doc benway

Is this beautiful to you?

If not, what is?

 

 

On 9/15/2024 at 11:46 AM, ChiDragon said:

I think all the system do Fajin the same way. Would you like to going into that?

 

Sure, what makes you think “all the systems do Fajin the same way?”

In my experience, while there are definitely important similarities, different systems emphasize different training methods and techniques which lead to different expressions of fajin. 

25 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Another reason why Taiji Fajin is unique is because a specific name was given to each technique. However, the others do not.

 

I guess you are not very familiar with xingyiquan. Each technique has a name and an association with one of the five elements or twelve animals…

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Fajin, in the Taijiquan, is unique is because the practitioner do not punch the opponent with the hands. They push the opponent away only. All the others use fajin with their fist to hurt someone by punching. Hence, that is why Taiji is unique.

 

I guess all of the punches in the solo forms and 2 person sets are simply training tools and we’re not allowed to use those in a fight. 

Interesting point of view.

 

15 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

However, I do agree the others do Fajin.

 

This means it is not unique  to taijiquan.. at least that is how I use the word unique. 

43 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

@doc benway

Hmmm...

Without trying,

don't you think this might be a hasty assumption!

 

PS

People acquired Jin from practice don't need to understand how it was acquired or explain it.

 

Agreed, we just need to practice really, not worry so much about the theory, whether it be ATP or force vectors.

But in some sense we do need to understand how it is acquired (eg how to practice properly) and how to explain it (the practice).

This is why I don't think it's necessary to worry about magic.

We do the practice, we see the effects.

It does not violate any laws of physics although sometimes it can be shockingly effective.

More often than not that is a consequence of the perfection of timing, targeting, and taking advantage of the opponent's vulnerability. 

 

I once had a student ask me to demonstrate fajin after class.

I did ji at maybe 25% of what I thought would be full power and knocked him back about six feet onto his back.

I hit him harder than I expected although he was fine and really appreciated the experience. 

Part of it was that I was on the spot in front of a class - that gets the juices flowing...

Feeling it is critical to learning what it's really all about and what direction to take your training. 

One method my teacher recommended is to line the walls of a small room with mattresses and practice on each other. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I do not agree with the former that fajin is not unique to Taijjquan. I believe that Fajin was greatly emphasized in Taijiquan as oppose to the other arts you had mentioned. However, I do agree the others do Fajin.

 

So we agree, fajin is not unique to taijiquan. 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

By definition, Fajin is to exert the maximum force that the body can be generated. That was developed by different forms of exercise from slow to moderate speed. These forms, xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang are done at moderate speed which have the same effect to develop Jin in the body. In fact, Bruce Lee, gave up Taiji and went into Wing Chun. He developed his strength by external practice (Waigong, 外功) . He used weights to train his muscles and used electrical current to stimulate his muscle. All his movements are at fast speed which consumes a lot of his body energy. To avoid wasting his energy, so, he invented his own style called 截拳道 (Jeet Kune Do) which implies with the notion of: anticipate the attack before the opponent initiate the strike. We can see that Bruce Lee always so relax by doing the cha cha moves by jumping back and forth. When he saw the opponent is about to initiate a strike, he moved so swiftly to knock out the opponent. Thu the opponent didn't even know where the strike was coming from or what hit him. The reason I said him is no offense to the ladies. It is because Bruce Lee never hit a woman.
 

I only see that Wing Chun does not develop Jin in the group of training.

 

Wing chun training does develop jin. 

At least I learned such methods. I studied with a student of William Cheung, Bruce Lee's kung fu brother.

There may be lineages who don't share that part. Some can be secretive. 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Standing gives the leverage for the body to Fajin rather than developing Fajin. BTW Fajin is an execution to exert an immense fore.

 

Standing is necessary to cultivate 鬆

I'm not referring to leverage, I'm referring to the mind-body connection that allows us to cultivate a solid and powerful structure with minimal stiffness and maximum fluidity and responsiveness. You can feel this when pushing hands with someone who stands a lot. You can also feel it when receiving a strike or block from a xingyi or bagua practitioner. Fajin isn't only immense, it is also explosive.

