doc benway

It only matters if you are interested in being unconditioned vs being conditioned... The difference is a matter of freedom and liberation. In Buddhist terms it’s the difference between samsara and nirvana. In Daoist terms it’s a matter of wu wei and de. Does it really matter? I guess it’s a question of does it matter to each of us? PS - it does to me

In the Tibetan paradigm, any activity or decision done in that meditative equipoise is spontaneous activity of the natural state - tsal. It is the lively, energetic display of the union of space and awareness. No one and no thing is doing it, it is simply happening. And the tricky part is that it is seeing itself happening. No one is watching. It’s subtle and not everyone has the karma to really feel it but even if you don’t feel it you are always it - every bit as much as the Buddhas and Immortals of the 3 times. edit - and to your point, IF you have precisely experienced it in meditation and have developed certainty (that is called direct introduction); then it needs to be stabilized and then brought into daily activity in a progressive manner. Any time the decision maker or question asker shows up, back to ignorance. PS - there is an online course teaching this very principle coming up soon - http://shenten.org/en/component/content/article/73-shenten/448-dzogchen-meditation-practice Probably best suited for people with some dzogchen experience but I think it’s open to all No where, it is not a thing that can move, it is the unbounded expanse in which all things move. It does not come and go. It has no point of reference, boundary, or direction. What waxes and wanes is the ignorance.

The question about decision making does not apply. When one is resting in a state of unconditioned awareness, the decision maker is not active. Thoughts, feelings, and ideas may come and go but they don't linger and they don't guide activity or decision making. Once the decision maker enters, the experience is no longer unconditioned. Until you get a direct taste of that, it is unlikely to make sense no matter how many questions you ask or how many insightful answers you get.

I mentioned ChiDragon in another thread because he is exploring what toni is looking for. I think his interpretation and experience are limited and somewhat narrow-minded but not inaccurate. Here is a far more sophisticated look from my Chen taijiquan teacher, CP Ong. I think you would really like his book. https://www.amazon.com/Taijiquan-Cultivating-Strength-C-P-Ong/dp/061587407X He has also published a few short articles on the subject you may find interesting: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cp_Ong

I find it a wonderful irony that I come here to connect deeply with others and yet that is only possible if I am able to look more deeply at myself. My greatest lessons are when I see through my expectations, my projections, and especially my certainties. The only thing better about being here is getting to know some wonderful people.

Yes, no limit to what arises in life. The one who does all the doing is not so active when in that state of peace. Therefore nothing to interfere with whatever arises in each moment. No one there to not want to do things... things happen. Like Nungali, that state comes and goes for me but is much more familiar and present than in the past. You are speaking of unconditional happiness. It is the joy and wisdom of our natural and unconditioned state. So one thing important to understand is that the interference (presence) of the mind, the thinker that is asking your question, is the very obstacle to what it is trying to understand. The intellect can never understand this state, but awareness can experience it. We create a projection of our fantasies and use that as a reference point for this “state.” But the state we are referring to is literally beyond all reference points. We can’t describe it but can give instruction to move towards the experience. The experience occurs without the strong and defined sense of self involved, theoretically no sense of self but that is another abstraction and projection of fantasy unless you’re a Buddha or Immortal. When we think about what such a state is like, we make assumptions rooted in our unfamiliarity that don’t apply. If you are content, why NOT do something? And most importantly, who are you referring to that does or does not? That one is not engaged so the question doesn’t really apply in the first place. If we live in relation to others, to a society, things come up naturally and spontaneously. We embrace what comes up and let it breath. It takes care of itself in a natural way. One certainly can lockup in a cave and do nothing. It is not such a natural thing for a person to do but it can be good training. One can equally live whatever life presents fully without being shut away. The other piece is that the unconditioned state has its own intelligence that far exceeds the intellect. In my tradition it’s called an Inner Refuge. A part of this process is first making a connection, then developing confidence in its intelligence, and letting life flow.

