doc benway

Symbols like a crystal ball, the sky, a candle flame, and the sun evoke understanding in me that are not linked to words and border on non-conceptual. Metaphor is verbal, my mistake, but examples can be visual, or refer us to non-verbal experiences such as the feeling of warmth we remember as a child when our mother hugged us and made us feel safe and loved.

I believe authentic transmission can include both verbal and non-verbal elements, not to mention symbols, metaphors, examples through behavior, and so forth. The way my teachers use the word transmission is to indicate that some knowledge has been effectively transferred from master to pupil, eg pointing out the nature of mind. Transmission is as dependent on the student as the teacher. If you don’t get it, no transmission has occurred. I find the word and concept of transmission is often too vague and implies something magical when the truth is relatively simple and down to earth.

The making of a pointer sister

This is a good example of why that disclaimer is important to keep in mind. They are just Dwai's thoughts on the matter, nothing more, nothing less. When I read that the subtextual disclaimer looks something like... ... [according to my interpretation of Hindu doctrine and my personal experience]. All respect to Dwai as I think he has deep knowledge and personal experience, but I personally don't think the mind can understand precisely how consciousness works. That's just my current understanding and practice - doesn't mean it's truth. A big part of this nonduality thing is learning to dis-identify with our thoughts, our beliefs, our feelings, and those of others. We don't suppress, discard, or control them just recognize that we are something more (or less) than that. That something can only be felt and intuited, not seen or heard. We can point at it but can't show it to anyone. I also add this disclaimer to what I read in classic texts, even when hearing my teacher and his teachers! Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree, even with Dzongsar Khyentse RInpoche... both are simply thoughts. We can trust very deeply but we also need to understand that our life experience is unique and we may understand, experience, and interpret things differently, even from the masters. As I've mentioned earlier if I don't understand or disagree with something from what seems like a credible source, I accept the non-understanding or dis-agreement, allow it to be there and remain open to the possibility that I may develop clearer understanding at some point. No one knows or understands everything. This is why we need to listen, then reflect, then actualize in our own practice and compare back to what the teachings are saying.

I think it's useful to keep in mind that no one here can determine what is valid or necessary for anyone but themselves, . We don't often add that disclaimer to our opinions but it should be understood.

This is where so much passion and devotion come from. There is also absorption in the music that can be nostalgic and emotional. And there’s the drunk friend with OCD that hangs out with me, especially when writing or before performing…

who plays the nondual guitar?

Something I posted elsewhere worth mentioning here… As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize. ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

This! If our lives and relationships don’t reflect qualities like openness, kindness, and joy what benefit is there to all of our machinations and reflections? Understanding non duality is worthless and experiencing non duality is worthless. Expressing non duality in our actions is priceless.

A variation on your words… Dualism is thinking. Throw out the concept of non dual/dualism and realize unlimited potential.

As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize. ~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

In case anyone misunderstands my intention, I do not mean to give the impression that anything I say is authoritative or absolute… just the half-baked notions of an American pointer!

No worse than calling someone a pointer! 😘

Yes, precisely. The feeling of me is diminished or at least not overly engaged in the experience. Thoughts still happen, emotions happen and they come and go more freely when awareness does not identify with them as forcefully and automatically. Your experience was a good example as was Bindi’s. Similarly the full blown nondual experience is another example as is the experience of the Clear Light practitioners sometimes have during deep sleep when practicing sleep yoga. Dwai described this earlier in the thread.

You said language is believed to be absolute. I asked by whom? I asked that because I don’t believe language to be absolute. That is clearly reflected in my posts. Of course language is relative, I’ve never suggested otherwise, never even pointed otherwise. You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I guess that’s to be expected in a thread on nonduality…

@AKD You should be good to go

By whom?

Words point at things, they are not things themselves only labels but there needs to be some shared experience for communication to occur. I have nothing to prove, nor do I feel any desperation, just sharing my experience. Sounds like it was a good move for you.

