doc benway

I would say that all properly done qigong is spiritual. If you are bringing clear attention to the body, breath, and mind you are attending to the spirit, cultivating a deeper and purer connection to the source. You can also bring different intent to the practice, eg martial or healing, and one can be careless and distracted, in which case spirituality is abandoned. Telepathy comes from listening deeply and with enough openness and sensitivity. I think there’s also a component of proclivity or blessing when it comes to telepathy.

I did get your implication. My peace is not disturbed by this thread. I have no interest in stifling expression. Everything that can be said about Mo Pai, good and bad, has been rehashed on this website in innumerable threads over the past decade. None of that has changed the tenor and content of this debate one iota. I'm simply suggesting that continued discussion of the topic with its adherents is futile. They have amply demonstrated they are immune to rational thought and common sense when it comes to the topic. Minimizing is intended with respect to this specific subject matter. If not for debate here, I wonder how much attention it gets anywhere? We are keeping it alive with this very thread. I believe the number of people who actually commit to the practice is quite small. I do not think they are growing. Otherwise they would not continuously return here and maintain a presence despite the hostility. This is probably the only place they have any success recruiting. It does not take 55 pages to discuss the risks of their training fragments. All it would take is a pinned FAQ and the occasional response to unsubstantiated claims. That said, if y'all want to continue the discussion and arguments in perpetuity here, I sincerely hope it brings some sort of fruition. I'm just raising the possibility that there may be more valuable and productive discussion to be had with the DaoBums than Mo Pai. Peace

Roger that No Yes, all I have to offer is my assessment. Take it or leave it. I've seen this dynamic play out with the Mo Pai folks many times. Always the same. Interesting to equate this with childhood experiences of abuse. I guess anything can become a touchstone for deep reactivity. Very true Yes, wasting my time apparently. I started, erased, and reworded my post a few times over the past few days... weeks? before finally posting. I think it's like Taomeow pointed out to me once, I have this thing where I try to protect people. I guess we each need to dance our little dance... Here's mine

Sorry if I annoy anyone with my comments but this is ridiculous. If there's anything at DaoBums less worthy of a practitioner's time and energy than arguing about Mo Pai, I don't know what that would look like. Sean intervened with the political threads because the subject matter has actual impact on the lives of people. Mo Pai is irrelevant to the lives of everyone but the handful of folks who choose to practice its 2 introductory levels. It is of no consequence whatsoever to anyone else on Earth. I suspect Sean chooses not to bother with this thread, other than to maybe check what page it's up to and chuckle once in a while. No one every learns anything or changes their opinions regarding Mo Pai. The only possible personal growth that could come out of this 55 page argument would be if someone could actually let go and move on, never returning to this pointless exercise. The only value to this thread is to see how much time and energy people, who consider themselves practitioners, are willing to invest in beating the dusty, powdered bones of a long dead horse's corpse. Life is short, does anyone really need to spend precious seconds, minutes, and hours in this endless discussion? The Mo Pai crew are clearly not ready to give up on their dreams and no one else is likely to ever understand their obsession with a few fragments of what may be a useful a system... This is not about Sean. It's about those who can't let go of a dead and pointless argument. It's about looking at ourselves and our choices in life as reflected in our behavior here.

Something also to keep in mind is that while reading about Buddhism will give you knowledge about the subject, some meditation experience is the most direct way to taste the actual meaning, IMO.

Humanity closely mimics a malignant tumor to me in so many ways. As we get more populous, conflict is inevitable. We even love killing each other when population is sparse We are killing off so many other life forms, including ourselves. It breaks my heart and yet there's a farcical side. I am trying to live fully, love as much as possible, relish the freedom and peace I currently live in, and cry sometimes. Not sure what else to say. Oh yea, VOTE and FUCK TRUMP

