doc benway

Space as a concept is very interesting to me and it’s unique characteristics make it an ideal metaphor for the base of all. Mother is also a wonderful metaphor especially when taken with child - mother space and child awareness, their union giving rise to the warmth of enlightened qualities like the Four Immeasurables. Space as a meditative experience is even more profound and is a crucial element in the practices and applications. It is heavily emphasized in Bön.

While mainstream practice and teachings in many religions emphasize the dual perspective, there is a non-dual core at the heart of most. The institution and its administrators benefit from the dualistic perspective but clergy with integrity and grace, and open-minded and discriminating seekers can find empowerment and deep support in many religions if they are fortunate enough to have proper guidance and curiosity. The truth is that the dual perspective needs to be emphasized as the majority of people have no other perspective available to them and not enough time, energy, or interest to pursue these deep and subtle paths. We see this as much in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism as in Abrahamic religions. The masses simply don't dive deep into the esoteric. The mystics in every religion are those who can uncover and share these truths - the Kabbalists, the sufis, the Jesuits, the yogis, and sages for example. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Judeo-Christian traditions but arguably they have been more affected by politicization and subterfuge. I think this is also related to the differences in the Eastern and Western philosophical trends as well as cultural tendencies (materialism vs collectivism for example).

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind... There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself. The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence. Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices.

I think part of the reason is that the closer we get to non-conceptual practice the less confidence we have in the veracity of terms to define it. In the teachings with which I'm most familiar the simple terms give way to multiple terms attempting to point at it from different directions. Metaphors, similes and reference back to one's experience take the place of definitions. Rather than clear thinking being needed, I would offer that what is needed is the clarity that is independent of thinking. I appreciate you sharing that. It is a valuable and important teaching tool and support. When i used that expression, I was referring to my personal experience as a practitioner. As the sense of self that is very busy thinking, elaborating, coloring and commenting on my experience slowly releases and rests (getting smaller as blue eyed snake suggests), my experience of whatever is present in that moment, in the senses, in the body, and mind becomes more clear, more immediate, more naked and fresh. I'm trying not to define this so much in conceptual terms but rather staying with the experience of practice. Thanks for that, I was using that as a reference since we used it earlier in the thread. No model we could possibly offer can be established as real. What is real is the direct experience of our practice. All else is conceptual labeling and elaboration. There is a "realness" to that also but I don't want to get bogged down in that. I do think the model is useful to make the point that what is affected by such practices include the activities of mind, the interpretation and experiences of sense consciousness, the content and influence of store consciousness, even the "manas" or habitual and karmic tendency to identify with a self. Real changes occur in experience and behavior (hopefully we'll get to some discussion of that if we don't get too derailed). I get the point you are making here. As Westerners steeped in millennia of Judeo-Christian ontology and epistemology and the power of the materialistic view, there is a powerful authenticity and appeal to a completely different and empowering perspective informed by a more collective and less materialistic cultural and historic background. I don't see your comment as belittling or as Judeo-Christian-splaining but I can understand others' sensitivity on the subject. Hard to avoid completely in this format and what theory you offer is often quite well informed and beneficial for me. So thanks!

The only differences between dualism and nondualism that are interesting to me are the practice and applications. The conceptual stuff is way over my head, seriously. In practice there is a well-defined and clear distinction. Dualism acknowledges a subject and divides into subject and object, that object coincidentally also being the subject as well as anything external. I cultivate something or change myself in some fashion. Subject working on subject/object. Nondualism acknowledges a subject and asks it to rest as completely and consistently as possible. Subject and object get closer, we open to and embrace all experience in the freshness of the moment. Subject releasing, not interfering. Need I say it? Wu Wei And for all the time we cannot fully manage with that simplicity alone (most of the time for me lately, it varies) we take advantage of physical, mental and energetic practices. That karmic connection to body, speech, and mind will likely never be extinguished but changes do occur with practice, in all levels of consciousness including Manas. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53592-differences-between-dualism-and-non-dualism/?do=findComment&comment=980971 For me the holistic support found in the wisdom lineages, is a critical piece missing among the non-lineage nondualists like Foster and Harrison and more. The simple nondual insight, though powerful, isn’t always enough for everyone (anyone?) all the time, until Buddhahood… We need to work on the full program as dictated by circumstances (karma) at any given moment. I’d love to see more talk about practice and less about theory but will defer to @Bindi. I could start a new thread but really dig the vibe here! 🔥

