doc benway

Curiosity has nothing to offer a Buddhist practitioner? I’ll have to disagree again. Different strokes perhaps.

Thanks, I’ll check that out.

For most people, most of the time, the “I” is very real. I’m not yet to the point where it does not arise for me. Maybe someday but I’m not holding my breath. It does not exist in the way it appears and feels but, from a Buddhist perspective, I think it is an error of negation to say there is no such thing. I disagree. I have found it useful in many ways for me. We all need different things at different times. Perhaps it’s not at all useful for you at this point in your life. I’ll accept that. I disagree on multiple levels. To keep it simple I’ll just say it can help show us the truth of the mind being the source of our unique experience of reality. If I say something not intending to hurt anyone and the other person still feels offended, would you say their feeling is negated by my lack of intent? Why not?

Not your confusion, mine... 😁 When I first began my reply I typed “yes and no.” I then decided to reply more from the perspective of my active practice so I changed it. I agree with you that from a relative perspective all of those stories seem to need to be released, even the ones that support our practice. In the dzogchen teachings it’s often said we need to let go of both hope and fear. Letting go of hope, in a very real sense not just theory, can be a tough one and we should never push someone to go that way until they are ready. There are certain things we need, until we no longer need them. It’s Ok to start working with the negative emotions and tackling the positive, supportive emotions when and if we get to that point. From the absolute perspective however, there is nothing out of place, nothing that needs to change. That is part of the meaning of the Great Perfection. That was the point if replying the way I did. Everything is fine just as it is... leave it as it is. That’s the method.

Our communication and relationships are increasingly occurring through digital media, often anonymous, particularly as people are increasingly isolated or distanced from each other. I often see people here, and elsewhere, talking about differences in how they are online and in person. I think this is what made me curious. It seems to me that being aware of those differences could be useful, could possibly help us communicate a bit more clearly. I have also found it useful to look at my personal motivation for engaging here. Why do I do it at all? What am I looking for? What drives me to post what I do, to withhold what I do? I've learned some things about myself from taking a little time to look at this. Yes, in my tradition everything is a projection of mind. I have found that I do not always see myself with complete accuracy, meaning others see aspects of me that I may not see myself. I see the projections of my mind. Others see the projections of their minds. When I can make space to embrace both, I have a more accurate picture which can be useful. For example, I once had an employee tell me how intimidated they were when working with me. I was shocked. I did not see myself at all in the way they saw me. Knowing how I affected them allowed me respond with a little more sensitivity and awareness which led to a better working relationship. I've had similar experiences with family relationships and friendships. Is it a trap? Anything can be a trap. I think the content I posted is more like bait and the mind's processes in dealing with it, if unrecognized, are the trap. So for me, it's all in how I approach it. Different questions come up for me from time to time. I think I'm simply curious about the workings of my mind. Does it matter? I think that is something for each of us to look at in our own lives. Thanks for your comments.

I wish I could find the references but I can’t lately. I listened to a fascinating radio program describing experimental models demonstrating that the thought comes after the action. It is more a descriptor, a narrator, than a decider.

Short answer - no Explanation: There certainly is this sense that I need to give something up, and if you take it to the next step, that implies that giving something up will accomplish something or take ‘me’ somewhere other than where I already am; but that is not the view or the practice. Even that is one of those positive stories you point to. We each find ourselves where we are at any given moment. Thoughts come up, and feelings and stories. Nothing wrong with them at all. It happens to yogis and politicians alike, to my teachers, my teachers’ teachers, going all the way back as evidenced in the pith instructions of the earliest masters. They are the natural energy, the display of the union of openness and clarity as it’s described in Bön. Engaging in a forum like this, with you good folks, something like what I posted is/was natural to arise, anything can come up depending on the causes and conditions. This is samsara, that is what happens. The most important thing is to be authentic to that, whether I share with you all or not. What ever it is, that is the path in that moment. And the practice, if needed, is to leave it as it is, not to give something up. There is an important distinction rooted in the dzogchen view. Less of a subject needed to leave it be than to give it up... you are also leaving be the desire to give it up. Musical interlude- Can we give up thinking, feeling, stories? For a time, sure. And that’s yet another positive story. Thoughts, feelings, stories, recollection, reflection happen often to my experience. At times they arise and they release, spontaneously, effortlessly. When that is sustained and stable, which is rare, it is bliss - literally and figuratively. Far more often they arise and I help them to go using a technique, by simply noticing they are there, or looking back at the thinker, and so forth. At other times, I find myself already engaged, wrapped up. They can be very sticky. At these times, they have not liberated spontaneously, or through simple recognition, so there are other avenues, often referred to as antidotes. We can reflect, practice mantra, we can share, have a discussion (with self or others)... The take home is that we need to be authentic to our experience and our practice and apply, in any given moment, what is needed. So yes, the idea of giving up the stories is there sometimes. The feeling that it is something that has to be done or has to happen. And that new condition will be different or somehow preferable. It can go all the way down it’s own rabbit hole. All the samsara activity of the 5 skhandas like to help. And that thought will also follow one of those patterns my teacher defines based on what was needed:m, in our tradition: Superior practitioner - spontaneous, effortless, self-liberation in unbounded presence (rigpa). Middling - to be aware of the absence of self- liberation and look to the thought, or look back at the thinker, and collapse duality. Inferior - employ antidotes Most of us experience different levels of practice along the Way which should trend toward self-liberation over time if we’re doing it right. So no, no need to give anything up, just leave everything precisely as it is. Once again, the 21 Nails excerpt I recently shared is germaine here. It’s my go to lately.