It's easiest for most people to recognize the meaning of meditation when the body, speech, and mind are quiet. Otherwise, it is too subtle to notice and literally everything is a distraction. You can stand in one place or sit in any stable and comfortable position (floor, meditation cushion, chair, toilet, couch, bed, whatever)... There will be some aches and pains, it's not a gimme... It takes adjustment, tolerance, openness, and fortitude. Mind doesn't want to release control, body is not used to so much attention, inner voices are relentless... When you find the right way of resting the mind and body you will identify less with the currents and more with the underlying, stable presence.Then with practice, we can be stable with any activity. The teachings say to start practicing with supportive activity (prayer, mantra, circumambulation...), then progress to neutral activity (walking, eating), and finally challenging activity (extreme emotion, conflict...). Start easy when your ability to rest in authentic presence is like a small candle. Challenge yourself gradually and eventually your presence is like a campfire and ultimately a bonfire, fed by the challenges of life. You can even reach a point where practice continues in dream and deep sleep - eventually into death. Most important, start with an accessible and proven method and the support of a credible teacher and loving community. And remember, life is very short; we don't have too much time to fuck around.

Or to criticize... Fortunately, IMO, Max seems to elicit little discussion anymore.

l Hi Nicole, No, we did not get into any discussion on the significance of the mountain range itself or the associated deities. I was told that the practices originated in the Kunlun region. The name of the system translates to something like 'In the Footsteps of the Kunlun Immortals' school. Beyond that my instruction was all about practice and experience with very little attention to theory. PS - Ralis - this system has nothing to do with Max Christensen.

Happy New Year Nicole! I received training in a Daoist system known as Kunlun Xian Zong Pai. My teacher is from Taiwan where he studied with Master Liu Pei Zhong. Master Liu passed away around 1977 but his temple is still on Taiwan and I believe there is still an active community of practitioners there. The temple is called JIng Xiu Gong 靜修宮 Here is a link to some photos of the temple - https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x3442ac16de50a2f7:0x4d1e3b254932c36a!3m1!7e115!4shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipN2rzAFnv129W3Dz5puE4X7AUj0AqkZVOzw3Nd0%3Dw426-h320-k-no!5s静俢宮+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipN2rzAFnv129W3Dz5puE4X7AUj0AqkZVOzw3Nd0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiHs57B8-LmAhWjtVkKHeYqCw4QoiowCnoECBcQBg

I have adopted this instruction - absorb what is useful and discard what is not. I find it valid from the perspective of my Daoist training, martial arts training, as well as my Bön Buddhist training. Lineage holders from each of these disciplines have taught me this way and it has served me well. On the other hand, I wouldn't say this is the "true heart of Daoism in a nutshell.' For me, it is simply a useful instruction in how to learn and how best to apply ourselves to spiritual and martial training. Nevertheless, I can see how others might hold to this as a fundamental principle. Two things I would offer that, for me, are a fundamental truth or heart of practice are emptiness and openness. In Daoist praxis this is wu wei which I like to define as non-interference; in Buddhism it is emptiness or sunyata, the recognition of the basis. A corollary is openness or clarity, meaning to maintain direct connection; Daoist practitioners might refer to this as ting, listening. I have found both of these experiential principles to be equally fundamental and relevant to Daoist cultivation, martial arts (internal arts in particular), and Buddhism.

Precisely If you practice skillfully, and for long enough, you will have all sorts of experience, both good and bad. There will comfort, discomfort, pain, bliss, fear, boredom, excitement, physical movements, emotional release... no limit to the types of experience that may arise. Getting too focused or analytical with any experience is an obstacle. Everything needs space to arise and move through you. Leave it all just as it is. Add nothing, suppress nothing, but fully experience everything with openness and most important of all, be kind to yourself. When the really big stuff happens, it will be clear.

I find that the biggest obstacle to developing a relationship with Qi is expectation. We bring so much baggage to the equation - our personal bias, our interpretation of literature and scripture, our hopes, the ideas of others... All of this drowns out the subtle whisper of direct experience. Any pain usually comes from excessive effort, from forcing. Connecting with the flow of Qi is like listening to silence. Sounds get our attention easily, we’re used to that type of focus. We’re not used to connecting to silence, it’s a different kind of focus. The best advice I can give to anyone struggling with a connection to Qi is to be quiet, open, and leave all preconceptions and expectations behind. If you have the good fortune to connect with a credible teacher, trust the practice and try to lessen dependence on the conceptual mind. Good luck!

