doc benway

How can we not after a lifetime of being a subject? Everything we can name must be an object, it is inherent in language which is the substrate of thought. I’ve come to believe this is an important reason why emptiness is so heavily emphasized in Buddhism.

Sounds like a site that would require paid membership and offer moderators compensation for their sifting and moderation time.

What Would a Taoist World Look Like? The juxtaposition of the title and OP point to a valuable area of contemplation and personal exploration in Daoism, for me. It gets to the question of what exactly is in accord with the Way and it is not? Has anything or anyone ever been a hair's breadth separated from the Way? Do the classics describe the Way things are or the Way things should be? What separates those two concepts? We seem to think there is a particular Way to be that is more Daoist and others that are less so. There is an inner judgement that suggests we need to be different than what we already always are... I've heard some imply that the activity of animals and nature in general follow the Way but not that of people, what would that be? I'm no expert and no scholar, and I have no definitive answers, but I find these sort of questions interesting and stimulating.

All good questions and I appreciate your discussion of "spirit." My comment was simply a response to liminal luke's question about whether non-dual realization is the culmination of spiritual development. Based on personal experience, the experiences of others, and teachings from non-dual traditions, there does not seem to be a direct correlation between any particular spiritual path or level of personal development with non-dual realization. On the other hand, the theme of non-duality in various forms seems to be at the heart of many spiritual traditions, East and West, regardless of how they are categorized.

The rainbow body is not something that is built. It represents the dissolution of all karmic traces including the physical body which resolves into the 5 elemental lights. It is one expression of complete enlightenment, seen in the dzogchen teachings of Bön and Buddhism. It is said to predate Buddhism in Tibet.

I guess that depends on what is meant by spirit

Wonderfully similar to my teacher’s core meditation instructions for connecting with the mind’s essence - Rest in the stillness of the body Rest in the silence of speech Rest in the spaciousness of mind Leave everything just as it is

For sure. Non-duality as a topic of discussion and analysis is very confusing. It is inherently irrational and paradoxical. Methods of guiding practitioners towards a deeper understanding take forms that reflect this such as the koans of Chan and Zen, the pith instructions of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, even energy and body focused practices of Tantra and Daoism. All leading us away from spending time and energy on intellectual understanding towards a more visceral connection to what is. The teachings with which I’m most familiar rarely try to explain because that is not an effective approach. Instead the focus is on metaphor, example, and personal practice.

Nice to see you Carson and thanks for sharing some of your path and experiences. Welcome back! 🙏🏼

My teacher likes to frame it as what we are able to experience is the release of obstacles. We live with one or more particular obstacles, limitations of perspective, our entire lives and they are suddenly gone, leading to an abrupt and potentially dramatic shift in experience. This is very personal and explains why people describe their experiences as they do.

In a sense non-dual realization has nothing to do with spiritual development, which is an activity of mind. Non-dual realization is a shift, from not-knowing to knowing; a lifetime of seeing things from a trusted and unquestioned perspective and then having that perspective exploded.That shift is an experience, described in many ways (thunder bolt, God experience, empty, Oneness, Self, awakened, unbounded, immortal, unborn, undying, unconditional love, even catastrophe…). I don’t think it correlates with any particular part of the path. It seems to occur randomly. I have a friend who woke up at age 8. Spiritual practice may be able to help it to happen but often it happens early on the path and the practice can help it to mature and stabilize, and express itself as service to others, and sometimes it never happens although I’m guessing it happens at death of we’re aware enough. It can also fade into the background, covered up by habits and foolishness, but I don’t think it’s ever gone completely. From the non-dual perspective there is no need of any path; beginning and end have no real meaning. Non-duality can only ever refer to NOW. Any words we can throw at it, whatever we think it is or say it is are wrong, always, it is unimputable.

I think this would be a good option. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/288210/the-tibetan-book-of-the-dead-by-gyurme-dorje/

How many non-dualists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Not two! 🥁

You’re so awake… I heard you got arrested for resisting a rest! 🤓

I’m so empty… ….I tried to get a non-dual supremacy tattoo but couldn’t, nothing for the ink to stain! 💪🏼 And I know who BOTH my parents are… 😝

@Vajra Fist Tap on your name in the top right corner and the drop down list should include "Ignored users." Tap on the link and add as many members as you'd like to the list. Voila!

This feels very dzogchen self-originated and primordially pure When you find that self I would love to hear more detail! Not at all diametrically opposed. I have no interest in getting rid of my self (can someone can help me understand precisely what that is ffs?) and I couldn’t if I wanted to… that’s just another thought. I am a wonderful and necessary part of me and yet there is far more to me than anything I could ever define or verbalize and this broader perspective simply puts me in my proper place. I resonate with that last part, it seems very much an expression of emptiness…. or meditation. Those states don’t necessarily disappear but I can be free. This part just takes, for me, some precise instruction and devoted practice. That was what I was describing in what you quoted from me earlier… full circle!

Even the distinction between life and death becomes a bit fuzzy when trying to speak of non-duality and Buddha-nature. The body of light, the liberation of all traces in the dzogchen traditions, is generally said to occur at death but there are some stories of it occurring in life.

Non-dual realization has nothing to do with intellectually negating the sense of self at the level of mind consciousness. That is what happens when people read and think about non-duality but it is not non-dual realization. The realization itself is a spontaneous and unpredictable occurrence, often referred to by traditionalists as a blessing or a grace. I've never heard anyone claim that manas consciousness is easy to extinguish. Your conclusion is contradicted by the article you reference. Non-dual realization has a profound and irreversible effect on store consciousness and manas consciousness. As per the article, the store consciousness registers, processes, and stores everything we experience, not to mention that of our ancestors, and there is little in life that affects one as profoundly and irreversibly as non-dual realization. Manas consciousness, what links our sense of self to store consciousness, is precisely what the realization seems to alter, otherwise there would be no claim of non-dual realization. The effects on mind consciousness are variable and transient due to its flexible and responsive nature. It is true that manas consciousness and the store consciousness are not eradicated, that would be equivalent to Buddha, complete and permanent liberation of all karmic traces. I haven't heard anyone claim that, at least no one I thought had genuine non-dual realization. The sense of self persists beyond non-dual realization, and yet it is no longer felt as the true and sole nature of what we are, it is informed by a deeper, more certain, and more pervasive knowledge of self that has nothing to do with thought, feeling, or concept.

I just spat my mint iced tea all over the internet!

No, it would be more accurate to say I was sharing some common experiences of meditation.

Thanks for sharing that. Sorry that you misunderstood my words. What I described there were meditative experiences with obstacles to an unobstructed connection to the present moment. You characterizing those comments as “… he occasionally has to go on a retreat to maintain his non-dual perspective” is a gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding.

Nothing on DaoBums has any basis in science except in the political threads! It's ALL propaganda BS!!! Sorry to hear that ralis. Good luck to you and your neighbors! _/\_

Not something I have ever said to my recollection. Non-dual realization doesn't work in the way you imagine. Your assumptions and conclusions on the subject throughout the thread are erroneous. You are welcome to your ideas on non-duality but please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks