doc benway

Thank you George Carlin : • I think I am, therefore, I am … I think. • Isn’t making a smoking section in a restaurant like making a peeing section in a swimming pool? • I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, ‘Where’s the self-help section?’ She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. • What if there were no hypothetical questions? • Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac? • If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done? • When I ask how old your toddler is, I don’t need to hear ’27 months.’ ‘He’s 2’ will do just fine. He’s not a cheese. And I didn’t really care in the first place. • If the black box flight recorder is never damaged during a plane crash, why isn’t the whole airplane made out of that stuff? • Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. • Some people see things that are and ask, ‘Why?’ Some people dream of things that never were and ask, ‘Why not?’ Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that. • Most people work just hard enough not to get fired and get paid just enough money not to quit. • ‘Bipartisan’ usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. • Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity. • Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it. • I have as much authority as the Pope. I just don’t have as many people who believe it. • One can never know for sure what a deserted area can look like. • When you step on the brakes, your life is in your foot’s hands. • Some people have no idea what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.

Given that debates surrounding non-duality date back 2-3 millennia, I suspect you're correct. Nothing wrong with that... I enjoy the topic far more than Trump talk and Current Events and feel resolution is equally likely here... I love that we've argued a very polarizing topic (how ironic is that, non-duality is polarizing?) for 19 pages without insults, ad hominem, or reports.

I think it can be, it can basically short-circuit any spiritual discussion. And I think it sometimes has the effect, intended or not, of invalidating others’ positions. I suspect this can come across as cold and arrogant. Not saying you are any of those things but I think non-dual speak can come across that way.

Fantastic Voyage!

Used to, yes. At least that’s my sense. I talk about it in context and the insight is always there so no doubt it influences my comments, but I don’t think I shortcut discussion much, at least that’s not my intention. I feel like I avoid discussion more than shortcut in general. I could be wrong… 😆

Definitely, I have a very close friend and confidante. We discuss deep matters often and I used to have a tendency to play the non-dual card. It would piss him off and he was very direct so I learned how irritating and unhelpful it can be through his feelings. I try to be sensitive to that.

Whether we personally connect with nonduality directly, conceptually, or not at all science is already embracing it in several fields. For example, in biology and ecology there is no way to separate an organism from its environment, there simply is no such thing in existence. Organism-environment is a non-dual continuity and yet we can speak of properties of each. Both ways of looking at the system have merit and validity. If we look at ourselves closely we can find no separation from our environment. We can move around and exist within a bag of skin which makes us feel separate but have never for an instant not been directly connected in a life or death fashion to everything around us. We are a specialization of our environment, a symptom as Alan Watts has said, we are its sensory apparatus and agency of “intentional” activity. In physics, a relatively recent theory of quantum mechanics, championed by Carlo Rovelli, called the relational theory, brings us to a non-dual foundation of reality. There are no discrete objects, all observations represent relationships and there is no boundary between observer and observed. Essentially for me this is a discovery of karma and dependent origination through the vehicle of quantum physics. I thoroughly enjoy reading this stuff, when I can follow it. Here are some things to check out if interested. General overview: https://www.science20.com/train_thought/blog/dualitynonduality_duality-75423 Biology, excellent series of articles, the first and last in particular: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10333975/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10333976/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10485609/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10885546/ Physics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_quantum_mechanics All the published articles I can find are too technical for me but Carlo Rovelli’s book Helgoland is a good layperson’s intro. https://seop.illc.uva.nl/entries/qm-relational/ https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9609002.pdf

and

And politics is different? At least we won’t blow each other up! 😁

Hopefully at least as long as the political threads…

I don’t feel troubled. I enjoy your challenges and the discussion it stimulates. It’s been a fun thread. The topic of non-duality is always a difficult one to discuss in a public forum. It’s a very tricky and subtle subject and it’s been actively disputed by many high level scholars and practitioners for millennia. You’re in good company. It’s been kept very secretive for most of that time in the Bön and Buddhist communities for this very reason. Believe me or not, there is something very special to it. If you are not drawn to it, best to follow what calls you as I have no doubt you will. Warning - the complimentary nature of Yin and Yang is non-dual at its very core so I expect you will bump into it again sooner or later. It can’t hurt to keep an open mind.

