doc benway

This is fun! I can't remember the last time I was this engaged in a thread... Thanks all!

I'm trying to find parallels between Bindi's description of the agency of a higher self and my own practice and perspective. Higher will for me refers to spontaneous expression of enlightened qualities which I liken to wu wei. I don't anthropomorphize or impute the source personally but recognize that some traditions do.

I don't think it's all that rare, I know far more than one or two people who are quite accomplished at it, but perhaps it isn't emphasized enough by some teachers and practitioners. Tantric, dzogchen, and Daoist practices all provide methods to cultivate this. Jesuits, Kabbalists, and Sufis too... It is the ultimate core of the Mahayana teachings, it is wu wei. In fact, I think it happens all the time though perhaps not perfect and continuous in many. Yes, it is hard to establish because it has to be found from the inside as it were... It's the source of healing and creativity. "The authentic path" I like that and agree from my perspective. Then again everyone has a unique authentic path.

Non-duality can have the effect of causing subject to object. There's no need to dissent, the Two Truths document Proves both perspectives correct! I recently came across this brief article from Ken McLeod in Tricycle, a Buddhist magazine. I think it is worth a few minutes of time... Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, “The flag is moving.” The other replied, “The wind is moving.” Overhearing this exchange, Hui-neng said, “Neither flag nor wind is moving; mind is moving.” (Case 29, The Gateless Gate) Hui-neng is wrong here. Imagine you are looking at a tree on a windy day. You feel the gusts against your cheeks. You see the leaves shaking and flashing as they twist and turn. You see the branches swaying back and forth. You hear the leaves rustling and the tree creaking. And you are so clear and open that there is no movement, not inside, not outside, not anywhere. Nothing moves. Now imagine that you could experience your thoughts and feelings the same way. They come and they go, but for you there is no movement, none at all. It doesn’t matter what arises—love, anger, need, pride, grief, joy—you experience it, you experience it all, you know it, and yet nothing moves, nothing whatsoever. It is possible to experience life this way, and when you do, words are utterly useless. This way of experiencing is indivisibly immediate, unfathomably profound, unthinkably simple, and unimaginably ennobling. It must be true! And thus is born the notion of ultimate truth. Stay with that experience for a few moments. Inside you are as quiet as a pond that lies in the center of a deep forest, a pond that, protected by the trees around it, has been undisturbed by even the slightest breeze for a thousand years. Feel the stillness, the infinitely deep stillness, within you. Because of that stillness, you hear everything. You hear the cry of a baby when it first comes into the world. You hear a young man’s gasp of disbelief and despair when his girlfriend breaks things off. You hear the sobs of fear of a woman stricken by breast cancer. And you hear the rasping breath of those whose time in the world has come to an end. You hear the sufferings and struggles of those brought low by misfortune, bad luck, or their own folly. You hear the cries of pain and hurt of those who are oppressed, exploited, or abused. You hear the pain in the voices of those who have to oppress, exploit, or abuse others. You hear the suffering of the world. You see and hear others struggle—locked in beliefs, flooded by emotions, or burned to ashes by their worries, their concerns, their obsessions. And it’s all so unnecessary. They don’t know that there is another way. You see that and know that. It must be true! And thus is born the notion of relative truth. Profound, transformative, and liberating experiences are frequently recast as higher or deeper truths. As human beings, we struggle with life, and when we find a way of experiencing life that ends all struggle and suffering, we grasp, we hold, we cling. Nothing is more important. We know that something else is possible. We are different because of it. At least we feel different, so it must be true. We want others to know it, too. But how do you tell them? You put your experience into words, whatever words you can. You come up with ways to explain why this is possible, how it comes about, why it is so important. But these words, these explanations, are, in the end, as relevant as proofs of the existence of God. You can debate and argue all you want—and people have done so for centuries—but these explanations, these systematic conceptualizations, are beside the point. If they don’t help to bring out something of that experience in others, they are at best a waste of time and, at worst a rope with which people tie themselves into knots. There is no ultimate truth. There is no relative truth. These are just notions, ideas. You have not touched cosmic consciousness, the one true reality, the ultimate, the infinite, the totality pure. Those words don’t refer to anything. They are poetry, but people forget that. You’ve experienced something, something profound, and it has changed you. Great. But for goodness’ sake, don’t make a religion out of it. Just live it.

… forcing me to subject Damn you Apech, I was this close!

It’s simply not accessible, until it is… Self-secret, That’s why the Tibetans finally decided to teach it publicly. And that’s not a bad thing, read UG Krishnamurti. We each have to follow our path, no other path will do. I’m reading a book, very slowly, that I think would be a wonderful guide and support for anyone interested and attracted to Bön non-dual teachings: Living Wisdom, a collection of teachings on dzogchen by Lungtok Tenpai Nyima.

How can we not after a lifetime of being a subject? Everything we can name must be an object, it is inherent in language which is the substrate of thought. I’ve come to believe this is an important reason why emptiness is so heavily emphasized in Buddhism.

