doc benway

For me, your perspective is spot on. No surprise as that is precisely the path I’ve chosen - unflinching, uncompromising awareness of me. My best friend is a harsh, filter-less mirror and I love him and am better for it. What other worthwhile path to spirituality is there? And I’ll also acknowledge that there’s a time and place for everything. We need to work through things with the tools and demeanor we’ve got. Not everyone is ready or interested in cracking themselves wide open. As you said, when we look deeply enough we will necessarily find things we don’t want to or aren’t ready to face. Very important to have real support for that to whatever extent is possible. I think it greatly enhances our chances of success.

It wasn’t rudeness, insults, or name calling that got Jeff to leave. That stuff’s easy to ignore if we choose to. It was communication that got him to leave. People courageously came forward with their personal stories and Jeff got the clear message from real communication from multiple members that he was no longer welcome. Ad hominem attacks have no value in discourse here IMO, nor do threats. Particularly in digital discourse where people feel little reservation or threat of consequence. It is easy to be blunt and direct without resorting to threats and demeaning and insulting flatulence. The passive-aggressive bullshit is much tougher to moderate and will be here with or without the keyboard bullies. It’s not a matter of trading one for another. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and where it is drawn here is relatively generous and open- minded. All we can do is strive to communicate with authenticity and directness. Some people are capable and willing to do that more than others. And our interpretation is the most important piece of the puzzle. I’ve accused and been accused of sarcasm or unauthentic posts and often people feel a comment is about them when directed elsewhere. All kinds of miscommunications occur. We need to be responsible for ourselves. With great freedom comes great responsibility. That’s the problem in media today, no responsibility or integrity.

Agreed

I think it’s good to look at who possesses qi and what that even means. Where is the separation between my qi and that of others, that of the environment? My personal conclusion is that they are continuous and affect each other profoundly.

For sure, all connections are impermanent. Grasping, even at connection, is an error.

I believe it is due to the presence of awareness and with that awareness comes connection. There is little as important to health and happiness than being connected - to others, to nature, to ourselves. So for me it is vitality of connection.

I have not yet read through the thread and would simply like to share some initial reactions. There is certainly value to engaging the rational mind when approaching the Dharma, for as long as we need and benefit from that. The other side is that the Dharma is not created by or ever fully captured by discursive thought. For me, a big part of connecting to Dharma is to see the role the discursive mind plays in our lives and to find balance between its value and limitations. So I would not put too much emphasis solely on what makes sense and allow yourself to develop some trust in what you are experiencing, whether or not it yet makes sense. For many it is a bad word, but in that lies the beginnings of faith which is an enormously powerful fuel to spiritual practice.

For me, Osho opened the door of meaning in Daoism from a book perspective but practicing Dao meditation is really what I needed to make a deep connection. Most Daoist texts and poems are dense and esoteric, not intended for public consumption. Once I got a taste they slowly made more sense, eg Neiye, but even then the language can be abstruse and ambiguous.

I think there is an English translation available but I can’t comment on the quality of translation - https://www.goldenelixir.com/press/trl_01_wuzhenpian.html

My favorite is probably: Original Tao: Inner Training (Nei-yeh) and the Foundations of Taoist Mysticism by Harold Roth. You can find many translations of Neiye for free, including right here in Sean’s thread, but Roth’s translations and discussion were well worth the price of the book. Another book I found to be wonderful and very insightful, and which may be a tad controversial here, is When the Shoe Fits, a collection of Osho’s musings on Zhuangzi parables. I read it when I first began to be interested in Daoism many years ago and Osho’s interpretations really helped me to penetrate some of the esoteric and elusive concepts in Zhuangzi. Otherwise I’m not much of a fan of Osho...

