doc benway

I appreciate your enthusiasm and warmth. And I think we can always use an extra table, if only to put the occasional decision or discussion on pause…

I guess I'm missing something here, did @thelerner post info about this somewhere?

I'm glad to see the frank discussion here. Some of the people who were thrown out were clearly abusive and should not be allowed back. Others left in solidarity or in response to the extremity of sean's action and had no involvement in the abuse that led to it. Still others were made to feel unwelcome because of their political views... unfortunate but I guess unavoidable at the time. Unlikely they would have any desire to return. I welcomed sean's action at the time and appreciated his decisiveness, humor, and compassion. I also regret that causes and conditions have brought us to such an unstable and unpredictable political and social state of affairs. I have no interest in seeing an increase in political flame wars or bullying. I do not recommend we tolerate abuse or disrespect in the name of free speech. Those times are done here from what I can see. I agree with Nungali regarding freedom of speech. There are lots of places people can find to share their views, it doesn't have to be here. With freedom comes responsibility and accountability as well as sensitivity on behalf of those who are vulnerable. I don't advocate welcoming everyone back with open arms or actively trying to recruit anyone. On the other hand, I do feel that as a community of practitioners we could give some consideration to principles like inclusion, forgiveness, and compromise in select and appropriate circumstances if some people reach out. I suspect it will prove to be a moot point as I don't see many who left coming back... but I guess you never know. Sean has been largely distant but steadfast in maintaining this place during many ups and downs. This place could easily have gone the way OD appears to be headed on any number of occasions over the years if not for sean. I have complete confidence in Trunk, ilumairen, zerostao, and dwai in continuing to maintain a peaceful and respectful atmosphere. They will never be able to please everyone and it's mostly a miserable and thankless job. So THANK YOU @sean, @Trunk, @ilumairen, @zerostao, and @dwai!!! And cheers to all of you who still hang around and shoot the shit with me here... … oh and fuck trump

Why not? 😁 I very rarely practice formal meditation on a chair. Once in retreat, the gompa was so crowded everyone had to sit in chairs. My teacher talked a bit about seated meditation posture in a chair vs cushion. One of the things he suggested was crossing the feet at the ankles. He mentioned some energetic benefits, though he didn’t get into details, and enhanced stability. I tried both (feet crossed vs resting flat on the floor) over the course of the week and found ankles crossed to be more comfortable and stable for me. I feel it is in part related to the opening of the hips which promotes energetic circulation, contact at the ankles which promotes retention over grounding and dispersal, as well as shifting the body weight from the feet and thighs to the bottom, better supporting the spine axis. Just my personal experience and musings, feet flat on the floor counter-intuitively feels less supportive and stable for me. I was surprised at this. It also depends on the height of the chair and tilt and shape of the seat. I suggest experimenting with both and finding what works best.

There are a lot of variables to consider like - what you practice, how long you've been at it, age, physical condition, how stable is your mind, and so forth. My approach with beginners and intermediate students is that they should first learn how to sit in a proper posture. This is a posture that allows one to sit upright such that there is stability with minimal physical movement or exertion and the ability to be open, breath deeply and smoothly, and fully rest the body and mind for as long as possible. Proper posture is something that requires a process of personal exploration, discovery and mastery - sounds simple but can be elusive. I recommend you allow yourself to move as needed to minimize distraction associated with physical pain. This is in part to protect the physical body from injury but mostly because if you have not yet found a stable and sustainable posture you are unlikely to have reached a point where your meditation can embrace, accommodate, and transcend physical pain without being distracted. Movements should be minimized, infrequent, and not something to occupy the mind or inner voice during practice. Alternating periods of sitting with walking or standing meditation can be helpful if you have had some instruction in this. Over time the mind's ability to remain connected to the object of meditation, to remain undisturbed and fully rest will improve. As this occurs the body will naturally become less of a source of disturbance. I suggest you experiment with the physical sensations of discomfort during practice. How do you deal with it as it arises? Can you focus on the sensations as the object of meditation? Just rest your attention there, feeling what is present in the moment fully, stay with it for a time. I suggest exploring what happens internally as you do this - do thoughts come up, fears, memories, expectations, etc...? Does the pain stay in one place, does it move? Are you judgmental, impatient, or caring and loving towards this challenge and that aspect of you that is experiencing it? Take time and recognize this as part of the process of getting to know your mind and body and how they connect and interact more fully, this is meditation. Eventually you will find physical discomfort will come and go and will be less and less a source of distraction. There are those that are more militaristic in their approach, like the Goenka group for example. Posture must be immovable and rigid. All movement is strongly discouraged. I do think this approach can work for some but should only be considered if you are under direct, expert supervision. If you are working with a teacher, follow their guidance. If not, I suggest a more gentle, patient, and flexible approach with yourself. Sitting in a chair can be very effective. If that works for you that is great. There are some advantages if you are able to sit in a cross legged posture, provided the posture is stable and sustainable. It tends to offer more stability and some would offer that there are energetic advantages to things like, crossed legs, half lotus and lotus postures, not to mention tongue position and hand mudras. If sitting in a chair consider crossing the legs at the ankles.

