays the nondual guitar?

Something I posted elsewhere worth mentioning here… As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize. ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

This! If our lives and relationships don’t reflect qualities like openness, kindness, and joy what benefit is there to all of our machinations and reflections? Understanding non duality is worthless and experiencing non duality is worthless. Expressing non duality in our actions is priceless.

A variation on your words… Dualism is thinking. Throw out the concept of non dual/dualism and realize unlimited potential.

As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize. ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

In case anyone misunderstands my intention, I do not mean to give the impression that anything I say is authoritative or absolute… just the half-baked notions of an American pointer!

No worse than calling someone a pointer! 😘

Yes, precisely. The feeling of me is diminished or at least not overly engaged in the experience. Thoughts still happen, emotions happen and they come and go more freely when awareness does not identify with them as forcefully and automatically. Your experience was a good example as was Bindi’s. Similarly the full blown nondual experience is another example as is the experience of the Clear Light practitioners sometimes have during deep sleep when practicing sleep yoga. Dwai described this earlier in the thread.

You said language is believed to be absolute. I asked by whom? I asked that because I don’t believe language to be absolute. That is clearly reflected in my posts. Of course language is relative, I’ve never suggested otherwise, never even pointed otherwise. You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I guess that’s to be expected in a thread on nonduality…

@AKD You should be good to go

By whom?

Words point at things, they are not things themselves only labels but there needs to be some shared experience for communication to occur. I have nothing to prove, nor do I feel any desperation, just sharing my experience. Sounds like it was a good move for you.

Emptiness points to the absence, or non-interference of self in experience. Bindi and Blue Eyed Snake describe it in their experiences above. It is an important part of my practice. It is empty but clear and vital. Space is not empty, space is a metaphor for the non-grasping and unbounded aspect of the mind’s essence.

I would say “absolute nature” points to the basic essence of all things, beyond which there is no further reduction or greater potential. Nonduality refers to the fact/assertion that at the level of that most basic essence, all things, including my own consciousness, are intimately connected and inseparable and have been that way always and forever. Nondual realization is experiencing that first hand. It is unmistakable and a guaranteed view and life changer and it’s validating how similar the descriptions tend to be among laypeople and yogis going back millennia. It is also nothing more than a deeper, more open and empathetic perspective belonging to a living human being IMO. I was beginning to remove blocks but unexpectedly stumbled into profound and life shifting nonduality about a year into my Daoist meditation practice, though I was not meditating at the time of the shift, I was a passenger in a car heading to vacation. For me the stable awareness that doesn’t cling is no less an objective or achievement, although they’re both as much blessings as achievement. That clear and responsive heart/mind when fully open is the body of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times and 10 directions. The difference between this pure and perfect mind and nondual realization is largely about certainty and empathy for me. I agree that nonduality is not necessary for self-devlopment but nonduality is the “result” of ultimate selflessness and it is a direct path to the Awakened Heart, the spontaneous and authentic need to help others as if they were oneself. It happens because it actually feels like they are oneself - ultimate empathy. That has been my experience of nonduality, in part. Lots more can be said about it but it’s not always good to say things about it. In dzogchen teachings this Awakened Heart is the pinnacle of agency and has the same characteristics as the pure and perfect awareness or natural state of mind - it is empty (space), clear (awareness), and warm (enlightened qualities and action). I continue to be human and I regularly look for support and guidance to do this gift justice (by gift I mean a lot of things - life, health, connection to wisdom teachings and a living master, and to the various wonderful and terrible experiences that have shaped me). I’ve backslid remarkably since it happened nearly 20 years ago but the certainty and empathy remain very palpable and I am getting better at judging myself less and trusting the space more. I’m glad we can bump into each other from time to time… this suggests our paths aren’t as far apart as they might seem. 🙏🏻 ❤️

Wonderful and vital questions Iskote. I carry similar ones with me and they’ve helped guide me to the right path. My conclusion is that there are no right and wrong answers, only answers that are right or wrong for me personally at any given moment. Similarly there is no absolute authority outside of the deeper, more intelligent aspect of myself that lies hidden under all of the doubts and questions most of the time. At time I do rely on authority figures but always with a degree of circumspection and caution.

I don’t have time to get into specifics at the moment but I do think there are distinct commonalities that are experienced during and after non-dual gnosis. Of course there are differences also as our experience is more related to what was previously blocking us and no longer present, than it is to the absolute nature itself which cannot be experienced directly. I base this on discussions with meditation masters, other laypeople with non-dual gnosis, and my own experience and studies.

In our tradition this involves 3 steps - 1. Listen carefully to the teachings of a lineage holder with an open heart and open mind. If you don’t understand some things be patient with yourself and remain open to the possibility that at some point it will make more sense. 2. Reflect on the teachings you’ve received until they make sense in your mind and in your practice. Ask for help if needed. 3. Actualize the teachings through personal experience and seeing the signs of fruition, then compare your own experience to what is described in the classic writings of the old masters This brings it full circle and prevents deviation from the path by student and teacher alike.

