doc benway

That’s cool, I’m not suggesting you should. My long diatribe was not about you in particular, sorry if it felt that way. Nor was the quote. More a general comment for anyone here struggling with challenging concepts, myself especially... I often find contradictions in the world, in spiritual teachings, and in myself. O’Donohue’s words showed me they can be opportunities for discovery rather than just nonsensical. I like to share that.

Watching the South Park pandemic special. Some twisted stuff but funny as hell.

Doubly ironic because the quote is about contradictions, not choosing a method, and made by a guy who started as a priest, then embraced Celtic spirituality. 😆 I do love his poetry and teachings though.

As is your privilege, nothing wrong with that. Acceptance is just a word. Words used in spiritual contexts can’t always be reduced to dictionary definitions. Especially as we are discussing spiritual concepts in a language foreign to their origins. It is necessary that we use words as substitutes and approximations to the original, whether that be “acceptance,” “compassion,” “equanimity,” etc... I find this is one reason why studying with others and with a teacher can be so supportive. Like UG Krishnamurti’s words discussed earlier, the actions and behavior of a sage are easily and often misinterpreted by those who do not share her view of the world and of others. This is at least one reason why there are seeming contradictions in the great spiritual teachings of many traditions. When encountering something that we don’t understand, don’t accept, or don’t resonate with, we have two options. The first, as you point to above, is to simply reject and go in a different direction. Nothing wrong with that other than the possibility that we may be “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” An alternative is to remain open to the possibility that the teaching we are not receiving favorably still has more to teach us. For whatever reason we are currently not prepared or karmically connected to receive it yet. This is the basis of teachings that are referred to as “self secret.” Over time, with additional study or practice, it may reveal deeper meaning for us. Again this is where a teacher or group of practitioners can be so helpful. In fact, to some degree it’s why we meet here together at DaoBums IMO. We can’t expect to understand everything we come across in these esoteric teachings that have been translated into foreign tongues and cultures. It can take years, even decades, or maybe never. My own teacher freely admits there are elements in the Bön teachings that don’t make sense to him. He often makes this point when people struggle with understanding of challenging points. And this very point about acceptance and the great perfection of all things is a very common sticking point. Rather than reject those challenging elements, or the tradition as a whole, he simply suggests we stay open to the feeling of not getting it or not agreeing with it knowing that may change as our experience and understanding deepen. I find this an extremely valuable tool that has served me both in spiritual and martial practices, not to mention other areas - sciences, music, etc... A good example for me is playing the guitar. There are techniques or pieces that seem impossible. I can simply give up and work on something else or I can recognize I’m not quite ready to tackle it yet and come back to it from time to time with a flexible perspective and open attitude. In doing so I’ve come to play pieces I never thought possible. Regarding contradictions, I often share this beautiful quote from a masterful Celtic poet and spiritual teacher - “And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." ---- John O'Donohue ... steps down from the soapbox...

It’s critical because it relates to the accuracy of our perception. Maybe the one being bashed was the abuser... We can only act appropriately and effectively if we see clearly. We are often clouded by misperception created by dysfunctional patterns or emotional distortion. When we act on this basis, we are stumbling in the dark causing more distortion. Not at all. There is compassion born from emotion or sentimentality, and there is compassion born from wisdom. They are not the same thing. The sage is fully connected and engaged. The basis of the straw dog metaphor is equanimity, not disconnection or aloofness.

I find a lot of similarity between this idea of "acceptance" with Chapter 5 of the DDJ, the idea of heaven and earth and the sage treating all things and people as straw dogs. Dao does not judge, prefer, select, or exclude but simply allows all to be expressed. It includes all things large and small, both beautiful and horrific. "Acceptance" is simply observing and relating to reality as it is, not necessarily approving or even tolerating.

