doc benway

Greetings Friends, The moderation team is committed to minimizing censorship and promoting a wide range of discussion here. We are not the arbiters of truth and do not have the time or expertise to vet technical claims and official narrative, or define what constitutes "conspiracy theory." We are here to facilitate civil debate and discussion on a wide range of topics. The primary mission of this site to host discussion related to Eastern spirituality. While the emotional challenges associated with current events can be a wonderful opportunity to engage in one's own personal and spiritual practice, more often such discussions deteriorate into argument. This has been having a negative effect on the board from a content and energetic perspective for several years now, understandably exacerbated by a global pandemic. While we don't want to ban discussion of important topics, we don't want the inevitable argumentation to drown out the board's primary focus, Eastern spirituality and personal development. Consequently, we have decided to create a new sub-forum in The Rabbit Hole labeled Current Events. This will be a private forum, viewable only by members in good standing who request access. All Covid, political, and other current events type threads not in PPDs will be moved there shortly. All future threads on Covid and current events of all types will be hosted in Current Events. Such discussions will also be permitted in PPDs. Current Events will also be an area the mods can use to sequester other contentious threads. Members that are drawn to such topics are invited to request access to use this private sub-forum, or PPD, provided they do so with mutual respect. Please note that all forum rules will apply. Those who come here to focus on spiritual dialogue and prefer to avoid the current events should find it a bit easier to do so by simply not requesting permission to access. In order to request access to this new Current Events café, please post a request for access here or send me a request by private message. You will need to have a post count of at least 50 to be granted access. It will take some time to migrate the threads, grant permissions, and workout any kinks that may arise so please be patient. We sincerely hope this small adjustment will facilitate productive discussion in a way that is supportive to as many members as possible. Thank you for your cooperation!

Perhaps the most concise definition of religion I’ve read.

I’ll get a little crazy and combine and continue the thread: nothing can compare to the pleasure of hugging my guns, and my cats

blessed sanity has drown’d herself in the Gulf of Amerika

Seems to be a little better for me today.

Another consideration regarding secrecy I'd like to share is an extension of a point in my earlier post, fwiw. In the Tibetan tradition, one which did keep the "highest" teachings hidden for millennia, enlightenment is far more than the realization of the non-dual nature of being. That very realization can be a trap, which I think is one reason for the secrecy. Such a realization is important but it is simply a drawing back of the curtain, a human experience of the dropping of an obscuration or delusion, albeit an important one; a glimpse of the real potential of enlightenment but not the full fruition. This is the place where a lot of practitioners get stuck because it gives one the impression that there is nothing left to do. The truth is that there is everything left to do, meaning that in this particular tradition, from the moment of realization, each and every action in one's life has the possibility of being a manifestation of enlightened heart and mind, here and now, in human form. The proof in the pudding is do we, and those around us, see that happening moment to moment in our lives? Each and every action can be an embodiment of the four immeasurable qualities of empathetic joy, equanimity, compassion, and loving-kindness. This is the fruition of the Three Bodies - the body of emptiness, the body of perfection, and the body of emanation. Realization of our empty yet complete nature of Being is fulfillment of the first, maybe the second of those bodies; but we need to discover the means to bring these qualities into our lives through our relationship to others, that's the third body, the aspect of emanation. My teacher emphasizes exercising this "muscle" through acts of service to others and through channeling our connection to the source through creative expression. These are ways to see if the realization is sound and fruition is actually occurring. Enlightenment is not an on off switch, not a simple change in perspective in my view. At best that can be considered realization. It is an ongoing process that becomes the basis for how we live our lives. Only when these four immeasurable qualities are spontaneously and effortlessly occurring, and affecting those around us in a meaningful way, can we be considered to be on a path to Enlightenment. At least that's my admittedly flawed interpretation of what is taught by the Tibetan tradition.

I suspect it's similar to our limited understanding of gravity. We can't figure it out so we had a fudge factor, like dark matter/energy, that makes the equations work. I suspect everything is there serving a purpose we are yet to understand or discover.

Major problems for me, only occasionally able to log on and the Jeopardy theme plays during every change of page...

Now THAT’s the way to welcome the year of the snake!

tumble in the void kno way to apprehend true orientation

whistling a bit of shrapnel shatters stone and bone memory denied

Laozi says When a wise person hears of the Way He devotes himself fully. When an average person hears of the Way He tries to understand but doubts. When a fool hears of the Way He laughs out loud! Ha! When I first heard of the way I laughed, But when I saw it with my bones, I laughed even louder! In the first case I laughed at the simplicity of it all. How could it be so obvious? Ha! In the second, I laughed at the simplicity of it all. How could I have been so oblivious? Ah… ha… ha.. ha! I continue to laugh Not at the Way, but At the effort of the wise At the doubt of the middlings And most of all at “My” “Self"

There's a two-fold meaning to that line for me - When hearing a description of the Way, it sounds so ridiculously simple as to be a cause for laughter. When actually having a direct experience, it is so ridiculously simple and obvious as to be a cause for laughter. The former laughter is incredulous and easily shrugged off, the latter is joyous and exuberant and, to some degree, lasts a lifetime.

Thanks are owed to Dwai, Liminal Luke, and his partner José who have been working on this in the background for a few weeks. Thank you all! I have been having great difficulties accessing the site of late and this has reminded me how much our little community of strange and wonderful bums means to me. May the year of the Wood Snake be a year of growth and good fortune for all!

