doc benway

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Edited because my words were harsh and unnecessary.

It's always a bit dicey to mix absolute and relative perspectives and often leads to conflicts and misunderstandings here. I appreciate the posts of both virtue and walker. My response was more to the aspect of this thread that relates to personal identity and how we express that rather than technicalities of specific practices.

I will have to simply disagree with this point. Working with energy and spirits is no different than working with one's own mind. There is nothing simple about mind purification or realizing universal wisdom, other than from a theoretical perspective. You make it sound quite easy. I wonder how deeply your experience runs in such a practice? It can be full of form (eg tantric practices and internal alchemy) or formless (dzogchen, keeping the one, sitting and forgetting). I'll again disagree. One of the core foundations of the practice of universal wisdom is the wisdom of discernment. It's one of the five wisdoms of Buddhism and Bön. People who do not practice with universal wisdom often have inaccurate assumptions and projections about it. There's nothing simple or safe about investigating the depths of one's mind, particularly when working in the context of the mind being all of creation and experience. This is also why a practice like dzogchen was passed down in a highly discriminatory fashion for millenia. Initiation was taken very seriously and one master selected one pupil to teach in his lifetime, no more. While I respect those who follow other paths, the path of universal wisdom does not sit alongside other paths in a safe and shielded fashion. It encompasses and sublimates all other paths without exception when practiced skillfully.

I’ll be a bit presumptuous and elaborate on Thunder’s point. The reason that anyone can point the way is that pointing out occurs in us, not in the one doing the pointing. No one can cause us to see, no matter what Jeff and his crew suggest, that’s on us as practitioners. What we need to make that leap can vary widely and can be literally anything... a wack on the back of the head, a beautiful sunset, a tree, a sutra, a teacher, or the death of a loved one. The wisdom of the wise ones is valuable but not necessarily what anyone needs at any given time to grow. At least that’s how I interpret ST’s comment and I thin it’s a particularly valuable point.

What about....

I essentially agree with everything you wrote. I would not advocate sharing all at once. Very little sense in that. I didn’t say, or mean to imply, that there should be no criteria, no evaluation, and no judgment used. And that works both ways, student and teacher need to carefully assess each other. I think this evaluation process is important, the teacher student relationship is important, and I find it to be equally important in spiritual and martial contexts. You can really fuck someone up with unskillful spiritual practices. The issue regarding secrecy and lethal martial technique doesn’t hold as much water with me. Not that it couldn’t create a problem but the vast majority of violent offenders are going to buy or steal a knife or a gun - far easier and more effective than spending months, years, or decades finding the right teacher, training, and mastering lethal hand/foot techniques. We don’t see very many violent crimes being committed without weapons by martial arts masters. The process works. I did not say to abandon good judgment. There are teachers who like to keep certain things secret to maintain an edge or to allow a successor or very small, trusted group of students to maintain an edge. That’s a legacy martial, and spiritual, mindset that played an important role in the past but is largely obsolete, IMO. Some of that is also ego driven. My point is more that being more open with these teachings is good for everyone. The teacher benefits, the student benefits, and the art benefits. It’s still important to have standards. Two good examples come to mind - BJJ and dzogchen. BJJ was once a secret and allowed Royce Gracie to dominate UFC for years and allowed a handful of Brazilians to benefit. Once the secret was out, many more people benefited from access to this wonderful art and the overall level of competition and excellence grew worldwide as a result. Similar with dzogchen meditation. Once handed down to one qualified pupil per master in his lifetime, period. Now becoming very widespread and helping many people around the planet, not to mention preventing extermination of this precious knowledge with the Chinese occupation of Tibet. I know little to nothing about the knowledge and methods you’ve been taught. It sounds credible and worthwhile. What happens as you and the handful of other folks who carry that knowledge age and die (or fly off to immortality 😉), will that knowledge be lost? Are there others to pass it on? No question, we need to be cautious about our sharing but there needs to be a balance between caution and generosity, IMO.

Among the masters I've trained with (not using that term lightly), I've found a martial arts foundation leads to secrecy. Focusing on spiritual growth leads to more openness and drive to help as many people as possible. That said, the most powerful secrets of the Bön were once passed from master to only a single pupil per lifetime. In order to avoid extinction, they are now open source! No one is getting hurt, they are self-secret as Luke suggests, and the protectors can be trusted. I think it's harder for the martial mind to let go due to its nature. I've tasted that. And yet they are going extinct. We hear lamentations about so few masters and skillful adepts. This is why! A good friend and master of martial, qigong, and neigong arts showed me the wisdom of sharing even the most martial and powerful of secrets in a spirit of camaraderie rather than competition or dominance. Not only to save the teachings but to save ourselves and each other. I think that's something the macrocosm would benefit from embracing...