In the Bön Dzogchen tradition, the way of "developing" intuition is by gradually releasing our habitual over-identification with body, speech, and mind through meditation. As all of the distractions subside, everything we need is already there. In reality, we develop or create nothing, we simply open to the deep inner source of all insight and creativity. A very accessible resource for this is the book Spontaneous Creativity by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.

Anyone interested in forgiveness should check out Aamir Kahn’s film Rubaru Roshni.

No need to feel ashamed. No need to panic. The dan tians are conceptual, energetic structures. They do not tear or fracture. Yes, very likely If you are truly interested in Daoist cultivation, it is necessary to have an experienced teacher with a credible lineage. Books and anonymous participants in online fora are of little value.

Congratulations Dwai! I will definitely buy a copy of your book.

Present situation excepted (it's a little too confusing), I'd like to say that I think I get what Sean is doing here and (more or less) why. I deeply appreciate his commitment to championing basic human rights and values in his moderation choices. I also appreciate him managing this space solo... it's not a trivial task. Thanks Sean, Welcome back Anand Love to the rest of my friends here!

Hi illumairen and chaugnar, I haven't read this thread but can recommend the teachings of two masters that help bridge the gap between Christianity and other traditions, particularly Asian, at least for me. Anthony Demello was an enlightened master, Jesuit, raised Hindu, and trained psychologist. To show just how deep he was, all of his writings were banned as heresy by Joseph Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI. Demello's book Awareness is a favorite, as a collection of his talks called Wake Up to Life (of which Awareness is an exerpt). Both changed my life. John O'Donohue was a priest who left the order to return to Celtic roots and dove into spirituality through deeply personal teachings and wonderfully evocative poetry. Anam Cara and Wisdom of the Celtic World are fine examples of his teachings and art. There are others but these are my two favorites. A few quotes: “As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is beyond that. … That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life… Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes no sense to the conceptualizing mind.”― Anthony de Mello "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." ---- John O'Donohue

Part of my practice and view is here - Vision is mind - my life experience is my own creation. Five lines, if understood, take me directly from anger to non-dual bliss. Why not choose to chill?

As is often the case, Yueya has summarized the issues in a way that is clear, concise, and useful in terms of practical application. Thank you!

You? Ridiculous!

I rarely read more than a few words of Everything's posts, unless they're uncharacteristically short. I do read little snippets when others quote him. I simply don't have the time or patience to slog through his train of thought posts, they're a bit like reading Faulkner - probably full of good stuff but too long and rambling to be accessible to me. That said, I feel no drive to request he be banned. I am free to block him or simply skip his posts. I don't feel threatened by him nor do I feel he has any major negative influence on the board. Just my $.02... Peace