Maybe we should combine this thread with the who believes video thread? 😆

Thank you George Carlin : • I think I am, therefore, I am … I think. • Isn’t making a smoking section in a restaurant like making a peeing section in a swimming pool? • I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, ‘Where’s the self-help section?’ She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. • What if there were no hypothetical questions? • Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac? • If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done? • When I ask how old your toddler is, I don’t need to hear ’27 months.’ ‘He’s 2’ will do just fine. He’s not a cheese. And I didn’t really care in the first place. • If the black box flight recorder is never damaged during a plane crash, why isn’t the whole airplane made out of that stuff? • Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. • Some people see things that are and ask, ‘Why?’ Some people dream of things that never were and ask, ‘Why not?’ Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that. • Most people work just hard enough not to get fired and get paid just enough money not to quit. • ‘Bipartisan’ usually means that a larger-than-usual deception is being carried out. • Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity. • Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it. • I have as much authority as the Pope. I just don’t have as many people who believe it. • One can never know for sure what a deserted area can look like. • When you step on the brakes, your life is in your foot’s hands. • Some people have no idea what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.

Given that debates surrounding non-duality date back 2-3 millennia, I suspect you're correct. Nothing wrong with that... I enjoy the topic far more than Trump talk and Current Events and feel resolution is equally likely here... I love that we've argued a very polarizing topic (how ironic is that, non-duality is polarizing?) for 19 pages without insults, ad hominem, or reports.

I think it can be, it can basically short-circuit any spiritual discussion. And I think it sometimes has the effect, intended or not, of invalidating others’ positions. I suspect this can come across as cold and arrogant. Not saying you are any of those things but I think non-dual speak can come across that way.

Fantastic Voyage!

Used to, yes. At least that’s my sense. I talk about it in context and the insight is always there so no doubt it influences my comments, but I don’t think I shortcut discussion much, at least that’s not my intention. I feel like I avoid discussion more than shortcut in general. I could be wrong… 😆

Definitely, I have a very close friend and confidante. We discuss deep matters often and I used to have a tendency to play the non-dual card. It would piss him off and he was very direct so I learned how irritating and unhelpful it can be through his feelings. I try to be sensitive to that.

Whether we personally connect with nonduality directly, conceptually, or not at all science is already embracing it in several fields. For example, in biology and ecology there is no way to separate an organism from its environment, there simply is no such thing in existence. Organism-environment is a non-dual continuity and yet we can speak of properties of each. Both ways of looking at the system have merit and validity. If we look at ourselves closely we can find no separation from our environment. We can move around and exist within a bag of skin which makes us feel separate but have never for an instant not been directly connected in a life or death fashion to everything around us. We are a specialization of our environment, a symptom as Alan Watts has said, we are its sensory apparatus and agency of “intentional” activity. In physics, a relatively recent theory of quantum mechanics, championed by Carlo Rovelli, called the relational theory, brings us to a non-dual foundation of reality. There are no discrete objects, all observations represent relationships and there is no boundary between observer and observed. Essentially for me this is a discovery of karma and dependent origination through the vehicle of quantum physics. I thoroughly enjoy reading this stuff, when I can follow it. Here are some things to check out if interested. General overview: https://www.science20.com/train_thought/blog/dualitynonduality_duality-75423 Biology, excellent series of articles, the first and last in particular: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10333975/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10333976/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10485609/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10885546/ Physics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_quantum_mechanics All the published articles I can find are too technical for me but Carlo Rovelli’s book Helgoland is a good layperson’s intro. https://seop.illc.uva.nl/entries/qm-relational/ https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9609002.pdf