You would love Chi Dragon but, alas, he’s been banned. Search for posts by ChiDragon and ReturnDragon. Chi is simply a word. What it points to is wide open to interpretation. To say it is a delusion is meaningless.

Exactly... If you are sitting on the beach, everything is fine, what more is there to do? Being content and accepting of all situations, however, does not mean that nothing ever needs doing. One needs to shit, eat, shelter from a storm, interact and connect with people, and help others in need. When the need arises the motivation to act will be there, even in the presence of contentment and acceptance. Perhaps I should say especially in the presence of contentment and acceptance. The reason is that we see more clearly in that frame of mind. We know more accurately what is needed and have less impediment to acting with precision.

Very clear

My son recently turned me on to Illiminati Congo...

Healing also requires good nutrition, adequate protein, adequate vitamins, so for fasting to help heal I think it's important to start from a well-nourished place.

I think there is a lot of beauty and wisdom in the teachings of Jesus. Christianity, especially in America, seems to have little or no connection to those teachings. It's all about tribalism and a particular political agenda. God for them now has pockets stuffed with cash and a gun in each hand. It's unfortunate. One of my favorite wisdom teachers was a Jesuit named Fr. Anthony Demello. His teachings were rooted in Eastern wisdom as he was Indian, and he was able to express and apply Christian teachings and principles masterfully. Here is a little parable of his that touches on this point: A long time ago, there was a man who invented the art of making fire. He took his tools and visited a tribe in the north, where the climate was bitter cold. The man taught the people how to make fire. And the people were spellbound. He showed them many uses for fire -they could cook, keep themselves warm, keep predators at bay, dance by firelight. So they built fire and were very grateful. But before they could express their gratitude, the man disappeared, because he wasn't concerned with recognition or gratitude. He was concerned only with their well-being. The fire-making man visited a different tribe, and began to teach the art of making fire. Like the first tribe, this tribe was mesmerized. But the tribe members' passion unnerved the tribe priests. It didn't take long for the priests to notice that the fire-making man drew large crowds, and the priests worried about lost influence and power. Because of their fear, the priests determined to kill the fire-making man. Worried that the tribe people might revolt, the priests devised a clever plan. Can you guess what they did? The priests made a portrait of the fire-making man, and displayed it on the main altar of the temple. The instruments for making fire were placed in front of the portrait, and the people were taught to revere the portrait and to pay reverence to the instruments of fire. The veneration and the worship went on for centuries. But there was no more fire.

Such a wonderful thread. You find some great stuff CT. Thank you!

PS - For me, it is better. For others, not necessarily better. Whatever works for the individual on their path to guide them in the right direction. That is better.

And I love you too!

I’m fine with whatever words, I know what you’re referring to. Once you’ve shared that, words don’t matter so much.

I do as well, informal practice My pleasure, language limitations make it difficult to speak about. Wonderful! I didn’t know you could sign up after the fact and access the recordings. I’d highly recommend starting with part 1, of you have access, and working through them very slowly. Part 1 is all nail 1, by far the most important material. There is enormous depth there. If you want to discuss, let me know. If you struggle, be easy on yourself, it can be very difficult material. Bottom line, its all trying to connect you to the Inner Refuge.

For engaging in practice, yes, don’t question or doubt, don’t analyze or explain, just leave it as it is. Simply abide in the view. Granted that does not mean there is no value in theoretical discussion. It is simply a pith instruction for practice. When you look for “what is unborn and undying” you only find unbounded spaciousness that is self-aware. You can’t say it is non-existent because it is very clear and fresh and present. And yet you don’t find anything in particular, just clarity and openness undisturbed by whatever arises. I would say all “understandings” of essence are necessarily limited as they are creations of mind. They tend to lead to one of the extremes. Mind’s essence is beyond mind’s contents. In dzogchen, there is no conceptual effort to understand essence just an effort to understand how to experience it and an understanding of what it is not. That said there are many descriptions of various qualities and characteristics to help guide us in practice and understanding but care is needed not to infer that “it” is “a something” that has qualities and characteristics or that it can be captured by a number or any other conceptual framework or measurement. They were wonderful but today was the last day. In 12 days we got through 4.25 nails. The first took 6 days but is the most important. He is a thorough and patient teacher.

