doc benway

I have learned that, for me, the value in participating in a forum like this isn’t so much related to the information exchange. It is more the camaraderie and the opportunity to look at myself more closely. In watching what I post and when, how I respond to others and how they respond to me, I can see myself a bit more clearly, in the mirror of others and in having the ability to see my own activity here months and years later. It’s fascinating. Helping others is wonderful and sacred, and quite delicate and challenging even under the best of circumstances. On an anonymous message board those circumstances are far from ideal. I have found it helpful to exercise a bit of caution whenever the “helper” identity surfaces. Sometimes I think I can help more by simply observing.

Thanks Jose and @liminal_luke It looks great!

My sincere condolences Apech... _/\_/\_/\_ ---------- Exorcism sounds about right, let's do it!

Daaang!

I'm simply enjoying the connection with you all here, nothing much to say. I do appreciate this space. Somehow it is a bit of a refuge for me. I value the spiritual discussion, the stories, the poetry, but somehow it is not about the information so much. It is more about the shared experience.

"Mind is unborn. It is as boundless as the sky. Clouds and wind, light and darkness, these appear spontaneously in the sky but don't block space. So when you concentrate and remain in the natural state, this nature self-appears spontaneously. There is neither subject nor object. There is no need to practice meditation in a special way or focus on anything. This nature is called Bön-Nature. There is no way to search for it or find it. No way to focus on it, so simply leave it as it is." ~ LHABÓN YONGSU DAGPA ~ Photo: Sunset over Indian Ocean from the shores of Bali / 2019

"Tantric meditational deities should not be confused with what different mythologies and religions might mean when they speak of gods and goddesses. Here, the deity we choose to identify with represents the essential qualities of the fully awakened experience latent within us." "The same desirous energy that ordinarily propels us from one unsatisfactory situation is transmuted, through the alchemy of tantra, into a transcendental experience of bliss and wisdom.” ~ Lama Thubten Yeshe

Yes, ilumairen's PPD is a friendly and comfy place to hang out. Glad the flock is back where it belongs!

Also likely that Shakyamuni had a headful of luxurious hair at some point in his life…

A great treasure of a human being, so influential and compassionate. My interest in meditation and Buddhism was piqued and fostered by his books.

They’re empty any way you slice it… Regarding the headache… They are huge volumes of teachings on the space aspect/metaphor in Bön and Buddhism, the so called longde series of teachings. So many, many words pointing to a non-conceptual, experiential meaning. Definitely better to practice than ponder too much but if the metaphor clicks with something inside, it did with me, then it can be a support, or a clue. Lots of metaphors, pith instructions, contained in another collection - the menngagde series.

Nobody said it would be easy…

Emptiness to a contemporary quantum physicist…

@ralis I’d say I can taste some of what you are describing but I don’t know that we can ever know another’s experience for sure or share an experience. I would rather say all experience is necessarily unique… though you can feel it when there is a shared perspective somehow…

The first point related to Rinpoche's comment is that what we perceive is an illusion because the manner in which we perceive it only tells part of the story. Our perception is incomplete, hence inaccurate. The second point is that each of us participate, at the very least, in the creation of our reality. Consequently we each experience a different reality over the course of our lives. There are similarities but also distinct differences, not only among people, but among all sentient beings.

The problem with the concept of eternal, when not relating to space due to its unique characteristics, is that it creates a number of logical fallacies. I'm not well versed or studied enough to discuss and debate them confidently but am aware of the the limitations associated with that postulate. It's been debated ad nauseum for millenia and will likely continue to be long after we're gone. The good news for me is that whether we postulate that the Self is empty or eternal is of very little real consequence, it's simply an idea, sort of similar to postulating whether or not a "God" created the Big Bang. The existence of a creator God or the Eternal nature of the Self are not needed and cannot be proven or disproven. And yet one can sit in meditation, experience that Self directly, and grow spiritually...

You are probably right in many cases. On the other hand, one valuable lesson I've learned is that it's best not to make assumptions about what people can and cannot understand. While dzogchen teachings were once highly secret, they are now made easily accessible. In the hopes of not losing the knowledge, the current mindset among many teachers is more one of putting the teachings out there for the public with the hope that they will hit fertile ground here and there. I know for a fact there are more than a few folks that frequent the forum who have had deep experiences of emptiness / non-duality, with or without exposure to dzogchen teachings. Having that perspective makes the words and concepts easy to appreciate. Perhaps for others, a phrase or description could simply click, taking them to the next level. I see that happen from time to time. It's also possible that such information can be confusing but that's no different from Hindu teachings or the DDJ. For these reasons, I'm relatively comfortable bringing up these ideas here. (I don't direct this next part necessarily at you, ralis, but rather anyone interested in or confused by my analogy.) In fact, I would encourage anyone interested in the topic to really give some attention to the concept of space and how that relates to the view in any of the wisdom traditions. Space is unique in that it cannot be grasped or limited, it cannot be bounded or measure, it is indestructible yet is completely empty of any inherent substance, it has no edge or corner, no size, and no center. And yet one can say the center is anywhere and everywhere. It is no-thing and yet it is whole, one can even use the word "one." The subject is treated elegantly in the book Time, Space, and Knowledge by Tarthang Tulku. It is not referring to outer space but rather the concept of space in the sense of absence or openness that allows something to occupy it. It's also a hot topic in astrophysics where those very characteristics come into play when thinking about things like the big bang. One cannot say that the big bang occurred in any one particular place or position even though it is considered to have started in a single point. Some even suggest it occurred everywhere simultaneously. It's an interesting think to ponder. Once we get a feel for space, the other characteristic of emptiness that is critically important is clarity. Emptiness has little meaning without awareness of that emptiness, which is clarity. The base of all, one may say Dao, is both empty and clear. Neither characteristic exists without the other. It is the clarity that prevents us from falling into nihilism. And although it is empty, it has the potential for anything and everything to manifest. That is the spontaneous energy that presents to us 'as illusion' that nevertheless cannot be said to be "unreal." The dzogchen view is neither emptiness nor clarity. It is also not both. It is the direct experience of our own mind when it is not occupied by thought, emotion, or attention to sensory perception. It is also the experience of that mind fully occupied, provided we are able to remain undistracted by that content. It is experiential rather than conceptual or theoretical. With a little bit of practice, the actual meaning of emptiness and clarity arise spontaneously. Anyone can experience this with relative ease in brief glimpses, in fact most already have. The key is to recognize it for what it is and to gain stability and confidence in that recognition so that it becomes a valuable part of our lives.