My ego is no longer a tyrannical master much of the time but more like a drunk friend with OCD than an obedient servant… I’m a work in progress…

I think this is why the preliminaries are not total BS. For most people they are at worst helpful and often essential in approaching this very subtle but potentially overwhelming undertaking. Even later, after a good deal of experience, “preliminary” teachings and practices can be a great support. This is part of what the nonlineage nondualists lack that makes them susceptible to disillusionment, as described by Jeff Foster. That is precisely why i’m hoping to focus us on practice and application, at least for a while.

Space as a concept is very interesting to me and it’s unique characteristics make it an ideal metaphor for the base of all. Mother is also a wonderful metaphor especially when taken with child - mother space and child awareness, their union giving rise to the warmth of enlightened qualities like the Four Immeasurables. Space as a meditative experience is even more profound and is a crucial element in the practices and applications. It is heavily emphasized in Bön.

While mainstream practice and teachings in many religions emphasize the dual perspective, there is a non-dual core at the heart of most. The institution and its administrators benefit from the dualistic perspective but clergy with integrity and grace, and open-minded and discriminating seekers can find empowerment and deep support in many religions if they are fortunate enough to have proper guidance and curiosity. The truth is that the dual perspective needs to be emphasized as the majority of people have no other perspective available to them and not enough time, energy, or interest to pursue these deep and subtle paths. We see this as much in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism as in Abrahamic religions. The masses simply don't dive deep into the esoteric. The mystics in every religion are those who can uncover and share these truths - the Kabbalists, the sufis, the Jesuits, the yogis, and sages for example. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Judeo-Christian traditions but arguably they have been more affected by politicization and subterfuge. I think this is also related to the differences in the Eastern and Western philosophical trends as well as cultural tendencies (materialism vs collectivism for example).

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind... There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself. The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence. Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices.

I think part of the reason is that the closer we get to non-conceptual practice the less confidence we have in the veracity of terms to define it. In the teachings with which I'm most familiar the simple terms give way to multiple terms attempting to point at it from different directions. Metaphors, similes and reference back to one's experience take the place of definitions. Rather than clear thinking being needed, I would offer that what is needed is the clarity that is independent of thinking. I appreciate you sharing that. It is a valuable and important teaching tool and support. When i used that expression, I was referring to my personal experience as a practitioner. As the sense of self that is very busy thinking, elaborating, coloring and commenting on my experience slowly releases and rests (getting smaller as blue eyed snake suggests), my experience of whatever is present in that moment, in the senses, in the body, and mind becomes more clear, more immediate, more naked and fresh. I'm trying not to define this so much in conceptual terms but rather staying with the experience of practice. Thanks for that, I was using that as a reference since we used it earlier in the thread. No model we could possibly offer can be established as real. What is real is the direct experience of our practice. All else is conceptual labeling and elaboration. There is a "realness" to that also but I don't want to get bogged down in that. I do think the model is useful to make the point that what is affected by such practices include the activities of mind, the interpretation and experiences of sense consciousness, the content and influence of store consciousness, even the "manas" or habitual and karmic tendency to identify with a self. Real changes occur in experience and behavior (hopefully we'll get to some discussion of that if we don't get too derailed). I get the point you are making here. As Westerners steeped in millennia of Judeo-Christian ontology and epistemology and the power of the materialistic view, there is a powerful authenticity and appeal to a completely different and empowering perspective informed by a more collective and less materialistic cultural and historic background. I don't see your comment as belittling or as Judeo-Christian-splaining but I can understand others' sensitivity on the subject. Hard to avoid completely in this format and what theory you offer is often quite well informed and beneficial for me. So thanks!

The only differences between dualism and nondualism that are interesting to me are the practice and applications. The conceptual stuff is way over my head, seriously. In practice there is a well-defined and clear distinction. Dualism acknowledges a subject and divides into subject and object, that object coincidentally also being the subject as well as anything external. I cultivate something or change myself in some fashion. Subject working on subject/object. Nondualism acknowledges a subject and asks it to rest as completely and consistently as possible. Subject and object get closer, we open to and embrace all experience in the freshness of the moment. Subject releasing, not interfering. Need I say it? Wu Wei And for all the time we cannot fully manage with that simplicity alone (most of the time for me lately, it varies) we take advantage of physical, mental and energetic practices. That karmic connection to body, speech, and mind will likely never be extinguished but changes do occur with practice, in all levels of consciousness including Manas. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53592-differences-between-dualism-and-non-dualism/?do=findComment&comment=980971 For me the holistic support found in the wisdom lineages, is a critical piece missing among the non-lineage nondualists like Foster and Harrison and more. The simple nondual insight, though powerful, isn’t always enough for everyone (anyone?) all the time, until Buddhahood… We need to work on the full program as dictated by circumstances (karma) at any given moment. I’d love to see more talk about practice and less about theory but will defer to @Bindi. I could start a new thread but really dig the vibe here! 🔥

Maybe we should combine this thread with the who believes video thread? 😆