As far as my involvement, yes.

I've read that towards the end of her life she took full advantage of the social programs she so bitterly despised...

Have you ever noticed this quality in yourself?

Pretty much why I included Awakening the Luminous Mind on the list. I’ve had times when I’ve been emotionally overwhelmed by my good fortune in meeting my teachers and connecting to the Dao and Bön lineages.

A few books that have helped me towards my understanding such as it is - Original Tao by Harold Roth TaiChi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien Ying Chen Pan King’s Original Tai Chi Chuan Textbook by Chen Pan Ling Xing Yi Nei Gong by Miller and Cartmell Awakening the Sacred Body and Awakening the Luminous Mind by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche Tao Te Ching by Hu Xuezhi Interestingly, I haven’t come across many books specifically on “qigong” that I care to mention.

I appreciate you starting this discussion. I tend to be more focused on the how do I make it work for me side of things. Less interested in a specific description of the process or mechanism, be that anatomical, ATP, yi, jing-qi-shen, dan tians, and other conceptual models. I think that in doing the practice, seeing the results, investigating for ourselves, we can trust that the answers will come in time. One aspect is simply the nature of the human body. Specific movements correspond to particular characteristics of the limbs, organs,... resulting in unique effects. That has been worked out over millennia through trial and error, divine guidance, getting out of the way and letting it do itself, however we tend to see the process. Much like the knowledge of indigenous medicine has been worked out over time. It works because of awareness, connection, relationship. Awareness is the key ingredient. An openness that allows us to investigate first hand, with minimal expectation or interference. Of course intent needs to be a part, otherwise we’re sitting on our asses. Awareness connects with the body and breath. That connection needs to be deepened, refined, purified. Standing cultivates this. Quiet sitting refines and deepens and perfects it further. Moving the body and breath and maintaining that depth of connection allows us to reap physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual benefit (and martial prowess). For me, it’s all about integration with the source. That source is where the healing, fearlessness, knowing, and creativity reside. Everything is already there, we primarily develop our depth, strength, and precision of connection and what we need naturally comes out. There are lots of good books but for me the answers to why have come in a very personal way mostly through practice, then through checking my experience against credible teachings, and the feedback from my teachers. And my answers may not suit others, but they work for me. We may all look similar waving our arms but the inner process and experience, the understanding and realization are a very personal matter, IMO.

Some say all Boop!

And clutter Buddhist threads on lots of sites!

I hear a voice!

Great discussion! I really appreciate the differing perspectives and passionate sharing. I have a deep and abiding respect for lineage and tradition, particularly in martial and spiritual disciplines. I also acknowledge tradition and lineage can perpetuate very negative patterns - paternalism, systematic abuse, intolerance, and others. Similarly, I have a deep respect for those who choose an individual path and follow their heart. It's a difficult path filled with trial and error and can lead some far astray. For others, it's precisely what is needed. It's interesting when you look at what actually leads to our successes and failures. One can spend a lifetime in dedicated practice with expert guidance and never experience what they're looking for, be it martial mastery or an awakening experience. Another can be awakened in the flash of an eye with no guidance or lineage whatsoever, or take to a martial practice as if they were born with the skill... I've been on both paths at different times in my life. Currently I enjoy the support of a traditional lineage and teacher, although my teacher is quite progressive and has been criticized by more orthodox teachers of his lineage. Sometimes the tradition can get in the way when the mind gets too attached to an expectation or a rule. A few months back I was in a bit of a rut in my practice and ability to connect and one night I looked up and there was the Moon. Full and beautiful, surrounded by a halo of rainbow light much like is described surrounding the figure with which we practice guru yoga in my tradition. She opened my heart and flooded me with presence, with simple being and direct connection. It reinvigorated my practice and reminded me of the simplicity and effortlessness of connection to the source. I hope that once we get our opinions out there, we can ultimately allow each other to tread our paths and be here to support each other at least as much as we tend to criticize. At the end of the day we're simply a few smart animals daily getting closer to death trying to make some sense of things and making the most out of our circumstances. My love and respect to everyone here, _/\_

Is anyone here still able to split threads? Dwai? While I think the two different discussions going on here are valid and have value, the mash-up is a mess. Are the engaged parties here willing to start a separate thread to keep the two discussions going independently?