I practice a path that is unequivocally non-dual but I don't dismiss you or your path. If non-dual teachings don't resonate with you, best to honor that and move on. I would suggest that everyone's path is folly at some level until we see through it. And yet it is important to be true to your authentic self and what it needs to grow in the moment. I suspect there is some karmic connection between you and non-dual teachings, otherwise you would not be this engaged. Sometimes we can be very resistant to something we need, sometimes we don't need it but it draws us. FWIW, when I encounter something that doesn't make sense to me but seems to be catching my attention, I let it be. I stay open to the fact that it may be of benefit to others and the possibility that at some point it may click with me. There are things like that throughout the spiritual teachings for me, dual and non-dual alike.

Preach on: Several of us are pointing to ‘being with what is, as it is.’ Open to it fully through all senses, including thoughts and feelings. Do not engage or elaborate. Do not change it. Be with it and settle in. We can practice this with our own pain - mental, energetic, and physical, as well as others.’ Trust that when action is necessary, it will be there and be appropriate. If we are interested in non-duality, I believe this is the point. Being with everything that comes to us, as it is. Allowing it to enter, abide , and move through our experience. Noticing when we react and slowly beginning to identify more consistently with the spacious awareness rather than the endless, finite objects, including EVERYTHING written in this thread and forum, especially this. This is meditation that grows into conduct and fruit. Eventually we may get a sense that experience isn’t coming in, it is going out… there are practices that focus on this like sky and sun gazing and 7 weeks in a dark room. The instant we refer to Non-duality and all related matters, if we are not describing and referring to our personal experience with this ‘being with’ we are simply conceptualizing. It doesn’t matter if we are pro or anti-dual. Everything we can possibly say misses the mark, what we are referring to is un-imputable. The instant we turn our attention inward and begin to observe without interference (wu wei), we are already connecting to what we are trying unsuccessfully to conceptualize and in a far more meaningful way. When I worked at the Maryland Shock Trauma unit in the 80’s and 90’s we had a saying, words to live and work by… Just fucking do it ~ Attila Poka Preach off

@Apech I have not heard similar reports from anyone else and am not aware of any changes made recently. Have there been any software/hardware changes on your end?

This clears up a mystery! Why are there so few Daoist masters and so many stray dogs in China? Practicing wu wei, the Daoist masters starve to death and their dogs become homeless… 🥴

It was a joke loosely referring to a few self-proclaimed Daoist masters online, at least one of whom was a member here for a short time…. not intended to insult you in any way. Sorry if it came across that way! _/\_

I appreciate the quotes from Foster. I read his first book around when it was released. It helped validate some things for me but was lacking something. I can see now it was lacking the respect and appreciation for the challenges and expressions of dual experience which is the central part of life for all, regardless of special insights. It was lacking tools for working with things that special insight doesn’t dissolve. It’s nice to feel his authenticity and vulnerability in these recent quotes. The things he criticized in non-dualists were very much evidenced in his own early writing. .

The exception to this rule is anonymous strangers on the internet, no?

This is fun! I can't remember the last time I was this engaged in a thread... Thanks all!

I'm trying to find parallels between Bindi's description of the agency of a higher self and my own practice and perspective. Higher will for me refers to spontaneous expression of enlightened qualities which I liken to wu wei. I don't anthropomorphize or impute the source personally but recognize that some traditions do.

I don't think it's all that rare, I know far more than one or two people who are quite accomplished at it, but perhaps it isn't emphasized enough by some teachers and practitioners. Tantric, dzogchen, and Daoist practices all provide methods to cultivate this. Jesuits, Kabbalists, and Sufis too... It is the ultimate core of the Mahayana teachings, it is wu wei. In fact, I think it happens all the time though perhaps not perfect and continuous in many. Yes, it is hard to establish because it has to be found from the inside as it were... It's the source of healing and creativity. "The authentic path" I like that and agree from my perspective. Then again everyone has a unique authentic path.

