doc benway

Exactly what I was thinking Jesse... Like old3bob points out, none of those Steves I portray in life are actually who I am. In my tradition, we refer to those as pain identities - limited aspects of ourselves that arise in relation to some role, or relationship, or stimulus. We generally think of "me" as being whichever of those identities is active in the current moment. What I created this thread for, however, was more to explore my DaoBums persona and how that relates to the variety of personas I inhabit in my day to day. Not so much with the intention of transcending ignorance and connecting with the absolute Nature of Myself, but rather to become a bit more aware of who I am when I am here. Why I make certain choices, post certain things and not others, etc... Mostly an invitation to anyone with similar interests to look at this in themselves. And to discover different perspectives on the topic as I have already done thanks to you and old3bob. Thanks for the replies.

@silent thunder There seem to be some quirks and I'm no BKA! One thing that may work if you disable signature settings but still come across visible signatures 1. Look to the right of any visible signature and you should see a small "X" 2. Click the X and a drop down menu appears - - Hide this signature - Hide all signatures 3. Select Hide all... 4. Log out and log back in Let me know if that helps. Thanks

@silent thunder Please take a look now. Has anything changed regarding the 3 members’ signatures you referenced above? Thanks

A folk gotta do what a folk gotta do!

Nothing is very far apart from dzogchen, other than the practitioner, and not even that one from the perspective of the Nature. The comparison may have been a bit irresponsible on my part. At the same time, we’ve got our different paths and showing where we might converge can be useful and supportive. That was my intent..

Or for someone to seek for superhuman power and abilities with little or no real guidance, knowledge, or support other than books or utube . We’ve seen that combination here quite a bit. It’s not terribly effective.

Thank you for the beautiful eulogy. It painted a vivid picture. My condolences for your loss. 🙏🏽

panic room

Daoism is the correct spelling according to the pinyin method of transliteration of Mandarin. Taoism was the correct spelling in the Wade-Giles method. The pinyin system is currently the closest to a currently accepted standard in China. You'll see both used interchangeably here. Welcome!

I don’t know anything about Wilber but I will agree that this type of practice can be problematic without adequate preparation, context, and guidance. For some people it can very effective and natural, for others ineffective. Some get into problems with nihilism or depersonalization as we were recently discussing elsewhere and yet others misunderstand and deviate from Dharma.

This objective sounds similar to the dzogchen approach I practice. The precise methods are different and, frankly, the devil really is in the details - especially in dzogchen instruction. Miss by a hair and you may as well miss by a mile. Nonetheless, the bottom line is cultivating a different sense of what we identify as “me.” In Tibetan Buddhism and Bön the highest possible “degree of consciousness” is considered to be the Nature of Mind or the Natural State and is often referred to as “nothing special.” It is simply the open awareness within which all experience manifests. We can learn to access that to a degree. Fully connecting with that in an irreversible way is liberation or Buddhahood. This is why dzogchen is said to be able to lead to Buddhahood in this very lifetime..

This all brings to mind for me the connection between Jungian thought and shamanism. There are several books on the subject but I've not read any. Here is a brief article on the topic - https://www.longdom.org/open-access/was-c-g-jung-a-shaman-2161-0487-1000339.pdf I've thought of giving this book a look - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5011577-jung-and-shamanism-in-dialogue

I recently have been listening to teachings on the 21 Nails from Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung, a Bön teacher in Nepal. The 7th Nail, I believe it was, was a discussion of unities, I think there were 10. The take away message was the pointing out of non-duality of subject and object or of Rigpa (intrinsic awareness) and the 3 visions (often referred to as sound, light, and rays). PS - if anyone is interested there is an excellent translation of the root text and core commentary here

For my teacher, being a Daoist meant practicing meditation as outlined by his master. He was very devoted. He discouraged any reading or studying and felt that any time spent trying to grasp at the Dao through books or media was wasted time. For him it was all about the meditation. Consequently, practice is the primary focus for me but I will freely admit that conceptual understanding also has its place and may be more important for some than for others. I think my teacher recognized that, as Westerners, we were more naturally focused on the concepts and the meaning and less prone to simply follow our teachers’ instructions with complete devotion. That’s something that seems to come more naturally in Asian cultures.

Bön dzogchen teaches us to take the thoughts and feelings themselves as the path to liberation. That liberation has nothing to do with the absence of thought but rather with the release of identification as a thinker, as Hypnoape pointed out. You can follow that very thought or feeling until it, and the thinker grasping it, collapse or dissolve. That’s the core practice. In the beginning finding and occupying this state of meditation is elusive and fragile. With time it can become powerful and effortless. One can integrate all activity into that state but it’s not easy. On the other hand, it’s also instructive to take inventory of just how much time we spend in thought, or busy with physical activity, or in speaking, to ourselves and others. When going through a 5 year cycle of dzogchen teachings, we went through this sort of exercise. We paid attention to how much time we were wrapped up in activities of body, speech, and mind. We contemplated how much of that was really necessary, or beneficial, and how much was simply habitual or dysfunctional, even toxic to self and others. Then we were invited at the end of each annual retreat to try and let go of the unnecessary and habitual stuff in the coming year. We started with a goal of reducing activities of body, speech, and mind by 5-10% or more if we could. It was a wonderful experience and I encourage anyone to give it a try. When we think less we see more, when we talk less we hear more, when we act less we can connect more. This is one of my favorite teachings - Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base. The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy. Chasing after them is the way you are deluded. Viewing them as deficient is the error. Leaving them as they are is the method. Freeing them into vastness is the path. Non-duality is the realization ~ from The Twenty One Nails

Hence the 4 stages of a Hindu life... I struggle with it as well but I think navigating that is simply our path, unless we choose another.