I think this is an important topic and I've stumbled across what I think are several reasons why over the past decade. One was explored a bit in the recent thread on Integration vs Transcendence. Dzogchen, being a very direct approach, can lead to profound insight and realization in a short time, sometimes without very much in the way of preparation and purification. This can result in the misguided impression that one is enlightened. This is problematic because it leads to spiritual bypassing. People talking the talk but causing damage around them. I think this is one of the reasons why we see so many "crazy wisdom" yogis engaging in sexual impropriety and abuse. A cautionary pith instruction in Bön is that 'the view is as expansive as the sky but the conduct as fine as barley flour.' Even after profound realization has altered our perception and relationship to reality, we can still generate negative karma and must be mindful of how our words and actions affect others. Another reason for secrecy is the precision required in cementing the correct view. Miss by a mm and you miss by a km. It is extremely easy to convince yourself that you have the correct view, meditation, and behavior and go for months or years down a detour. The mind offers so many layers of identification that become ever more subtle and easy to miss, and even the best teacher on Earth cannot guarantee or be absolutely certain that you've got it right. Each practitioner must recognize and develop certainty for themselves. Consequently, this type of method has been traditionally taught in very small groups, often one on one, making it possible to only offer teachings to those considered most well-prepared and ripe. The karmic consequences of causing harm through offering the teachings to unsuitable candidates are considered very severe among traditionalists, so teachers have been reticent to offer them easily or on a large-scale basis. Having attended quite a few retreats, I've seen the reactivity that often occurs when people try to process ramifications of the direct teachings. For example, one thing that generally comes up at some point is that one can generate no negative karma while resting in the nature of mind. So incredulous participants who have not yet fully grasped the view dream up all sorts of heinous acts and can get quite upset trying to wrestle with the idea of what it means to engage in various activities from the view. This leads to anger, frustration, disappointment, even abandoning of the teachings altogether, a terrible karmic consequence for teacher and student alike. Another problem I've seen is the zeal that often arises with a taste of the view and fruition. People want to share this amazing gift with others. One problem is that while they may have some degree of direct experience, they really have not stabilized or familiarized themselves enough to guide others properly. Even if they do help others to get a taste, they don't have the tools to deal with the obstacles and aberrations that can arise, both in themselves and others. One recent and prominent example of this is Michael Singer's own encounter with a health crisis which undermined his confidence in his path for a time. Hobbyists and non-dual teachers without the background and support of lineage may not have the tools to deal with crises. More on that can be found in this thread. One frequent negative consequence of these types of non-dual practice is the nihilistic crisis. A big part of the process is dis-identifying with everything we have considered to be our "self." This can leave us adrift and unsupported. It's something that can lead to the occasional psychotic break, major depression, or depersonalization disorder, even suicide. These are some of the reasons for secrecy that occur to me now. I believe there have been others that I can't access at the moment.

Fight the good fight buddy!

Certainly it does, if you are open to a new way of looking and are willing to put some calluses on your bottom. Idealism and reality can and do coexist. One can hold fast to ideals and allow them to guide one's life and still do what is necessary, even if it is in conflict with those ideals, when it is the best choice given the circumstances. No one is perfect. They cut through your own obstacles and obscurations. They destroy your own delusion of being an independently existing self. Of course, to the uninitiated they can seem to be dealing with external forces but the practitioner knows it is all about their own mind. Daoism doesn't really teach that there are external evil forces in the world, does it? It is more about misguided human action leading to imbalance and impeding the Way. The sage recognizes this and finds the balance between good and evil in their actions. Fighting when necessary and appropriate does not mean that one cannot wish, pray, dedicate, and work for the benefit of all living beings. Sometimes fighting is the best and only option. Sometimes a limb has to be cut off to treat a cancer or gangrene. The Tibetan Dob-dobs were fierce warriors, as were the Sohei of Japan, Sikhs of Punjab, Shaolin monks, etc... Nowhere in the OP or linked page does it advocate for absolute non-violence. The messages here go much deeper than that.

If you aren't willing to read the context he already provided, your criticism doesn't merit a reply... The best reply to unwarranted criticism is often none, allowing space to host the critic's words so they can be felt and heard. Sometimes the critic will recognize the inappropriate or unnecessary nature of their comments. Sometimes not. You don't need to click on the link, you could simply search or type into your browser. It's actually a nice discussion, worth a few minutes of your time if you have interest in the subject. In case you aren't willing to exert the effort, I've copied the page for you below.

The link he shared gives plenty of context.

Very little, software has needed updating for years. It was always above my pay grade and comfort level. Sorry y'all Present admin could perhaps take the initiative to update the software if they are feeling ballsy and capable. @sean has been absent for a long time. The worst he could do is ban a few of us or shut the site down...

Wishing all of you good folks a peaceful and prosperous new year!

Wishing all of you good folks a peaceful and prosperous new year! https://ravencypresswood.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/wood-snake-2025-wtrmk.jpg

Indeed, but for me, at least, he has a tendency to show up like the Spanish Inquisition…

I’ll check your reference, thanks!

I used to regard the adage, "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water" to refer to the fact that our mundane activity precedes and succeeds enlightenment and requires and is worthy of our acknowledgment and attention; though our relationship to the activity, and to the one engaging in it, has changed. In the context of our discussion here, I also think it means that irrespective of our enlightening and awakening experiences, we continue to do the inner work that is needed with whatever tools are effective and at our disposal. As my teacher has said, in the context of when supplementary practices are needed by a dzogchenpa , 'when someone is present, practice is needed, when no-one is present, leave it as it is'