Non-duality can have the effect of causing subject to object. There's no need to dissent, the Two Truths document Proves both perspectives correct! I recently came across this brief article from Ken McLeod in Tricycle, a Buddhist magazine. I think it is worth a few minutes of time... Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, “The flag is moving.” The other replied, “The wind is moving.” Overhearing this exchange, Hui-neng said, “Neither flag nor wind is moving; mind is moving.” (Case 29, The Gateless Gate) Hui-neng is wrong here. Imagine you are looking at a tree on a windy day. You feel the gusts against your cheeks. You see the leaves shaking and flashing as they twist and turn. You see the branches swaying back and forth. You hear the leaves rustling and the tree creaking. And you are so clear and open that there is no movement, not inside, not outside, not anywhere. Nothing moves. Now imagine that you could experience your thoughts and feelings the same way. They come and they go, but for you there is no movement, none at all. It doesn’t matter what arises—love, anger, need, pride, grief, joy—you experience it, you experience it all, you know it, and yet nothing moves, nothing whatsoever. It is possible to experience life this way, and when you do, words are utterly useless. This way of experiencing is indivisibly immediate, unfathomably profound, unthinkably simple, and unimaginably ennobling. It must be true! And thus is born the notion of ultimate truth. Stay with that experience for a few moments. Inside you are as quiet as a pond that lies in the center of a deep forest, a pond that, protected by the trees around it, has been undisturbed by even the slightest breeze for a thousand years. Feel the stillness, the infinitely deep stillness, within you. Because of that stillness, you hear everything. You hear the cry of a baby when it first comes into the world. You hear a young man’s gasp of disbelief and despair when his girlfriend breaks things off. You hear the sobs of fear of a woman stricken by breast cancer. And you hear the rasping breath of those whose time in the world has come to an end. You hear the sufferings and struggles of those brought low by misfortune, bad luck, or their own folly. You hear the cries of pain and hurt of those who are oppressed, exploited, or abused. You hear the pain in the voices of those who have to oppress, exploit, or abuse others. You hear the suffering of the world. You see and hear others struggle—locked in beliefs, flooded by emotions, or burned to ashes by their worries, their concerns, their obsessions. And it’s all so unnecessary. They don’t know that there is another way. You see that and know that. It must be true! And thus is born the notion of relative truth. Profound, transformative, and liberating experiences are frequently recast as higher or deeper truths. As human beings, we struggle with life, and when we find a way of experiencing life that ends all struggle and suffering, we grasp, we hold, we cling. Nothing is more important. We know that something else is possible. We are different because of it. At least we feel different, so it must be true. We want others to know it, too. But how do you tell them? You put your experience into words, whatever words you can. You come up with ways to explain why this is possible, how it comes about, why it is so important. But these words, these explanations, are, in the end, as relevant as proofs of the existence of God. You can debate and argue all you want—and people have done so for centuries—but these explanations, these systematic conceptualizations, are beside the point. If they don’t help to bring out something of that experience in others, they are at best a waste of time and, at worst a rope with which people tie themselves into knots. There is no ultimate truth. There is no relative truth. These are just notions, ideas. You have not touched cosmic consciousness, the one true reality, the ultimate, the infinite, the totality pure. Those words don’t refer to anything. They are poetry, but people forget that. You’ve experienced something, something profound, and it has changed you. Great. But for goodness’ sake, don’t make a religion out of it. Just live it.

… forcing me to subject Damn you Apech, I was this close!

It’s simply not accessible, until it is… Self-secret, That’s why the Tibetans finally decided to teach it publicly. And that’s not a bad thing, read UG Krishnamurti. We each have to follow our path, no other path will do. I’m reading a book, very slowly, that I think would be a wonderful guide and support for anyone interested and attracted to Bön non-dual teachings: Living Wisdom, a collection of teachings on dzogchen by Lungtok Tenpai Nyima.