doc benway

 

It happens, however it seems to happen mostly between teachers and students and sometimes doesn't work so well with strangers.

Curious phenomenon, isn't it?

Doesn't surprise me a bit... this video doesn't impress me at all. I've yet to see a video of "qi power" that I thought was credible.

It's not that I don't "believe" in qi - it's just that my definition is different. I don't believe in the video demos I've seen to date, including this one. I'm not trying to be negative at all - just stating an opinion.

PS - this is beside Buddy's point but FYI there is nothing in Calamine lotion that affects that natural course of the healing process in poison ivy exposure, all it does is soothe the itching. The body heals with or without the Calamine. Could meditation speed up the process? I believe it can.

I've been in the medical field for 18 years (including training, 24) and there's absolutely no question that the human mind plays an enormous role in patient outcomes with treatment. I see it every day. The greatest effect is on pain and disability but it goes beyond that as well...

PSS - these are two of my favorite "qi power" videos...

Jesus was a Jew, Buddha a "Hindu," Muhammad...not Muslim before becoming prophet...and the list goes on.

Jesus clearly went against the Jewish establishment, Buddha abandoned the Hindu traditions and all other existing traditions that he tried - assuming our history is accurate. In fact, there are some pretty convincing arguments that they may never have existed or may have been much different than the picture history has painted - although that's for a different discussion. We'll certainly never know what they considered themselves to be with any accuracy. Either way, they were clearly rebels who blazed new trails and thought for themselves rather than following the existing methods and belief systems.

Good post xuesheng. Absolutely correct. If you become an -ist, -um, -ian then you have put yourself in a box that you can no longer see out of. Same goes for -ism's.

 

I thought I was a Taoist until I started listening to Alan Watts. Then I thought am I a Buddhist? Then I realised that all these teachings were trying to show me the same thing but in a different way.

 

Its like trying to understand what an elephant is whilst blindfolded and only feeling the tail. You then move round the front and feel the trunk. Eventually you feel everything of the elephant. And you realise there are some things that are best left alone.

 

Blinkered religion is the cause of many a war.

 

Currently I am reading the Qu'ran trying to understand a little more about cultural events. A lot has been taken out of context. After that I plan to read the other great books. Just out of curiosity. I am not looking to convert to anything.

 

I am just trying to get a better feel for the elephant.

Have you read Jiddu Krishnamurti? If not, I'd highly recommend him. To Be Human is a very good place to start. Life changing stuff... for me at least.

I'm thinking why should we think of ourselves as -ists at all? Should there be a t-shirt about we are Dao-ists? Dao should be sanatana dharma, the eternal way. Why is this not obvious?

This deserves emphasis.

Brief detour -

It's a curious thing. When someone is out there speaking the truth, they general do not refer to themselves as a member of any particular group, system, belief,... Think of Jesus, Laozi, Zhuangzi, Buddha, J Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, and so on. You can bet you ass Laozi and Zhuangzi would not have claimed to be an '-ist' of any sort. They don't identify with a group because they are thinking for themselves! They are rebels. They're going against the groups, the 'beliefs', the systems, the corruption, the institutionalization. Their followers, however, start a new group studying and honoring the brilliance of these rebels. Then they all go down the same old path - institutionalization, modification, dilution, corruption. It's inevitable.

You must think for yourself. A teacher, group, system can only take you so far. If you follow someone else, how can you possibly find the truth? The truth has to be found in yourself. If you follow someone else all you can possibly learn is their truth - what works for them - their interpretation.

Very nice clips. I'm really impressed with Sun Zhi Jun. His footwork and body movement is incredible.

I don't know about the Zhang Zhaodong clip - to me his stepping seems a little heavy and his concentration a bit inconsistent. Maybe it's the long grass and uneven ground but his demo left me a bit cool. It's also possible that it's just my lack of knowledge of him or his style. Any comments? I'm here to learn.

Howabouttao -

Excellent questions. In my view there is nothing more important than healthy skepticism and nothing more dangerous than faith. I applaud and respect Buddy's stance as it is all too easy to begin to pretend to believe when everyone around is yelling 'don't you see it?' At the same time, I respect everyone who has experienced something, labels it qi and acts accordingly. Please continue to post tough questions. If certain member on the forum seem to get their dander up that's more about them than you.

My experience with qi - When I started practicing taijiquan and xingyiquan combined with dao meditation, I began to "believe" in qi. I am able to experience my yi (intention) guiding the qi (a sense or awareness within the body) in the taiji form, xingyi forms, qigong, and most intensely during dao meditation. To me, qi appears to be an awareness of the physical being or an interaction of the consciousness with the physical being. I look at it more as a process, movement, or interaction than as some sort of stuff. It seems that practice can intensify this awareness. It is a perception that really doesn't seem to exist actively in conscious awareness unless trained.