I do think that is one aspect of what is a very complex philosophical discussion with multiple layers. It can be a position, it can perhaps simply be a description of experience (direct cognition). But even with direct and valid cognition the language and conceptual interpretation part walks a razor's edge in Buddhist philosophy. Tough to know without a thorough, theoretical discussion. Yes, oneness usually means there is a degree of eternalism present in the argument.

Teachings by Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung from Nepal on the 21 Nails. He spent quite a bit of time trying to make sure that participants were clear on this very subtle and tricky area. On the one hand we have our life experience of individuality. On the other hand there is the notion and experience of a fundamental essence that is non-differentiated and pervasive. It’s very easy for the mind to grab hold of a concept or label to try and understand but this mind cannot capture truth and is likely to lead us astray if we’re not precise. I think the dual nature of our experience necessarily requires paradoxical elements in any description we contrive.

If you substitute the word "emptiness" for "oneness" you might get a bit more engagement from Buddhists. Holding on to the concept or experience of oneness is considered falling into the extreme position of eternalism in Bön and Buddhism. I've been listening to some superb teachings on this very subject for that past few days.

I can offer a bit of a Western medical perspective if you are interested. A small percentage of people have genu valgum because of imperfect growth of bones of the knee, usually affecting the tibia. If there is major bony deformity, there is not much that can help this once growth is complete other than surgical re-alignment of the bone. Therapy, exercise, medicine, meditation, qigong, etc... are not likely to change the shape of the bone significantly once the bone has reached maturity, from the Western scientific perspective. Not looking to debate about this, who's right or wrong, just sharing this perspective. Another possible cause of genu valgum are related to malaglignment of the joints above or below (hip and ankle primarily). To address the knee deformity in this case, one must address the hip or ankle deformity. Another cause is soft tissue imbalance around the knee. This can be related to overly tight or loose tissues and these tissues may be limited to the knee (tight or loose ligaments) or extend beyond the knee as far as the foot, pelvis, or spine (this relates to tissues such as muscle, tendons, and fascia). These soft tissue problems can be helped through many techniques - stretching, strengthening, qigong, acupuncture, physical therapy, etc... Another possibility is neurological. Nerve disorders lead to weakened muscle and thus imbalanced forces around joints leading to deformity. What is important is to clarify what is the primary source of the problem (again I"m referring to the physical structure) and address that directly - is it a growth disturbance, is it a spine or hip issue, an ankle issue, tight muscle or fascia, and so forth. It is very difficult to determine that remotely. Also, one can go deeper into cause - karmic causes, emotional and psychological factors, nutritional, energetic, etc... I'm not going to get into those factors at this point. I hope that is of some value.

What is your approximate age and at what age did you first become aware of this? Ever have a serious knee injury? Any problems with arthritis to your knowledge?

I think we each bring a lot to these stories - intelligence, baggage, karma - and we need to begin with wherever we find ourselves, even translators. Your experience clearly shows your personal growth and it’s wonderful to see. I appreciate you sharing that. My experience with taijiquan was similar and it helped me to make that shift, as did meditation and even some readings. I think the changing perspective you describe can come from a variety of practices, both Buddhist and Daoist, and they seem to converge on this experience of emptiness or wu wei, depending on one’s preferred labels. I also think it’s important to return to the classics periodically. As we change so do they, from our perspective, and we can go deeper. I never saw that better than with a taijiquan book called the Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-ying. As my experiential knowledge of taijiquan matured, I was able to incrementally penetrate the lessons in the book over a period of years.

I’m a metal rat and struggle with some chronic lung disease. Just before Covid hit, a Tibetan friend warned this might be a challenging year for me.