More about dzogchen, this is mainly for people who may try to play with this without expert guidance. As mentioned above, I was taught to start every practice with the 9 Breathings practice and Tsa Lung Trul Khor. In addition to this, dzogchen is traditionally taught as being 100% dependent on practicing Guru Yoga. And all dzogchenpas first go through the very rigorous practices of the Ngöndro. My teacher has created a secular path that allows people uncomfortable with Guru Yoga and more "religious" feeling practices to practice dzogchen effectively but it is still a challenge to get the practice to really work and still requires some degree of guidance. The reason I mention all this is that simply engaging in these "non-doing" practices and expecting them to lead to liberation of our physical, mental, and emotional blockages is not realistic for most. It is a long path to reach a point where the "non-doing" skill is cultivated to a point where it is effective. To get to that point, engaging these other physical, mental, and energetic methods is critically important. They need to be done properly and one needs to see specific signs that they are having the intended effects.

I would say that yes, for me at this point resting in the Nature would be enough to deal with conventional problems if that were the only tool I had to work with. No question it is the single most powerful and effective practice in my toolkit. I do have other tools and I do use them regularly. Most dzogchenpas incorporate other practices during their times of formal practice, at least in Bön. For most this includes breathing exercises (9 Breathings of Purification, Tummo) and breathing exercises combined with body movement (Tsal Lung and other Trul Khor practices). I've been taught to incorporate some of these into every practice session. The meditation practice can still be just as effective without, in my experience, but these practices are very supportive and do enrich the overall experience for body, speech, and mind. Currently, I do use other practices as well. I had a long history with taijiquan, xingyi, bagua, qigong, and neigong before finding Bön. I let those practices go for a long time. The Covid pandemic was a stimulus for me to reconnect with those practices, primarily taiji, qigong, and some limited neigong. I do feel there is something in those practices that is very healthy, healing, and balancing for body and mind. Part of it is simply the physical exercise and breathing exercise. Another aspect is how conducive they are to supporting the meditative mindset. So I bring the same dzogchen method to the table when engaging in those practices. Another point worth making is that these practices for me are not simply tools. It's not just about using them to move towards a goal. They are also the goal itself. They are done for the sake of doing, being, connecting, and experiencing. All sorts of things move through me as I engage in practice and the ability to connect and fully experience what is happening is enhanced by the nature of these practices. More than just tools, they are like precious works of art. There is just the right piece of music for a given mood, just the right piece of art to evoke a particular feeling, memory, or potential that lies dormant inside. They can be like a finely crafted poem, going beyond the conceptual mind and opening us to something brand new. So I don't only do these things for any particular outcome or to simply deal with problems. They can be marvelously fulfilling in and of themselves, unleash creative potential, and open new and unexpected doors.

Didn't sound jerky, it's just my reactivity and I meant it a bit tongue in cheek. I've had a couple times lately when my opinion has been taken as if I think I speak for everyone... But that was someone else's stuff, not mine and not yours. You're right, if we follow a tradition or set of instructions, it's important to stick with it. On the other hand, equally important to be aware that no one method is right for everyone and all (or at least most) have their place. Mixing paradigms or methods can be confusing and I don't recommend it until one achieves a certain degree of skill and stability following one game plan for a period of time. Once we really know the direction to go in, have some experience with that, and develop a little stability; then we can be a little more flexible, I think.

I think I will put a disclaimer at the bottom of every post... ~ this is my perspective only, it is not meant to be generalized as an absolute or authoritative statement

I'll flesh this out a bit more, if that's ok, from my perspective as a practitioner. There is a period of time during which we do practice to get rid of thought. It's a transient phase during which we attempt to identify the basis of thought and emotion, its essence. It is necessary so that we can begin to see how we mis-identify with those transient experiences of thought and emotion and take them as who we are. This is where the fundamental problem arises. Once we are able to make that distinction, then the process is to allow those experiences to come and go as they will without disturbing us. If we are successful at that, we are liberated and those transient experiences no longer have the power to cause difficulties.

All are fine when functioning well and healthy. An abnormal heartbeat, asthma, stomach ulcer, all can be serious problems. And all can be a result of chronic stress, as can many other "physical" problems. There is quite a bit of stigma associated with "mental illness" so unhealthy activity of the mind is often ignored and allowed to become far more serious a problem than it might if talked of and addressed more openly. Are there many out there who point at healthy thinking as an abnormal problem? I suspect it's more a matter of people looking for some relief from maladaptive and dysfunctional patterns of thought and emotion. It is such a pervasive phenomenon in modern, industrialized and digitized society.