I think the definition of qi is what is at issue rather than the existence. People who practice dao meditation, taiji, qigong, and other disciplines are able to experience a conscious perception of the physical being that goes beyond the average Joe in everyday life. This perception can be useful for health and martial purposes. This is what I interpret as qi. It is the process of existence or perhaps life, depending on your semantic leaning.

I have never experienced the more magical qualities of qi that people claim. Until I experience them, I will remain skeptical like a few others on this forum. Many of the amazing effects attributed to qi healing and manipulation can be easily explained by other means. Many people exploit others' beliefs in this area - spirituality is a hugely profitable business.

"perhaps Chi is just a product of our imagination..." This is an interesting question. When I first started taiji and was trying to understand what I was supposed to be feeling I read a little book by Waysun Liao about taiji. It gave instructions for using the imagination to experience qi in the beginning and this worked for me. The real questions is not whether qi is a product of our imagination but - is anything NOT a product of our imagination? Everything you know and experience is percieved by your brain. In this sense (and perhaps a much larger sense which I won't get into at this moment) you create the universe. Sound does not exist without an eardrum and brain to convert air pressure variations into music, for example. So yes, qi is a product of our imagination, IMO.

A friend of mine once said, "Chasing enlightenment is like kissing your sister"

 

Who knows? maybe he is right?

What his sister cute?

The discussion regarding where roads lead to is particularly ironic ...

All roads lead somewhere and require someone to travel them. Since there is nowhere to go and noone to go there, all roads ultimately lead away from what we're looking for.

Just my view...

 

It is the goal.

 

Whose goal?

Xuesheng

 

I disagree with simple mindfullness practice as the prescription here. In fact since a lot of people in the west tend to be HEAD oriented they tend to be DIS connnected from their bodies. Result: clumsy and ungraceful.

 

Focusing on mindfullness ACCOMPANIED by exercises designed to lead to a greater consciousness of the body moving in space would be a good way to address the issues at hand.

 

I am not so sure that one can or should address being clumsy and ungraceful with a mental approach, in fact I am saying that this seems to be focusing on the head and not on the center of gravity.

 

Not to denigrate your experience with mindfullness practice but I think the route of going directly into the body would be the most effective.

 

What is the first lesson many IMA teachers try to get across? Sink the Qi. Bring your attention to your lower tantien. Most people have their energetic center floating higher than the Lower Tantien due to overheated heart and brain (western style excess Yang ) or other issues. <Yes I know this is a vast overgeneralization but it is my understanding of the situation > People who are overly "in their head" tend to be more clumsy and ungraceful compared to those who have put more attention into physical mastery, whether they are martial artists or any other type. People who watch TV or spend time at the computer tend also to have their energy more in their heads and less in their body. Therefore most if not all people need to learn how to Sink the Qi. (Buddy - you can just use the idea of putting your mind in your center of gravity, although I am sure you don't need IMA advice from me)

Craig

This is getting interesting. I'm going to continue this detour as I think it may be instructive.

I would prefer to say that people are too much in their thoughts, not their head. I think this is an important distinction. Also, this raises questions about the "head" - body relationship:

Is sinking the qi in the head or the body?

Is mindfullness just in the head?

Obviously questions that are worthy of further discussion, IMO. Nevertheless, I agree with you 100% regarding the importance of a physical component to this questioner's problem, that's why I mentioned taiji. I also think there is great importance in a mental component (what causes the qi to sink?). Some of the greatest benefits of taiji, yoga, qigong, and other martial arts derive from the integration of the mental with the physical which helps get you out of your thoughts and into reality.

Lifelong commitment

Calmly accepting the change

Commited to life

Committed to life

Republicans; abortion

More dead in Iraq

sorry for the interjection of politics - hopefully this will not knock this great thread off track..

Hi Craig,

"While I agree that Taiji is the supreme ultimate"

While obviously taiji has a literal meaning that is something like that, it doesn't mean that it is the "supreme ulitmate" martial art, obviously that depends on the practitioner. But if we look at the taiji symbol, I think Yin/Yang boxing would be a better translation.