Sounds like a site that would require paid membership and offer moderators compensation for their sifting and moderation time.

What Would a Taoist World Look Like? The juxtaposition of the title and OP point to a valuable area of contemplation and personal exploration in Daoism, for me. It gets to the question of what exactly is in accord with the Way and it is not? Has anything or anyone ever been a hair's breadth separated from the Way? Do the classics describe the Way things are or the Way things should be? What separates those two concepts? We seem to think there is a particular Way to be that is more Daoist and others that are less so. There is an inner judgement that suggests we need to be different than what we already always are... I've heard some imply that the activity of animals and nature in general follow the Way but not that of people, what would that be? I'm no expert and no scholar, and I have no definitive answers, but I find these sort of questions interesting and stimulating.

All good questions and I appreciate your discussion of "spirit." My comment was simply a response to liminal luke's question about whether non-dual realization is the culmination of spiritual development. Based on personal experience, the experiences of others, and teachings from non-dual traditions, there does not seem to be a direct correlation between any particular spiritual path or level of personal development with non-dual realization. On the other hand, the theme of non-duality in various forms seems to be at the heart of many spiritual traditions, East and West, regardless of how they are categorized.

The rainbow body is not something that is built. It represents the dissolution of all karmic traces including the physical body which resolves into the 5 elemental lights. It is one expression of complete enlightenment, seen in the dzogchen teachings of Bön and Buddhism. It is said to predate Buddhism in Tibet.

I guess that depends on what is meant by spirit

Wonderfully similar to my teacher’s core meditation instructions for connecting with the mind’s essence - Rest in the stillness of the body Rest in the silence of speech Rest in the spaciousness of mind Leave everything just as it is

For sure. Non-duality as a topic of discussion and analysis is very confusing. It is inherently irrational and paradoxical. Methods of guiding practitioners towards a deeper understanding take forms that reflect this such as the koans of Chan and Zen, the pith instructions of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, even energy and body focused practices of Tantra and Daoism. All leading us away from spending time and energy on intellectual understanding towards a more visceral connection to what is. The teachings with which I’m most familiar rarely try to explain because that is not an effective approach. Instead the focus is on metaphor, example, and personal practice.

Nice to see you Carson and thanks for sharing some of your path and experiences. Welcome back! 🙏🏼

My teacher likes to frame it as what we are able to experience is the release of obstacles. We live with one or more particular obstacles, limitations of perspective, our entire lives and they are suddenly gone, leading to an abrupt and potentially dramatic shift in experience. This is very personal and explains why people describe their experiences as they do.

In a sense non-dual realization has nothing to do with spiritual development, which is an activity of mind. Non-dual realization is a shift, from not-knowing to knowing; a lifetime of seeing things from a trusted and unquestioned perspective and then having that perspective exploded.That shift is an experience, described in many ways (thunder bolt, God experience, empty, Oneness, Self, awakened, unbounded, immortal, unborn, undying, unconditional love, even catastrophe…). I don’t think it correlates with any particular part of the path. It seems to occur randomly. I have a friend who woke up at age 8. Spiritual practice may be able to help it to happen but often it happens early on the path and the practice can help it to mature and stabilize, and express itself as service to others, and sometimes it never happens although I’m guessing it happens at death of we’re aware enough. It can also fade into the background, covered up by habits and foolishness, but I don’t think it’s ever gone completely. From the non-dual perspective there is no need of any path; beginning and end have no real meaning. Non-duality can only ever refer to NOW. Any words we can throw at it, whatever we think it is or say it is are wrong, always, it is unimputable.

I think this would be a good option. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/288210/the-tibetan-book-of-the-dead-by-gyurme-dorje/

How many non-dualists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Not two! 🥁

You’re so awake… I heard you got arrested for resisting a rest! 🤓

I’m so empty… ….I tried to get a non-dual supremacy tattoo but couldn’t, nothing for the ink to stain! 💪🏼 And I know who BOTH my parents are… 😝

@Vajra Fist Tap on your name in the top right corner and the drop down list should include "Ignored users." Tap on the link and add as many members as you'd like to the list. Voila!

This feels very dzogchen self-originated and primordially pure When you find that self I would love to hear more detail! Not at all diametrically opposed. I have no interest in getting rid of my self (can someone can help me understand precisely what that is ffs?) and I couldn’t if I wanted to… that’s just another thought. I am a wonderful and necessary part of me and yet there is far more to me than anything I could ever define or verbalize and this broader perspective simply puts me in my proper place. I resonate with that last part, it seems very much an expression of emptiness…. or meditation. Those states don’t necessarily disappear but I can be free. This part just takes, for me, some precise instruction and devoted practice. That was what I was describing in what you quoted from me earlier… full circle!

Even the distinction between life and death becomes a bit fuzzy when trying to speak of non-duality and Buddha-nature. The body of light, the liberation of all traces in the dzogchen traditions, is generally said to occur at death but there are some stories of it occurring in life.