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, sticking-hand and so on are the techniques developed from push-hand that was  practiced by Taiji practitioners.

 

Yes, pushing hands is one way to practice these skills but they also develop from sensitivity and song. 

We also practice these in san da drills. There are analgous jin in xinigyi and bagua as well as yiquan. 

They take different forms, eg xingyi animal forms, bagua palm changes, etc...

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, exactly same as above. Those skills are from the practice of push-hand.

 

Yes, also from circle walking, palm changes, two person partner drills in taiji, xingyi, and bagua, sticking hands in wing chun, standing postures, etc... 

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, breathing and movements are become natural instinct that give the fast reflex of the body to move swiftly. The practitioner didn't even have to think about the next move.

 

Agreed

 

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I agree. Beginners, especially, should not pay too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. The breathing will become natural for someone who is mastered of the art.

 

 

Interesting to read this discussion of fajin.

One thing worth mentioning is that fajin is not unique to taijiquan.

It is a core technique in xingyiquan, yiquan, bajiquan, liuhebafa, baguazhang, and even wing chun. 

Slow motion forms are primarily found in taijiquan.

On the other hand, each of these arts places emphasis, to varying degrees, on standing meditation of one sort or another.

I haven't studied all of the above arts but I have trained in taiji, xingyi, bagua, and wing chun. 

In my own experience, standing is one of the most important ingredients in developing fajin, as well as other jin, eg. coiling, pushing, folding, hidden, wave, revolving, and so on. It seems this is because standing cultivates song, a strong yet flexible and responsive structure along with mind-body integration.

Standing can also be a wonderful method of healing the body.

In my experience, the power of fajin comes from the proper development of the body, listening and sensing skills, timing, whole body coordination through the waist and kua, rooting skill, and perhaps most of all, awareness, which underlies all of the above. Of course breathing is important but once one develops proper breathing habits, the breath should be forgotten, eg. allowed to breath itself. As important as breathing is, too much attention to it can be limiting or a distraction. In my opinion and experience, there is nothing magical about jin, nothing that can't be explained by physics and careful observation. The most difficult part is having the patience and persistence in practice as there are no short cuts. 

 

My general approach is to be quiet and listen for a while. 

I truly want to understand others' perspectives.

If I think it is worthwhile, eg they are interested and willing to listen, then I'll present my perspective. 

If I don't think they're really interested in hearing and considering an alternative position I will usually disengage. 

I have no interest in escalating. 

Opinions just aren't that important.

On 9/13/2024 at 10:31 AM, Lukks said:

I was thinking about starting with something like spontaneous qigong, that would be wild

 

While I don't want to discourage you, I would not recommend starting with something like spontaneous qigong.

Practices that are rooted in spontaneity are the most vulnerable to our feelings of self-consciousness and to distraction. 

For true spontaneous movement to express itself the mind needs to be calm and comfortable, resting, alert, and very open.

The one technique my internal martial arts teacher suggested I always do in private was a spontaneous movement practice.

While I've played around with it a bit in public, on the beach, it is indeed difficult to really let go and be fully open and sensitive in such circumstances, at least for me. I think it's better to focus on a set pattern of movement as an anchor to the attention when the surroundings have a tendency to distract.

On 5/5/2024 at 9:29 AM, Elysium said:

Ladies and gentleman and myriad of all kinds of beings, I am assuming there are a lot of you who are practicing a martial art.

 

So I am wondering if I may hear your story? Which are do you hail from? How long has your journey been? How many arts have you gone through?

 

That being said I am not interested in "my art is better than you" or "this won't work in streets" business, and I sure hope everyone who contributes are on same page.

 

Me, regretably I haven't had experience in any, I should have joined one in my teens, its a shame. I will be enrolling in a Kyokushin dojo after this summer for sure. Long overdue.

 

My martial arts relationship started in grade school, about 50 years ago. I studied a Japanese style for several years, Shorinjiryu. During my college and graduate years I studied Wing Chun. When I hit ~ 40, I began my study of taiji, xingyi, and bagua - mostly taiji, and have stuck with that for the past 20 years. At this point I’ve given up any real martial training and just focus on taiji form practice and some qigong. I also try to keep up the circle walking and occasionally revisit some of my earlier styles. My main motivation now is health and fitness. Anymore I run and walk more than practicing martial arts to be honest.