I agree that Supreme Ultimate Boxing is a poor translation but it ain't going away anytime soon. Here's a good example of poor translation causing widespread misunderstanding in issues related to Daoism. I think a better concise definition of Taiji would be Complimentary Opposites. Yet most of us on this forum know that defining taiji requires a parapraph, or a book, or better yet, meditation, not two or three words. I never use Supreme Ultimate Boxing - I like to call it Taijiquan. Taiji Boxing or Yin Yang Boxing also work quite nicely. Maybe we should go back to Long Boxing... Complimentary Opposite Boxing doesn't sound quite right...

While I agree that Taiji is the supreme ultimate, it may be a bit too much of a bite for starters.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree. The majority of taiji programs are health/fitness oriented and many are geared towards seniors whose primary need is better balance and coordination. Most teach a short and non-demanding form with easy warmups. An intense, martially oriented program might not be the best fit but a qualified teacher who focuses on health and wellness would be ideal for this purpose. They can often be found at YMCAs, senior centers, wellness centers, and so on - just my $.02.

PS As was already mentioned, simple mindfullness practice would be very beneficial but is one of the most challenging and ellusive disciplines I've ever practiced...

Taiji is great for this. Meditation alone may help as well but taiji really focuses on coordination of movement in time and space and integration of the mind with physical movement.

When do you tend to do your eye circles (in the morning with no tiredeness or to relieve tiredness?) I tend to do the eye circles when cupping - have not heard of continuing the circles with yi - sounds like a fantastic idea!

 

After practicing the taiji form in the mornings, I go through a brief routine that includes the eye circles. One note of caution - don't overdo it. Since it's something you've not done on a regular basis before, overdoing it could cause some muscle strain and discomfort. I would start once a day in the morning and increase that to twice a day at most in a few weeks. Also, don't force the motion or strain with the circles. They should cover a full range of motion but without any strain or discomfort.

Good luck

I've done two related exercises for quite some time on a regular basis - can't say how much it helps but I've had two independent teachers recommend them

1. Full, slow rotation of the eyes in in full circles in both directions (I usually do 7 circles in each direction - doubt if the number matters)

2. Repeat same thing but this time only using yi - no actual movement, just intention.

I usually keep my eyes closed but I don't think that is essential.

I find that as long as the new topic titles reflect the contents of the thread, I can manage. It's easy to scan new threads and ignore or explore them based on my interest. There is certainly value in segregating posts into sub-categories but it's not mandatory. I would leave that call to administration. When a topic appeals to me and I feel like I have something to say, I do so. Otherwise I ignore it. When a member annoys me, I ignore them. It's pretty easy really. I think this is a very interesting forum to visit as is. Furthermore, as people get their dander up and express themselves freely, with minimal administrator interference, it gives the rest of us an opportunity to learn more about that person. Furthermore, as has already been mentioned, when someone gets me angry on a forum, it's really more about me than them. It's an excellent opportunity to look at how I feel and why, and I've had some really valuable insights into myself as a result (some on this very forum).

Keep up the good work Sean!

Nice suggestion, I may give that a try.

I currently use a 100lb heavy bag to practice ji and an and I find it works well. You just need the patience to allow or help the bag to settle between strikes (or time it to impact on the rebound).

I agree with cat. The way Kunlun has been marketed raised some hackles and set off some warnings sirens among some of us on this forum. Others have jumped in and loved the practice. I made some pretty strong comments about it as it first gained momentum. Those involved in it were quite sensitive to any and all criticism and, overall, remain a bit sensitive to criticism even now. I understand that feeling as I get defensive about my practices as well. We all want to feel that what we are committing our time and resources to is worthwhile and legitimate. As a result, after I said my piece, I let it go. Eventually other legitmate contributors will probably do the same...

Spring, Summer,, really is an amazing film. Cant really watch it munching pop corn and sipping coke. Best watched in a dark room. needs concentration and thought.

 

Any other similar films to recommend?

Why Has Bodhidharma Left for the East? is a good movie

We are qi-depleted globally, that's the source of difficulty in perceiving qi... not a terminological vs. experiential defect but a flaw in our reality.

So true!

Why is it that humans have become so distant from their nature, from their awareness of qi (feel free to substitute any other terminology - god, brahma, the self, that which is... that expresses a similar isolation, if you prefer)?

an aside - In my experience of cultivation I feel less like I am "increasing" or "storing" qi and more like I am becoming more sensitive to it like I am developing the organ responsible for perceiving it and working with it. My terminology would be more "qi-insensitive" than "qi-depleted" but I agree with the consequence entirely. Just semantics, for the purposes of this discussion at least.

So is it somehow that our thought process and language skills interfere with or block the qi awareness (I use qi awareness in a very general sense, if you want to substitue another expression for communing with our true nature, that's fine)? What else is there about humans that would have this effect? Our tendency to create images through thought? This is also primarily a consequence of language.