@Eduardo Enjoy your new forum!

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and perspective.

@Cobie Welcome to your new PPD!

Some personal ramblings to be heavily salted, In Bön dzogchen and tantra practice, we also first clear channels and chakras energetically through breath, movement, sound, visualization, etc… depending on the path. This prepares the suitable vessel for receiving the blessings and empowerments, the Body of Light. And they often enter through the crown, heavenly nectar, divine wisdom, all the empowerments. But our actions can only reflect these Blessings if I is not dominating our experience of life and that is the practice of Wu Wei for me. When I is operating exclusively the dualist view is solely available. TaiJi The world of YinYang we live and its dynamic energy of tsal the 10,000 things. When I loses some of its monopoly of identification, the experience of self-originated wisdom is already there, nondual realization is Self-Clear that it has always ever been so and never farther than the centerless center of My Being, hence the apparent smugness of the non-dualistas, myself included. We often think less ego is operating than others might observe and hold to thoughts, ideas and feelings of the View rather than continuously resting in Unbounded Bliss. Both perspectives are equally valid throughout life and death in my View.

Also very Chinese, I’ve experienced it in martial and Daoist master-disciple-lineage relationships. It is the manner in which Bruce was trained and can be expected to influence his approach.

Hi Robin, One aspect of the spiritual path that I've encountered and continue to work with is the relationship with the teacher. At different points on our path that relationship changes and grows and we experience different things internally, related to that change. It is important to recognize this and bring it into the very path itself, it is an important part of our personal growth and development. Another factor is that a good teacher grooms the student to be an independent practitioner, we slowly attach more to the teachings and practice and less to the person. If you see tangible benefits from the practices and they feel like a good fit, probably worth continuing on the path you're on and face the demons associated with your unmet expectations and the imperfections of your human teacher. The teacher is also the practice, the view, and the lineage, not to mention the Way and Nature of things, however you frame that in your personal paradigm. If the practices are not giving you tangible benefits and does not feel like a good fit, time to move on and stop wasting precious energy and time, we only have so much opportunity in this short life. Peace and blessings on your journey.

The dualities in my psyche are anything but hidden! Not that I’ve exposed and integrated or liberated all karmic traces in my life experience by any means rather they are the primary focus and a seemingly endless source of fuel in my own practice. I’ve been fortunate to have help to identify the signs and avoid bypassing. I would say we need to anticipate and welcome some non-dual perspective here, particularly when discussing explicitly non-dual scripture. Conversely, I welcome the grounding and reality testing your post provides. Public discussions of non-dual experience are fraught with dangers for both “sides.” No doubt this is one explanation for the extreme secrecy and caution historically surrounding such teachings in certain traditions and communities More synchronicity, I recently shared something very similar in a PM. I receive no greater gift from this community than the opportunity to see myself a little more clearly and comprehensively through the mirror of reactivity to my posts. And I learn far more from negative response than positive… I welcome and value whatever you are moved to share here. I find great value and compassion in your presence and contributions.

My reaction is one of gratitude and humility. Beautifully said, timely, and important. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

And older yet, he will leave the practice behind and slurp it up once again!