On 9/10/2024 at 1:09 PM, Lukks said:

How do you guys practice QiGong or meditation in public?

 

There was a very old post about it but that post was about this subject and it was great, if someone finds it please comment it here.

 

I don't have a garden to practice Zhan Zhuang and I really wanted to do it feet on the ground, but the simple idea of people making fun, laughing, recording, taking pics etc.. these things completely wards me off of trying this.

 

Do you think the problem is on me? Should I just do it and don't care about what people will think?

Or should I just keep doing it indoors and avoid "trouble"?

 

Where I live this is not common at all, no one does qigong or such things in public, actually, very few know about qigong in the first place

 

Recently I've been meditating on the bus, but I don't cross my legs, I just use the normal seated position with back straight and mudra, I can do it for 10min until I arrive at my destination, and when I finish and open my eyes it's just noticeable people looking at me and trying to figure out what I was doing haha, not the most comfortable situation for a shy person like me

 

I would love to hear your take on this

 

I think it is something we need to approach based on our level of comfort.

If the feelings of self-consciousness interfere with the ability to relax and concentrate, I would practice inside.

I have gotten to the point where I am comfortable practicing qigong, zhan zhuang, and internal martial arts forms in public, I even meet up with some others and practice pushing hands occasionally in public. 

I recommend you practice early in the morning or after sundown as it could help with the embarrassment.

Over time, as you feel more confidence in and benefit from your practice, you may be more comfortable practicing in front of others. 

The most important thing is to be able to really engage and focus on the practice. 

One caution I want to mention is to be aware of the possibility that this sort of practice may become an abstraction, a spiritual bypass.

It is easy to think we feel unconditional love and compassion for "all sentient beings" at an intellectual, conceptual level.

Far more challenging to actually feel that way in the heart, in the gut, especially with people with whom we have emotional history. There are too many practitioners who love all sentient beings with all of their heart but won't talk to an estranged sibling, or get very emotionally reactive to a parent or child or an ex.

 

One suggestion I have is to focus this sort of loving-kindness practice on those closest to us first, then it tends to be more genuine and it leads to more meaningful and tangible positive change in our lives. Start with people we really love unconditionally, or at least with fewer conditions. As we get better at it and it feels more natural, we can then extend the practice to those who challenge us, even to those we despise. The key for me is empathy. Once we can release the reactivity and feel open and warm with our family and friends, especially those who set us off, and with ourselves; it's relatively easy to love strangers, all sentient beings, but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Neidan is a complete mess.

 

Hanging out here one might reasonably conclude the ultimate goal of neidan is to piss off Dao Bums!

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Oxygen + glucose > CO2 + H2O + heat + energy(ATP)
From this expression, I have no doubt, in my mind, that the energy was generated within the muscle itself.

 

Chemistry is cool, so is physics!

Here is an excerpt from one of CP's papers that has a nice discussion of the mechanics of fajin:

 

https://medcraveonline.com/IJCAM/a-scientific-perspective-of-neijin-internal-strength.html#:~:text=Explosive release of,liveliness of maneuverability.

 

For me, his description of the mechanics is in line with my experience and shows a clear synthesis of physics and neuroscience in examining taijiquan and neijin magic.

43 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I am retired electrical/electronic engineer. At least, we have something in common. I hope we can iron out the concept of Taiji on common ground scientifically.

 

I studied taijiquan with CP Ong in the Washington DC area for a time.

CP is a dedicated practitioner and disciple of Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei and a great guy.

His background is in mathematics and he is committed to examining the mechanics of taiji techniques and effects.

Check out this link with his publications, you may find some of them interesting: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cp-Ong-2

 

22 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

🤷🏻‍♂️😊

 

 

One thing I've learned is that it is one thing to have an insight and another to put it into words and practice.

Yet another to share it with someone who does not have an appropriate frame of reference to easily understand.