It seems to me that our ability to problem solve, survive, thrive has been so dramatically developed through our capacity for thought and language (again using thought a bit carelessly perhaps, I don't mean to imply that other creatures do not think, but our method seems unique probably due to language) that we were able to discard the organ responsible for connecting us to 'what is' at a deeper level. It seems that the fragmentation of thought, which leads to a thought that considers itself "me" and watches over the other thoughts could be responsible along with our technological advancements which allow us to have no interaction with nature in our daily lives. It seems that the thought process has so monopolized our consciousness (and that's reasonable given it's effectiveness as a survival tool), that we have become dull to everything else. This is why meditation is important - to allow us to become aware of the world beyond thought. That's where the beginning of salvation is, I think, but how does an entire culture awaken to this?

 

 

I'm not familiar with tea ceremonies, but I thought they'd make a good addition to the thread. What's the score with those?

My sifu is a tea connosieur. He is very picky about what he'll drink. He gets the best Taiwanese oolong each Spring and doesn't drink too much else (I try to get a little from him - it's really special and costs ~ $250/pound!). He taught me the gung fu tea brewing method (I posted about it on this forum a few months ago). I bought a really inexpensive set up to keep at our school and we really enjoy it - we'll drink tea sometimes after meetings or when a few of the instructors get together to train at off times. I really enjoy the art of the tea pot as well - I like to check them out on the web.

The basic gung fu brewing method is as follows:

1. Bring water to near boil (water temp will vary with the particular type of tea, cooler for green, hotter for black).

2. Put tea in small yixing pot (clay) and put tea pot on something to catch overflow (saucer, special tea tray).

Generally speaking you put in enough tea to cover the bottom of the pot but this can vary depending on the size and shape of the pot.

3. Pour hot water in pot.

4. Immediately pour water out into serving pitcher (this step is optional and rinses the tea of crud, warms the pot, and helps the tea to begin to open up before brewing).

5. Fill pot again with hot water and then pour the first rinse water over pot for further warming.

6. Steep for desired time.

7. Pour into serving pitcher - this is important so the tea doesn't continue to steep as each guest is served in turn.

8. Serve from pitcher.

Repeat as often as desired.

Some people use a special cup for sniffing and second for tasting. The first is tall and narrow, the second short and wide. The tea is poured into the aroma cup then poured from there into the tasting cup. The aroma cup is then sniffed while empty to appreciate the fragrance of the tea.

For high grade oolong tea, this process can be repeated multiple times. My sifu usually does about 4 or 5 rounds. First round ~30 seconds steeping time, second ~45, third ~60, fourth ~120 and so on... That varies considerably with the tea, size of pot, temperature of water, personal taste...

Generally the second or third rounds are the most fragrant and flavorful. The first can be a bit bitter. Gradually the tea loses it's potency and is discarded.

Generally speaking, this is not as ceremonial and ritualized as the Japanese cha no yu. As I find to be a Chinese cultural characteristic, gung fu brewing is more practical than the Japanese equivalent and simply designed to extract the most out of the tea. Nevertheless, going through the process does create a very nice atmosphere among friends or colleagues, and the art of brewing the perfect cup of tea can be challenging and rewarding.

THere are some tea shops around that will teach you the technique if you're interested. I found a really good one when visiting Seattle this year at the market on the waterfront.

Here is an informative link...

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm

Very nice post - thanks for sharing this and thanks for your candor. When you say the tools to authenticate Chinese training manuals are not available do you mean anywhere? in Taiwan? or within your budget? My assumption was that there are quite accurate methods for dating such documents, for a price, at least in the US. Is there something unique about Chinese manuals (paper, ink, ...) that makes them an exception?

Steve

Here are a few - more spur of the moment than thoughtfully considered...

1. Does style matter in the martial arts from a combat perspective?

Elaboration - do all styles lead to the same ultimate point as is claimed, is it more a matter of the quality of the student? quality of the teacher? quality of training regimen? all of the above? We all have opinions but if the answer were knowable, I'd be interested...

2. What is the true origin of taijiquan?

3. Did xingyiquan really come from spear fighting techniques?

4. What would it be like to have studied taiji since early childhood?

5. What is the nature of the transformation that occurs during iron palm/shirt training from an anatomic/physiologic perspective?

Extra credit question for xingyi practitioners - Why does it hurt when I pi?

Sorry, I love that line, couldn't help myself...

Your eyes open mine

Your thoughts fill my consciousness

White clouds brush blue sky...