and

And politics is different? At least we won’t blow each other up! 😁

Hopefully at least as long as the political threads…

I don’t feel troubled. I enjoy your challenges and the discussion it stimulates. It’s been a fun thread. The topic of non-duality is always a difficult one to discuss in a public forum. It’s a very tricky and subtle subject and it’s been actively disputed by many high level scholars and practitioners for millennia. You’re in good company. It’s been kept very secretive for most of that time in the Bön and Buddhist communities for this very reason. Believe me or not, there is something very special to it. If you are not drawn to it, best to follow what calls you as I have no doubt you will. Warning - the complimentary nature of Yin and Yang is non-dual at its very core so I expect you will bump into it again sooner or later. It can’t hurt to keep an open mind.

I practice a path that is unequivocally non-dual but I don't dismiss you or your path. If non-dual teachings don't resonate with you, best to honor that and move on. I would suggest that everyone's path is folly at some level until we see through it. And yet it is important to be true to your authentic self and what it needs to grow in the moment. I suspect there is some karmic connection between you and non-dual teachings, otherwise you would not be this engaged. Sometimes we can be very resistant to something we need, sometimes we don't need it but it draws us. FWIW, when I encounter something that doesn't make sense to me but seems to be catching my attention, I let it be. I stay open to the fact that it may be of benefit to others and the possibility that at some point it may click with me. There are things like that throughout the spiritual teachings for me, dual and non-dual alike.

Preach on: Several of us are pointing to ‘being with what is, as it is.’ Open to it fully through all senses, including thoughts and feelings. Do not engage or elaborate. Do not change it. Be with it and settle in. We can practice this with our own pain - mental, energetic, and physical, as well as others.’ Trust that when action is necessary, it will be there and be appropriate. If we are interested in non-duality, I believe this is the point. Being with everything that comes to us, as it is. Allowing it to enter, abide , and move through our experience. Noticing when we react and slowly beginning to identify more consistently with the spacious awareness rather than the endless, finite objects, including EVERYTHING written in this thread and forum, especially this. This is meditation that grows into conduct and fruit. Eventually we may get a sense that experience isn’t coming in, it is going out… there are practices that focus on this like sky and sun gazing and 7 weeks in a dark room. The instant we refer to Non-duality and all related matters, if we are not describing and referring to our personal experience with this ‘being with’ we are simply conceptualizing. It doesn’t matter if we are pro or anti-dual. Everything we can possibly say misses the mark, what we are referring to is un-imputable. The instant we turn our attention inward and begin to observe without interference (wu wei), we are already connecting to what we are trying unsuccessfully to conceptualize and in a far more meaningful way. When I worked at the Maryland Shock Trauma unit in the 80’s and 90’s we had a saying, words to live and work by… Just fucking do it ~ Attila Poka Preach off

@Apech I have not heard similar reports from anyone else and am not aware of any changes made recently. Have there been any software/hardware changes on your end?

This clears up a mystery! Why are there so few Daoist masters and so many stray dogs in China? Practicing wu wei, the Daoist masters starve to death and their dogs become homeless… 🥴

It was a joke loosely referring to a few self-proclaimed Daoist masters online, at least one of whom was a member here for a short time…. not intended to insult you in any way. Sorry if it came across that way! _/\_

I appreciate the quotes from Foster. I read his first book around when it was released. It helped validate some things for me but was lacking something. I can see now it was lacking the respect and appreciation for the challenges and expressions of dual experience which is the central part of life for all, regardless of special insights. It was lacking tools for working with things that special insight doesn’t dissolve. It’s nice to feel his authenticity and vulnerability in these recent quotes. The things he criticized in non-dualists were very much evidenced in his own early writing. .

The exception to this rule is anonymous strangers on the internet, no?