Your "teacher" friend, could have had a deep and penetrating insight and still struggle to contextualize it and find it's proper place in their practical affairs and metaphysics. Insight is instantaneous but how it informs and manifests in our lives can play out in many ways over time, at least that has been my experience and observation. On the other hand, they may be trying to find a connection in admittedly disparate paradigms without that insight which would likely lead to a mess...

6 hours ago, Giles said:

Not really. There's a distinct difference between Brahamic religions and Abrahamic religions and, sadly, I've just seen one of my current "teachers" tying themselves into knots by attempting to fit what seems to be an "unimputable" Self-realisation into an Abrahamic framework.

 

 

It’s clear as day to me…. but what do I know?

🤣

 

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

And, like Christianity,  Buddhism aquires, rebrands and repackages other systems.

 

 

Arguably, as has every system that has been or will ever be… But what they are all pointing at remains as it is, unimputable.

On 7/10/2024 at 6:29 AM, adept said:

"Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation"

 

I disagree, and I agree. Just my limited perspective and I appreciate the OP.

 

Buddhism is a massive and complex beast that aspires to help all people who find their current condition unsatisfactory. 

Consequently it has developed many ideas, practices, teachings because different people need different approaches at different times in their lives. 

In most Buddhist lineages there is a path that is considered the "highest" or perhaps better said "most direct" path.

This is a path that eschews, or at least transcends, all of the complicated machinations and creations of mind and recognizes the mind's essence, or nature, as the fundamental source; what the Zen masters refer to as "ordinary mind." it is what is left when all of the mind's activity and content is allowed to release. We are never as much as a hair's breadth away from it and yet, it is rare for it to be recognized and realized as the path.

 

Once this "ordinary mind" is realized we know that there is nothing whatever to be done.

It is always already with us. This is why it is often said, doing nothing yet all is completed, leave it as it is, practice non-meditation, and similar sayings from all of the wisdom traditions' esoteric factions. It is the core of all of the great spiritual teachings. It is nothing special or unique and yet it is the magic of life and the source of all we experience.

 

So Zen is not Buddhism but Buddhism understands and teaches Zen to those whose karma is in alignment. Zen is not meditation, it cannot be captured in a word, a concept, or a practice and yet it is always there and, at least in dzogchen parlance, meditation means to continuously, and effortlessly, release the activity of the mind and remain fully connected to the mind's nature, the "ordinary mind," whether the mind is quiet or active. When sitting quietly on the cushion, this is called formal meditation. When remaining connected during all of life's activities, rewards, and challenges this is called informal meditation. 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Curious to hear from folks who have undertaken studying and practicing (and maybe teaching?) any of these methods.

 

When I first started practicing Daoist meditation, I recall asking my teacher about what books I could read to help me along. His response was ‘don’t waste your time reading - practice, practice, practice!’ He was emphatic about practice over theory in all things Daoist.

 

He was also my martial arts teacher. He pushed us to study the basics of multiple arts (external and 3 internals) and then to narrow our focus to one that suited us best and go as far and deep as possible in that one discipline. When teaching, he would demonstrate a movement three times, no more and no less. If we didn’t get it, we would have to try again next time. I quickly learned to always watch the footwork and the waist, everything else can be deduced from that. If he liked you, he would use you to demonstrate and teach the more subtle aspects non-verbally through eye contact and facial expression as he applied the techniques with you in front of the class.

2 hours ago, DBT said:

Last week I posted “A Celtic Blessing “, this was from the book Anam Cara. I have given a copy of Anam Cara to each of my true friends.

 

I love his book The Four Elements: Reflections on Nature. I gave a copy to my Bön teacher years ago.

Currently reading these three - the first two slowly. War and Peace just keeps getting better and better! Many thanks to @liminal_luke for turning me on to the slow read on Substack!

 

On 8/24/2024 at 7:33 AM, DBT said:

For me, it is a book by John O Donahue called Anam Cara (soul friend). It is about Celtic wisdom, a beautiful book.

 

I love Anam Cara and John’s other writings. I often find myself quoting him, he has such a way with language and with connecting art, creativity, and spirituality. I also enjoy listening to him speak, such a lovely brogue.