Slug by Nagasawa Rosetsu (長沢芦雪, Japanese painter of the Maruyama School, 1754–1799) , 18th-century (Edo period)

PS - re UG’s discussion of his calamity, what he says is true regarding no enlightenment, no one to be enlightened, no one can help you, etc... The catch is that it is ONLY true if you have that direct, personal experience of non-duality. In dzogchen terms we say it is true from the side of the absolute - the enlightened mind, the Nature of Mind. It is NOT true or helpful from the side of the individual who has not yet had an awakening experience. What I mean is that it is not true for the individual because they have no frame of reference for what it really means. Without that frame of reference, it is predictably misunderstood and misleading, even harmful. So if words like UG’s are supportive of further spiritual growth, they are wonderful. If they reinforce anger, frustration, negativity, or abandoning the possibility of personal growth, they are worse than worthless. As always, just my $.02.

I would never ask you to share personal stuff but if you think it would help you, or others, to share I’m certainly willing to listen without judgment. Some people tend to share more of themselves here and seem to benefit from that. Others tend to be a bit more guarded and private. Like with anything else, it’s about what works for us personally. I appreciate having this conversation, it’s important.

You been here a while, aintcha?! This last part is beautiful. You heard right.

I think it is good and important to be true to how you feel. Your apparent frustration and anger are valid and appropriate, in my opinion. Hearing your thoughts and feelings on the topic really made me think just how many people been marginalized and abused by the patriarchal institutions that have grown up around spiritual and religious traditions. There is one important error in what you attribute to UG here, IMO. Each of us needs to be true to ourselves, not try to project our ideas, experiences, and values on others. For anyone, UG included, to say that "all religion and religious practice are empty forms that take you further away from truth and liberation rather than closer to it" is simply evidence of their own arrogance and lack of understanding. In spiritual practice we can only know what works or does not work for ourselves and even that is not a stagnant thing, it can change over time. To project our own lack of connection to spiritual traditions onto others does both a disservice. Many people have benefited greatly from spiritual practice, teachers, and traditions. Many, of course, have not. Rather than "believe" the words of others, even those who disparage spiritual traditions, I've taken the approach of experimenting with them myself. It is not so much the traditions, the rituals, or even the teachers that are most important. What counts is the effects of the practice on our own lives. Belief for me is mainly illusion, direct personal experience and results is far more valuable. I have many friends who are actively engaged and have benefited deeply from spiritual practices that have plenty of cause to despise them, whether they be female, trans, gay, bi,... whatever. Yes there has been far too much harm done by religions and their followers. Nevertheless, there has also been a lot of benefit for a lot of people. I wish you the best on your path and appreciate you starting this discussion and sharing your feelings.

I appreciate your reply and I continue to disagree with the basis of your argument. Shunyata is not based on infinite regression, dependent origination, or cause and effect. That is a wrong view, a mental exercise. Perhaps one’s concept of shunyata is based on such things. Shunyata itself is not based on anything, that is the point of emptiness. Another wrong view is that the base is “just shunyata.” Emptiness is simply one characteristic of the base. The others are its clarity and limitless and energetic potential. Malcolm is knowledgeable and articulate and, I suspect, a good teacher but it is very easy for our intellect to misunderstand and lead us astray. But what can we trust if not that very intellect? That’s something we need to find out for ourselves. On the sutric path, intellect is the primary tool. On the tantric and dzogchen paths it is not so useful. Shunyata points to the “baseless” quality of the base. It is primordial, meaning uncreated. It is unimputable and clear. It cannot be grasped and therefore can serve as the basis of all manifestation but, again, these are simply words and ideas. Whether or not you can accept it through logic, it can be directly experienced through practice. At the end of the day what is important is that you find something that supports your understanding and growth. What supports me may be very different and these things can change over time. I trust that if you remain true to yourself, you’ll find what you need.

Very few have mastered all things Daoist. Writing books and mastery are often two different things. My taiji master used to be very critical of people who wrote a lot of books or made a lot of films. He would say, how can they possibly have enough time to train?! 😆 I know little about Mitchell. I know nothing about his Yijing studies and understanding. His push hands is pretty good, or at least was some years ago. Divine, as a verb comes from the old French word “deviner” which means to predict. It can also mean to uncover as in dowsing for water using a divining rod. In Yijing context I take it to mean something along the lines of discover, predict, or to see more clearly and would hold a feeling of “please help me to discover...” Take that with a grain of salt as I know very little about Yijing. Good luck