Well said, and much of the thread and knots used for the knitting are rotten or undependable so sometimes the unraveling can be frustratingly slow only to drop off a cliff when a chunk comes apart fast. You need a Refuge of some sort to identify with or some other form of support. That is the basis of the way my teacher presents the 3 Doors teachings, I suspect. The focus is on the connection of Refuge, not the disconnection of emptiness which is often emphasized in sutric teachings.

There are 3 general types that come to mind which I’m sure can be elaborated further - - nihilistic depersonalization: I do not exist, I am worthless, I am nothing, ... existing only in the intellectual grasping at emptiness or a dissociative state leading to disconnection. - eternalistic depersonalization: I am God, I am all powerful and all knowing, you must submit to MY supreme will.... less common but can be seen in pschopathies and narcissistic PD. Disconnected from reality testing. - Awakening: having the experience of being as unbounded self-aware presence, Rigpa. There is a very distinct and permanent change in personal identification with exuberance and profound bliss but no loss of reality testing. There is absolute spaciousness occupied by no one and yet complete connection and integration is there, nothing whatsoever is lacking - the Great Perfection... Bodhicitta is spontaneous So some degree of depersonalization is expected but needs to be balanced with grounding in direct and precise practice and support when necessary.

Here is a thread with some additional info and discussion on the topic...

I don’t disagree with any of the above. It’s an important and legitimate criticism and context. I appreciate you endorsing the pure Dharma. I needed to find that myself, which I did in Bön. And there is also a hopeful feeling and a prayer in my heart that the West can learn and grow from contact with the teachings even without embracing the ‘whole enchilada.’ My root teacher has explored how to get the necessary components into a more secular and accessible package for Westerners. I think it’s possible to benefit without necessarily embracing it all but it does take an extra level of responsibility and care. Same goes for Daoist teachings. Far fewer opportunities for Daoists to get transmission from credible sources.

I think the picture is a little bigger and would like to flesh it out with some counter-points. My apologies if I am misunderstanding or projecting Apech... Preliminaries can also be actual practice, once we make a certain degree of progress in them. Good point and important to show us the connection of practice to our real lives, not just our imaginary aspirations, expectations, and projections. Practice needs to touch our real lives, whatever that may mean. Navigating our busy schedules and how to integrate meaningful practice is real and important in our lives. Feeling better about 'me' is quite important. If we are self-deprecating pieces of shit, we can't very well generate much in the way of devotion, confidence, commitment, compassion, etc... Our modern lives are full of stressors that disconnect us, that cause anxiety, insecurity, tension, etc... Nothing wrong with first getting us to a place where we have some self respect and self esteem and work from there. Bad relationships can poison our lives. The old way was to run off to the monastery or a cave. That's great if you can do it. You'll also find bad relationships in the monastery. And most of us can't retreat like that very often or very long. So we need to work with what is in our lives and that includes relationships. In fact, Bodhicitta practice must include those closest to us. Otherwise it becomes a fabrication of loving "all sentient beings" - that group is easy to love, siblings, co-workers, spouses, parents not always as easy... I think there is far more potential value in the mindfulness movement than short naps. Many people find value and take it in the right direction with good support. I think you're being a bit too critical of the "movement." No question there is corruption and opportunism as well as materialism among the teachers and students alike. But that is us, not an inherent fault in mindfulness practice, IMO.

A young woman who lives a few hours from me ended her life immediately following a Goenka vipassana retreat a few years back. It caused a brief stir, a few magazine articles... If I teach anyone anything about meditation (and I've been doing some lately), I bring up mental health in the beginning. If there is a history of mental illness, depression, drug use, abuse, etc... we need to have a plan of where to turn for support. Meditation exposes and thereby weakens the defense mechanisms we use to keep our demons at bay. We all have some. First - if we practice long enough to have any success, our inner chatter quiets and we feel some relief, some space, some relaxing and settling. That's what most folks are looking for and that's enough for them... ...but they can't always control how deep they go or what's waiting to show up. Second - we intentionally turn inward, towards where those demons live. We normally turn away... to ANYTHING but what it's like to simply be quiet, with ourself. And we are so much more disconnected now than ever with our plethora of distractions. If we continue to progress in our practice we turn on a light in that darkness, maybe for the first time in a long time... or ever. No surprise it can "make the mental illness worse." It can also lead to depersonalization experiences which very some are sensitive to, as the things we normally identify with are seen to not be "who we really are." Some form of that depersonalization experience is a predictable part of the path. It can be Divine or it can be horrific, depending on one's karma, maybe a little of both. My Dao meditation teacher told his students that we all carry the imprints of everything we've been exposed to in life. At some point we must face them all... for most that happens at the time of death when we're weak and vulnerable hand have neither the tools or resources to process. He also felt that the very high rate of suicide in the elderly is related to this. Choosing to do this work now, while we are healthy and prepared and motivated is a much better way.

Another source of veneration is if a particular lineage master does something valuable for the integrity of the lineage. They may protect the continuity of transmission or bring together disparate elements, synthesizing them under one banner, and so forth. There are many examples in various lineages of spiritual and philosophical teachings and martial arts. Several examples in the Tibetan Bön tradition.

When smelling good bud, I’ve been known to invite myself to the party... 😎

A humbling topic and discussion. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 to those who have shared. A good friend lost his daughter to suicide. I can’t imagine his pain.