When I meditate, I don’t lose myself. I find myself. I sometimes do make preparations... sitting or standing a certain way, breathing and body movements, lots of supports that I find useful and beautiful. Equally necessary to integrate, to meditate without preparation - life becomes the practice. The doing for me is non-doing: - don’t chase the past - don’t create the future - don’t change the present, externally or internally. Leave it as it is. Simply maintain clarity and openness.

Very nice! Thank you

there’s no time to lose it is always ever now leave it as it is

I’m used to seeing Bönpos wearing blue... I was lazy! 🤣

Thanks Miroku! My apologies, I thought he was Bönpo

I don't have time to read through the thread right now but here is some info and a few resources - The top video in the OP is Yungdrung Bön Tsa Lung Trul Khor practice from one of the three dzogchen lineages in Bön, the Zhangzhung Nyuengyüd lineage. This lineage is unique and precious to the Bön as it is unbroken, never hidden and recovered as terma. That's very rare. I studied Daoist meditation, qigong, neigong, and internal martial arts intensively for about 12 years. Then I found Bön and never looked back. There are marked similarities between Dao meditation, qigong, neigong, and Tibetan practices. The primary similarities are to the tantric lineages which is where practices like Tsa Lung, Trul Khor, Tummo, and other breathing and body movement practices come from. Tantra, very much like neigong and qigong, works a lot with the body-energy (breath) -mind connection. The primary purpose of these practices, like in yoga, is to clear obstacles to energetic flow and balance to allow deeper connection to the source of being. There are Tibetan lamas teaching these things in the West as well as some Westerners. One such teacher is a good friend of mine, Alejandro Chaoul. He was trained partly here in the states by my teacher, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. He got the majority of his Trul Khor training in Bön monasteries in Nepal and India. He was leading annual Trul Khor workshops for the past few years at the Serenity Ridge retreat center in Virginia. Of course, that is currently on hold but hopefully there will be one in the Fall. He is currently offering an online introductory Trul Khor training program. It is not the same set as demonstrated in the video above, it is the set associated with the A Khrid dzogchen lineage. It's a bit less physically challenging and the best place to start if interested in the training. The online course is offered through Wisdom Publications and would be a great way to get a taste - https://wisdomexperience.org/courses/tibetan-yoga/ There is a comprehensive book on the subject by Tempa Dukte Lama with Olmo Ling Institute in Pittsburgh. Here is a link to info on the book - https://www.olmoling.org/contents/thrul_khor_ancient_tibetan_bon_yoga/. Alejandro also wrote a book on the subject, albeit a bit less comprehensive - https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Yoga-Health-Well-Being-Practice/dp/1401954340. There are ways to get some free instruction in the more fundamental practices of 9 Breathings of Purification and Tsa Lung from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche of Ligmincha International and others, such as Geshe Chaphur at Gyalshen Institute in California or Geshe Yongdong in British Columbia at Sherab Chamma Ling. All do in person retreats, Zoom teachings, some Facebook teachings, prerecorded courses. Lot's of options! Here is one way to do get started - https://ligminchalearning.com/starting-a-meditation-practice/. This is a free course on basic Bön practices that includes instruction in the 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung. All of these are offered will full permission and support of the lamas and the lineage. Teachings on Tummo are scheduled for the summer retreat this year at Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's retreat center at Serenity Ridge. It's currently being considered that this retreat may be offered online rather than in person due to the pandemic situation. More info will be coming soon but is not yet posted. Keep an eye on the ligmincha.org webpage if you are interested. You will need to put in some significant time working with the 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung before studying Tummo but it should be possible if you are committed. I'll come back later and read through the thread and see if there's anything else worth mentioning. Be well everyone

Mine just dropped into the green! 🧘🏻‍♂️

I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself, here or elsewhere. We each have a perspective and each perspective is equally valid.