I agree with you about the teachings. The teachings of Dzogchen, in my experience, are not so much to show us what it is but rather to point out how we block it, our misconceptions. Even our experience of things like rigpa or spaciousness are not so much an experience of what it is but rather an experience of the release of something that was obstructing us, if that makes any sense. They do sometimes offer examples and point out signs of realization to help measure our progress. These examples are not so much to try and capture it in concept or words but rather to highlight a particular characteristic usually obscured by our ignorance - ma rigpa, not knowing. Some of the common examples used to help point out the Natural State are - - a mirror: just like a mirror can reflect any appearance without being altered in any way, nothing that we experience in our lives can change or alter the Nature of Mind in any way. Who we are is more like the mirror and less like the appearances. - the sky: our Nature of Mind is without any boundary, fully open, no definable center or perspective, no edge. Nothing can stain it, it holds on t nothing. - a candle: our Nature is self illuminating, self sustaining, the light of knowing eliminates the darkness of ignorance, a candle illuminates itself and all around it. And there are lots more like this. In the Dzogchen teachings I've received it's nearly always about the personal aspect of realization, rarely attempting to define reality from a metaphysical or phenomenal perspective. All of that is done in the sutric teachings of Buddhism. Trying to learn through the conceptual mind separates us from truth more than it brings us closer, from the Dzogchen perspective. Simply resting the mind is the only thing that brings us closer. I find rigpa to be over emphasized in discussions and even teachings on Dzogchen. So many people seem to be too attached to "understanding" it and the result is to objectify it. It is one of three aspects of what we call Nature or the Nature of Mind or the Natural State. It's the aspect that is not ignorant. It is the Self-Aware aspect that knows the truth, that knows itself, that sees itself. It is the opposite of ma-rigpa which means ignorance, not knowing our Natural State. We can speak of it from our personal perspective, which is never fully separate from our relative reality which is anchored to this body and this life. We can also speak of it from it's own perspective which transcends individual lives and minds. This is the basis for different "levels" - there are no levels, that is very misleading IMO. Rigpa simply means Knowing and in a Dzogchen context, that Knowing is very specific it is knowing one's true nature, the Natural State. Another characteristic of the Natural State which is equally important and never separate from the Knowing aspect, is Emptiness. My teacher prefers words like Space and Spaciousness because the English word Emptiness often leads people to a nihilistic view. The Empty aspect refers to the realization that the "I" that we equate with who we are is fictitious, it is a mental construct. When we see through it, when it no longer is the insidious and pervasive controller of our lives, we have realized Emptiness. We are Empty of the false sense of self with which we identify and develop a relationship, an identity, that is anchored in the Natural State. Not only are we Empty of a limited, defined self; all things and all beings are equally Empty, even the Natural State itself. The realization of this is nothing more or less than a true realization of non-duality. The third aspect of Nature is referred to as Union or Tsal - energy. The Empty aspect is never separate from the Self-Knowing (rigpa) aspect and this is known as Union. Realization of this Union allows us to be in a state which I think is essentially equivalent to Wu Wei - non-interference. The illusory "I" does not get in the way. This allows the infinite potential of us as humans, as the conduit of a much deeper and more subtle intelligence unfettered by the limited mind, to emerge. This is the source of the term Dzogchen - everything needed is already there, the enlightened qualities are already perfected, we simply need to get out of the way. We do not create, induce, or even facilitate, we just get out of the way without losing connection. In that space, anything and everything is possible, effortlessly. I don't mean to sound overly pedantic but felt like sharing more than my earlier response to the OP. I also wonder if my words are of any value. It's so easy to talk the talk but what we need is to actually do the work of doing nothing at all and see what all these words are pointing at. The experience will bring confidence and confidence will bring stability. Then we need to integrate that into everything in our lives. Well said 'If you want to know the truth of something, be neither for nor against.' I like that and would add... 'simply leave it as it is.' Comparing all of this to the even more complex architecture of the Daoist view inevitably gets us deeper and deeper into the analytical space of mind. I think Taomeow's quotation regarding Yuan Shen is very helpful to see what aspects of reality those two words are chosen to represent. There is much overlap between the Buddhist and Daost paradigms, particularly when we whittle away the details and get more and more to looking at the moon rather than the fingers which point to it. But I would advise caution in seeking to equate concepts and labels in Buddhism and Daoism. When you experience what each are guiding us to and truly see the parallels and equivalence from the perspective of the absolute (non-duality), then it is easy to talk about how they are alike and how they differ. Until then, I question the value and accuracy of such comparisons. If you know a little about music and musical notation, this analogy may be useful. Music can be represented by different forms of notation - standard notation, tablature, MIDI, graphical representations, hand positions, etc... We can study a piece of music through analyzing all of the different forms of notation, we can study the composer, the historical context, all of that. And no matter how deeply we understand all of that, it will never be the same as simply listening to and hearing the music. I hope everyone enjoys the glorious weekend!