Equally compatible with the dzogchen view. The critical point is realization of the base, which has the nature of space and clarity. ‘Standing alone’ refers to the unbounded and pervasive aspect and ‘without change’ is a characteristic of space, or emptiness.

I’ve received quite a number of dzogchen teachings and never once was perceived reality described as unreal. I think that’s a bit of a mis-characterization.

Thank you for that Yueya. I resonate with several points you make, particularly regarding the importance of knowing our limitations and recognizing the unintentional harm we can cause as healers

flatulence

Makes sense to me. Thanks for sharing that info. I'll share some ideas about the changes you're noticing, I enjoy sharing my opinions! First I'll say that I don't have a simple and direct answer for why your cup feels a bit warm or the table soft and warm. It would be easy to say you are feeling qi or feeling energy. I generally avoid such explanations because they are too ambiguous for my taste and don't really tell you anything. This type of explanation locks us into a limited paradigm, IMO. They're just labels and most people would not agree on a precise definition of such terms. My way of looking at what is happening is first and foremost that you are becoming more sensitive and more aware. With meditation and qigong practice, we become more quiet inside. Rather than being so lost in the inner dialogue and thought stream, we become more aware of the thought process and the prominence of that inner narrator. We become more aware of the body and how it feels, both internally and in relation to the external world. We can pick up subtle things in sensation and perception, things about our thoughts and moods and those of others, characteristics of our environment that may have been overlooked before. I recall my first meditation retreat, a week in silence. Simple things were dramatically different simply because I was more alert and more aware. The simple act of eating a salad became a symphony of textures, tastes, and sounds! In addition to being more sensitive and perceptive, it is important to be aware that we participate in generating the experience of our lives. We add the meaning and color the experience. Your reality and mine are different. This isn't simply a gratuitous assertion, it's consistent with Daoism, Buddhism, and the most accurate of scientific paradigms, quantum mechanics. So what you feel when you touch the cup is determined in part by the structure of the cup, in part by your individual sensory apparatus (are your fingertips sensitive, calloused, scarred, numb?), in part by your conditioning (that particular cup may have meaning for you, cups in general may hold significance, the act of drinking, a history of alcoholism or caffeine dependence, .. all of that has an effect), and finally, by your world view (some may hold a paradigm related to qi, energy, spirits, deities, emptiness, etc...). This was why I asked what you thought of what was happening. Your frame of reference and context will strongly influence your interpretation of what your are experiencing. So I apologize for being so long-winded and oblique but these are some things that came up for me in response to your questions. My approach when I begin to feel new things in response to my ongoing spiritual practices is to simply be open and experience it. I avoid the temptation to label too quickly. Once we give an experience a label or an explanation we limit ourselves to that paradigm and it can be an obstacle to progress. When I started practicing qigong and Daoist meditation, my sifu admonished us to minimize discussing our experiences with each other to avoid creating expectations that would influence our meditative experience. Staying open and connected to the experience allows us to keep questioning, remaining open to something new rather than categorizing and limiting ourselves to one particular interpretation. There is a cool book whose title and content capture this approach by Steven Harrison called The Question to Life's Answers. The idea being that, particularly in spiritual matters, answers are less valuable than open questions. Warm regards and welcome to the show!

shroomin'

Hi Felecula, Welcome to DaoBums! What type of meditation and qigong do you practice and how long have you been practicing? Would you be willing to share any thoughts or feelings you have regarding what is happening to you? The world of our experience is largely determined, or influenced, by our perspective. That perspective is determined by our conditioning, our life experience, and, if we are diligent and successful, our spiritual practices. Consequently, to discuss what you are experiencing needs context, otherwise any answers you receive will be valid for those offering them but may not be relevant or meaningful for you. (this is simply my perspective, of course)

Do not cling to the external face of the physical guru; Your own mind is the true face of the greatest guru. Do not admire superstitious magical powers; Real change in the mind is the greatest magical power. Do not rely on receiving blessings; Continual mindfulness of the true nature is the greatest blessing. Drugpa Kagyü Togden Amtrin