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 Your posts do not disappoint. In thinking about what it means to me to moderate here, there are two potentially conflicting considerations. These are freedom of expression and protection against abuse. My interpretation of what the post of moderator implies is to prioritize freedom from abuse over freedom to express. My hope is that this will foster a deeper, freer, and more authentic sharing than simply allowing as much freedom of expression as possible. There may be a bit of reactivity in my choices as a result of the lawlessness and rancor that were pervasive here for a while. It was certainly not a comfortable place for me to share then. I rarely started threads or shared anything sensitive but feel a bit more comfortable to do so as things are changing. And I know that some points of view or information will suffer as a result of the changes. I recognize it’s not going to be what everyone wants this forum to be. Some enjoy the sparring, the chest beating, or the opportunity to blow off steam. To them it’s a game and that’s fine for what it is. Lots of other platforms offer that. Here we have a collection of some quite unique, sensitive, experienced, and insightful practitioners. That is exceedingly rare. What a shame it would be to stifle the exciting possibilities inherent in a group like this with the sort of bellicose “freedom” of expression we’ve had to endure in the past. I do not say this to criticize the previous mod teams. They have my respect and I miss many of those folks. All I can do is be authentic to my values in how I behave and moderate. And I do fuck up - just did it earlier today, badly in fact. In terms of the inner work, I’m currently engaged in a 3 year program that integrates spiritual training and practice with elements of psychotherapy - journaling, writing out personal transformations, group sessions, and so on. So I’m in a place where I’m very open to facing my shortcomings and darkness, actively seeking it in fact. Nevertheless, it is not always easy as you point out. Particularly when we open ourselves to anonymous strangers in a place that until recently was characterized by brutal and unrestrained attacks. I’m still quite guarded both here and in the flesh, and opening to those sensitive areas is my path right now.

In looking at the forum settings, there is a setting to allow/disallow members to hide their own posts. There is no option to specifically allow them to unhide that I can find. I assumed that members can see their own hidden posts but it seems that is not correct. As far as I can tell, members need to ask mods to unhide hidden posts.

Spontaneous refers to the fact that we do nothing to create them or even cultivate them directly. If our view and practice are correct and we have faith and devotion, they manifest spontaneously, expressed as enlightened qualities in our body, speech, and mind. Yes, most of what I post is related to the dzogchen view, as I understand it. No different in dzogchen as compared to sutra or tantra, I suspect - the five aggregates of form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness.

Are you a native French speaker?

Yes, no worries on my account. Actually my intent was not to solicit opinions on my behavior here. My title was perhaps a bit clumsy and misleading. It was a rhetorical question meant to encourage people to look inward. You needed to read the OP to get that I guess and Cloud Hands admitted not reading the thread. My apologies Yueya, if my ambiguity caused any distress. I deeply appreciate and admire the forbearance you display here and find your contributions some of the most stimulating. I appreciate all of the posts. I won’t respond so much to comments about me personally as I didn’t intend to make this about me, rather about each of us taking the opportunity to look at ourselves if we’re willing. That said, there is more than a little truth to Cloud Hands’ comments. 😁

Touché!

Indestructible truth is only indestructible because it is empty - no structure at all, even unimputable. The unique characteristics of "space" are what make it such an apt and useful analogy.

With respect, I have concerns regarding your usage of the terms Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and (in previous posts) Dharmakaya. It's a tricky subject and definitions may vary a bit depending on school and whether the instruction is in sutra, tantra, or dzogchen. I generally view the 3 kayas as the spontaneous expression of enlightened qualities in body, speech, and mind. I freely admit my understanding is limited. It's taken me years to develop a sense of what these terms point to and it's still a work in progress. I'd be interested in how you understand or define the 3 kayas if you feel like sharing.

it's a symptom of my profession...

Certainly The way it works is described as having 3 components - empty essence, clear nature, and the inseparability of those two qualities is the source of infinite potential for manifestation. Thoughts are a symptom, an energetic display

I think in some sense, we are nearly always communicating with ourselves. As Krishnamurti might put it, ‘my image of myself is in relationship with my image of you.’ Nowhere is this more obvious than in anonymous digital communication, where it is responsible for so many conflicts here and elsewhere...

@dwai I think Apech’s reply was more accurate and concise than I could manage. Perhaps ‘self-aware ‘ implies a subject as a consequence of our familiar condition of duality rather than being evidence of some absolute truth

According to the dzogchen teachings, no one does. Subject-object duality is the consequence of fundamental ignorance, called ma rigpa - literally not knowing. The Natural State has the quality of being self-aware, also referred to as clarity. This self-aware quality is also called rigpa, or knowing.

Your thread... just asking

I wonder if this is the place for such a detour?

Not a belief, just sharing my experience. Some of the things I’ve observed over time have caused negative emotions to arise. That’s what I’m referring to as painful. Painful doesn’t mean bad, usually the opposite. That pain is exposing areas where there may be resistance or attachment - things to liberate and grow with.

Crossword puzzles!

I thought it was answered, though maybe not to your satisfaction. What we are trying to do is loosen our habitual tendency to identify with a subject of experience in order to collapse the subject-object duality. At least that’s what is described in the dzogchen teachings.