Great stuff, thanks for posting this walker. I began naturally doing this when I was into regular IMA training. Never did it for more than 15-20 minutes. I'll definitely try it for longer and see the effects. Thanks again

I suspect our practices are similar, if not identical. The primary (sole) reason for all the "stuff" in our tradition is to make sure we're in the right place. It is so easy for the mind to have us convinced that we are when we're not...

The answers to these questions have been the subject of every dzogchen tantra, teaching, and book throughout history. Two seemingly frivolous but completely accurate answers are: "What exactly does that mean?" It is beyond meaning "How does one do it?" One does not do it, it is a "non-doing." That said, I'll share a brief personal impression of the meaning and practice. Caveat - I'm not a master, only scratching the surface but it has changed my life profoundly for the better. In the Bön dzogchen tradition, there's a teaching known as the 21 Nails which are 21 different aspects or characteristics of the Nature of Mind to help us recognize it, distinguish it from mind, and develop complete confidence in our understanding or, more accurately, the View. The first of the nails lists specific characteristics of the mind and it's Nature or essence. There are English translations available - I would recommend this one if you are interested. Warning, they can be fairly difficult to understand and attending a teaching with a master is highly recommended. One way to think about it is with the analogy of water. Water takes many different forms - oceans, rivers, waves, streams, rain, saliva, blood, etc... All of these forms have very specific characteristics and properties but the nature or essence of each is always water. Similarly, the mind can take many different forms - thoughts, emotions, images, visions, memories, etc... even all of "external" reality in the Bön and Buddhist paradigms. All have specific characteristics but the nature or essence that underlies and connects all of the them is referred to as the Nature of Mind. The Nature of Mind is not the mind's content, it's not the thinker, it's not the perspective, it's not the person, not even the sense of self. It is considered to be all there is and yet it is completely empty, clear, usually undetectable except through its manifestations. The Nature of Mind is clear and pure, unchangeable, pervasive, and we can throw lots of other adjectives at it. It is unimputable. It is often referred to as being like space but a very special type of space, space that is self-aware. The defining characteristics are that it is empty (or open, or spacious), it is self-aware (or clear), and it has infinite potential - it can give rise to absolutely anything and everything we can experience. Resting in the Nature of Mind is essentially resting in a non-dual experience. We can experience it but to the extent that "we" are present (eg there is a distinction between the experience and the one having that experience) during that experience, it is elusive. The practice is particularly tricky because to rest in the Nature of Mind means that we cannot add anything, subtract anything, do anything, try anything. Any effort introduced takes us farther, not closer. It is similar to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, the very presence of the observer influences that which is observed. So the approach here is to release the observer, release all effort, and simply leave everything just as it is. In the Bön tradition, the Nature of Mind is most often introduced using a practice known as zhine (calm-abiding). The practitioner sits quiety and stares at an object of meditation, usually the Tibetan letter A. In the beginning it is a very effortful practice. We start without blinking, without moving, without swallowing saliva... absolutely still. It's tough. Over time we can easy up on the effort as it becomes easier for us. Eventually it is completely effortless. This does two important things - it allows us to get some degree of control of the mind that never rests and it allows us to look at that mind and get a glimpse of what it's all about. We actually look at the one who is looking and see if we can find anything tangible there. At this point in the training, one receives "pointing out" instructions from a master. This basically means that one describes their experience and the master "points to" the distinction between mind and its Nature, leading the student to develop a high degree of confidence in being able to make that distinction. Once we are confident that we know what the Nature of Mind is and what it isn't, we develop familiarity with it through seated meditation without an object. Once we are stable enough we can begin resting into this Nature off the cushion in our daily lives. Eventually, masters are able to rest in this Nature undisturbed by anything that occurs throughout the day and night and even during the process of dying. That's the path in a nutshell. All this may sound complicated and challenging but there are more accessible ways to try and approach this. My teacher created a practice in which he distilled the essence of this path into a very simple practice called the 3 Doors. The Doors are not the Nature of Mind but they are a way to access that Nature. The first door is to rest in the stillness of the body. The second is to rest in the silence of speech (eg the inner narrator). The third is to rest in the spaciousness of the heart/mind. If this appeals to you, I'd suggest you check out the 3 Doors practices of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. A great starting point is his book, Awakening the Luminous Mind. It teaches the 3 Doors in the first half of the book and the practice ilumairen posted, the Fivefold Teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen, in the second half of the book. Cheers!

There's quite a bit to investigate, I suggest searching through Google scholar. Here is one example - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879457/

Resting in the Nature of Mind