I suspect Taomeow has more understanding and experience with Yijing than most, if not all, members here. Not sure what Mitchell’s Yijing credentials are, so no comment there. You could always try to communicate with him and see if he would help you personally. If Taomeow made a suggestion to me on how to specifically phrase questions to the Yijing, I would do precisely that and then reach out to her directly with the result and see if she were willing to discuss further. Just my $.02

@sagebrush Posting media is not my strong suit but I'll try to help. There are limitations both to individual file size and to aggregate file size for your account. I checked your account and you are nowhere near the limit. You may need to resize your image or make sure you are using a file type that is supported. You can upload files or link to files hosted elsewhere. Here is a link to a recent discussion on the topic with some useful info.

I wouldn’t say it’s weird. Personal will doesn’t necessarily negate complete determinism. I guess one could say the skill is important to practitioners.

Karma can be both a teacher and punisher, a bit like gravity... It’s all in how we look at it.

@sagebrush Check to make sure the “Tent” is not collapsed, Look for a gray arrow opposite “Tent” at the far right of the screen. Tag me if you need help.

Oregon taking the Portuguese approach. 🙏🏽

I love how Luke puts it - opportunity for spiritual friendship. Seems like it's a choice between a small, relatively quite group of polite, considered, quality seekers or a lively and offensive array of political extremists, energy hoarders, and self-proclaimed masters of this, that, or the other. Is there no middle ground? I guess we need to decide what we want to be and be it, unapologetically.

I don’t look at stats but activity is clearly down. Sean’s intervention slashed active membership by perhaps half. Does that sound right? Another handful were ejected by Trunk. Yet another when mods returned and began enforcing rules. We’ve a quite small active group here now. I guess practitioners don’t like it here when asked to be polite. I find that interesting. I think they need a place to blow off steam, like the pit.

One thing I have come to accept from my own study and practice is that the conscious mind is limited. Whether “the truth,” assuming there is such a thing, is closest to the Madhyamika, Yogacara, Advaita, or some other view has very little bearing on my daily practice and conduct. It is my opinion that none of the aforementioned views, or any other, is “the truth.” Some or all may come close but, in the end, they are simply conceptual constructs of a limited mind which craves explanations, knowledge, security, and control. The mind which desires to grasp “the truth” is in many ways the primary obstacle to the very understanding it craves, at least in the tradition I follow. One thing I will offer, since you ask for answers, is my opinion that your understanding of shunyata is flawed, hence your conclusions regarding its inaccuracy has no foundation. Understanding the nature of shunyata is primarily experiential. A rational and conceptual apprehension of shunyata can be useful for debate and discussion but is necessarily flawed, as shunyata is pointing to an experience that is free of concept, free even of understanding, free of subject-object differentiation. I will decline to engage in extensive debate as it’s not my strong suit, nor does philosophy or theory interest me much. I apologize for not being able or willing to elaborate on my ‘answer’ further. Suffice it to say that a meaningful understanding of shunyata requires dedicated personal practice. Mipham’s Beacon of Certainty is a good resource. The best resource is skillful practice, IMO. The apparent paradox implied here is resolved in the dzogchen view due to the nature of shunyata. Words are clumsy and imperfect but I’ll use a few here. In the dzogchen view all is impermanent, compounded phenomena BUT the base is empty, clear, and the foundation of all. The characteristics of emptiness include that it’s indestructible, boundless, ceaseless, unborn, undying, uncreated, limitless, pervasive, etc... Hence it is “permanent” and yet at the same time it is empty, unimputable, so you can’t posit it as anything in particular. This is precisely why it can serve as the base of everything. Enough of my words. Words are cheap. I’m not asking you to believe and my own understanding is quite limited so I definitely don’t ask you to believe me! I just thought I’d offer some thoughts of my own. I hope they are of some use. Warm regards on this auspicious day!

Not quite accurate but not as far fetched as some suggest. Here is an interesting discussion of the origins of modern yoga in the West. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yogajournal.com/.amp/yoga-101/yoga-s-greater-truth

So this baby seal walks into a club...

The practice leader of my sangha can get some overtones when we chant mantra, especially Om