In the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Pastafarian masters express the Bliss of Non-Dual Realization in terms of the inseparability of Pasta and Sauce…

I’ll offer an unorthodox secondary source, Osho’s When the Shoe Fits was a very accessible intro to Zhuang-zi for me. Primary texts in the Daoist canon can be elusive for the Western student as they are deeply steeped in a cultural and linguistic richness that can be foreign and easily misinterpreted. I would say this is very true in the Zhuang-zi, less prominent perhaps in the Lao-zi. Read them very slowly and compare translations and commentaries. There are great resources here for several important scriptures here - https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/179-daoist-discussion/ I am another one of those who feels that an appreciation of the true meaning of Daoism best comes through being able to link the concepts to your life experience. Consequently it is very valuable to invest in expert guidance in an authentic Daoist discipline, whether it be meditation, martial art, qigong, yijing, etc…

Hmm, that’s not my experience of your posts on the topic but I’m pleased that I simply misunderstand you. 🙏🏼 नमस्ते

My opinion is worth less than a politician’s oath or a misplaced NFT… Please don’t take it seriously. What I find interesting is that you quote and presumably value non-dual scripture and yet insist on framing it in dualistic perspective… The Upanishads tell us nothing if not of the pervasive and all-inclusive nature of Self and yet Buddhist and Daoist views and their followers are somehow excluded in your interpretation. To understand the Upanishads requires coming closer to non-dual realization. Non-dual realization involves recognition that all distinctions are illusory and the appreciation of a common thread that runs through all experience and all spiritual paradigms. I’m curious how you reconcile the non-dual teaching of the Upanishads with a refusal to acknowledge the common ground among non-dual teachings from disparate and even closely related traditions.

Absolutely! When we can let go of attachment to labels and our concepts and expectations with which they are entangled there is an opportunity to have a genuine glimpse of the what the Buddha and the Upanishads are pointing us toward. When we assign names and concepts and all of the baggage that comes with them, we are lost. There is nothing to go against when resting in the open embrace of the ground of being, nothing is excluded or preferred. Our beliefs do a very good job of obscuring our ability to realize the fullness of what the Upanishads point to. Beliefs of any kind lead us away from the fundamental truth of the Katha Upanishad. The Self cannot be known through studyOf the scriptures, nor through the intellect,Nor through hearing learned discourses. The completeness of Self-realization knows no distinctions - fine, transcendental, rational, irrational, or otherwise. To believe otherwise is to miss the forest for the trees.

No one here is saying that Buddhists, Hindus, Daoists, their methods, or associated results are the same from what I've read. They are pointing to something more subtle, more pure and pervasive. The point being made has nothing to do with imagination, thought, method, or result, and yet all of these things are subsumed within what is being described. The excerpt from the Katha Upanishad in the OP espouses the non-dual nature of Self. If Self is of a non-dual nature, can there be more than one Self? If Self encompasses all by its very nature, is it separate from Daoists, Buddhists, Hindus and their various rituals, methods, and realizations? Some here are speaking from a perspective of genuine non-dual realization, the perspective to which the OP is directing the reader. When one has a taste of this perspective, that flavor can be discerned in all of the teachings of all of the wisdom traditions. You need to have some familiarity with the taste of a green mango to recognize it in a soup, a stew, or a cake. Indeed deep thinking can no more approach what the verses in the OP are pointing to than shallow, although one could perhaps say that if thinking is shallow enough, meaning absent, there may be a glimpse... 23. The Self cannot be known through studyOf the scriptures, nor through the intellect,Nor through hearing learned discourses.The Self can be attained only by thoseWhom the Self chooses. Verily unto themDoes the Self reveal himself. PS - I love the synchronicity of dwai and I posting the same message at the same time...

I feel like it would be nice to have a thread where all the MoPai derailings can go to die, or live forever as the case may be.

Looking forward to it. There is also other material - Samten Karmay’s The Arrow and the Spindle Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s wonderful 3 volume series The Light of Kailash: A History of Zhang Zhung and Tibet. Bø and Bön is the most closely related study to what I think you are after, however.

For me this line of discussion is a very important one. How can we trust words written hundreds or thousands of years ago? How to know who actually wrote them and how accurately they've been documented and passed along; especially when they've been translated from foreign languages, perhaps through multiple iterations? It doesn't matter if it is Jesus, Buddha, Moses, or Laozi. How to even know for certain that the individual ever existed? For me this is the importance of transmission. When you come into direct, personal contact with a lineage representative and feel their love, observe their behavior, and recognize the fruition of the tradition in their body, speech, and mind, then you know. You see and feel the teaching. You practice and experience it yourself. Then you realize the meaning in the words and know the truth they represent. At this level the truth that is the core of all of the different wisdom traditions shines and is undeniable.

We also have a sub forum dedicated to this wonderful teaching here for anyone interested: https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/256-neiye/

Another book you may want to check out - A Step Away From Paradise by Thomas Shor. A story of a 20th century terton and his search for a beyul.