Emptiness points to the absence, or non-interference of self in experience. Bindi and Blue Eyed Snake describe it in their experiences above. It is an important part of my practice. It is empty but clear and vital. Space is not empty, space is a metaphor for the non-grasping and unbounded aspect of the mind’s essence.

I would say “absolute nature” points to the basic essence of all things, beyond which there is no further reduction or greater potential. Nonduality refers to the fact/assertion that at the level of that most basic essence, all things, including my own consciousness, are intimately connected and inseparable and have been that way always and forever. Nondual realization is experiencing that first hand. It is unmistakable and a guaranteed view and life changer and it’s validating how similar the descriptions tend to be among laypeople and yogis going back millennia. It is also nothing more than a deeper, more open and empathetic perspective belonging to a living human being IMO. I was beginning to remove blocks but unexpectedly stumbled into profound and life shifting nonduality about a year into my Daoist meditation practice, though I was not meditating at the time of the shift, I was a passenger in a car heading to vacation. For me the stable awareness that doesn’t cling is no less an objective or achievement, although they’re both as much blessings as achievement. That clear and responsive heart/mind when fully open is the body of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times and 10 directions. The difference between this pure and perfect mind and nondual realization is largely about certainty and empathy for me. I agree that nonduality is not necessary for self-devlopment but nonduality is the “result” of ultimate selflessness and it is a direct path to the Awakened Heart, the spontaneous and authentic need to help others as if they were oneself. It happens because it actually feels like they are oneself - ultimate empathy. That has been my experience of nonduality, in part. Lots more can be said about it but it’s not always good to say things about it. In dzogchen teachings this Awakened Heart is the pinnacle of agency and has the same characteristics as the pure and perfect awareness or natural state of mind - it is empty (space), clear (awareness), and warm (enlightened qualities and action). I continue to be human and I regularly look for support and guidance to do this gift justice (by gift I mean a lot of things - life, health, connection to wisdom teachings and a living master, and to the various wonderful and terrible experiences that have shaped me). I’ve backslid remarkably since it happened nearly 20 years ago but the certainty and empathy remain very palpable and I am getting better at judging myself less and trusting the space more. I’m glad we can bump into each other from time to time… this suggests our paths aren’t as far apart as they might seem. 🙏🏻 ❤️

Wonderful and vital questions Iskote. I carry similar ones with me and they’ve helped guide me to the right path. My conclusion is that there are no right and wrong answers, only answers that are right or wrong for me personally at any given moment. Similarly there is no absolute authority outside of the deeper, more intelligent aspect of myself that lies hidden under all of the doubts and questions most of the time. At time I do rely on authority figures but always with a degree of circumspection and caution.

I don’t have time to get into specifics at the moment but I do think there are distinct commonalities that are experienced during and after non-dual gnosis. Of course there are differences also as our experience is more related to what was previously blocking us and no longer present, than it is to the absolute nature itself which cannot be experienced directly. I base this on discussions with meditation masters, other laypeople with non-dual gnosis, and my own experience and studies.

In our tradition this involves 3 steps - 1. Listen carefully to the teachings of a lineage holder with an open heart and open mind. If you don’t understand some things be patient with yourself and remain open to the possibility that at some point it will make more sense. 2. Reflect on the teachings you’ve received until they make sense in your mind and in your practice. Ask for help if needed. 3. Actualize the teachings through personal experience and seeing the signs of fruition, then compare your own experience to what is described in the classic writings of the old masters This brings it full circle and prevents deviation from the path by student and teacher alike.

My ego is no longer a tyrannical master much of the time but more like a drunk friend with OCD than an obedient servant… I’m a work in progress…

I think this is why the preliminaries are not total BS. For most people they are at worst helpful and often essential in approaching this very subtle but potentially overwhelming undertaking. Even later, after a good deal of experience, “preliminary” teachings and practices can be a great support. This is part of what the nonlineage nondualists lack that makes them susceptible to disillusionment, as described by Jeff Foster. That is precisely why i’m hoping to focus us on practice and application, at least for a while.