Iskote

Yes, from what little I know about neidan practices, it does involve a specialized type of neigong. I don't know if all neidan schools approach it that way, however. Have you attended any workshops with Wang Liping? I am a bit leery of modern day teachers who charge big bucks for their workshops, although I have only heard of good things about Wang Liping. I can see that charging a bit higher fee may help to weed out people who are only dabblers or who are just there out of curiosity; however, charging very high fees does tend to favor people who are more well off, and for people who are not well off it can potentially bring them some financial hardship, so I am quite turned off from that sort of thing. Maybe that pricing for Wang Liping's workshops is more set by the people who organize the workshops who are trying to make some profit for them self through those workshops? Not sure how that all works. I recently came across a teacher from Singapore who teaches a type of spontaneous qigong and also what he calls "dan dao", as well. In his system the teacher apparently does a type of qi transmission for a student at different stages. Out of curiosity, I asked him what he charges students to learn his system. He said he charges $10,000 Singapore dollars (a little over $7000 USD, I believe) for a student to learn just the first level of his qigong. This whole commercialization thing in modern times of these types of practices turns me right off, personally. If a teacher really wants to help people, putting students under huge financial stress to learn from the teacher is definitely not helping the students, in my view. Rich people will be able to pay such fees without too much issue, but that is just not financially feasible for many people.

Although this might not apply directly to neidan teachers specifically, some qigong and internal martial arts teachers I have encountered over the years were able to demonstrate to me very convincingly that they had a high degree of skill with qi manipulation, and could use that ability to help their students make better progress. Since the early stages of neidan, from what I understand, are usually focused on opening up the meridians and channels and building up one's qi, I would be inclined to think the same sort of thing can be applied to neidan practitioners. I would think that in the initial stages of neidan, students may need assistance and guidance with dealing with qi blockages and imbalances, and having a teacher who can directly assist with such things can be really helpful. In general though, as another example, if a teacher is telling you that neidan practice should give you robust health, and the teacher doesn't look very healthy at all, that would seem to be a warning sign that something is probably not right. I recall some students of Wang Liping in the past have stated that he has apparently used his abilities during workshops to help his students make better progress. Students are left with the impression that something out of the ordinary occurs during his workshops. I haven't been to one of his workshops, so I can't personally vouch for that though. In my own experience, teachers I have met who have a high degree of qi skill, were able to demonstrate that in various ways. It's not like you walk up to them and say, "show me what you can do", but in the course of interacting with them over time, it becomes obvious that they do have unusual skills. My own view is someone who is accomplished in neidan is probably going to have some such types of unusual abilities ,and that should likely become obvious over time. Just my own point of view.

Yes, my impression is that there may be notable differences between different schools in approach and even with basic concepts, but not sure how much those differences may be. Traditionally, most of this stuff was kept secret with any writings on the topic written in deliberate cryptic symbolism, so its hard to say exactly how closely different traditions compare. When you also consider that the Chinese cultural revolution pretty much wiped out much of these practices in China for a number of years except for some few who may have continued to practice in private, its anyone's guess regarding how closely to original practices whatever practices that have survived today are. From what I have been able to gather from some of the offerings out there in recent years, it does appear that there can be quite different practices under the name of internal alchemy, although there may be a common underlying theme to some extent to internal alchemy practices. Considering that many of these practices were traditionally kept secret, that just emphasizes how difficult it can be for a prospective student to try to determine what might be authentic traditional practices and what might be considered heretical practices or outright made up practices. I think though that generally traditional neidan requires quite a commitment in time, and that is why it was mostly practiced by 'monks' who could devote the time to it throughout their life. Hard for a modern day person who works a full time job to commit to such practices, I think.

Interesting video. Nathan has some interesting things to say there. Regarding your quote which you attribute to Wang Liping, "If it is forming the elixir or embryo it is Nei-Dan, If it isn't, then it isn't", that raises the question for me of what exactly is meant by 'elixir' and 'embryo'. Do all neidan schools define those terms the same way? I suspect that they don't.

The real meanings in old alchemy writings are well known to be intentionally hidden behind much symbolism. Therefore reading such texts without direct guidance and explanations from an accomplished teacher is typically advised against, in my experience. Exchanging one level of symbolism with yet another is of no real practical use, IMO, and is not an explanation of the actual underlying concepts. Dear Awaken, since you have been unable to explain those concepts in straight forward language, which you keep insisting no one here understands, and are apparently not able to even explain what the goal of what you practice is, I have the answers to my questions. Thank you for your time. Best wishes. For anyone out there interested in internal alchemy practices, attempting to follow such old alchemy writings by taking the writings literally, or thinking that you are clever enough to figure it out yourself on your own, is not advisable, IMO. To each their own, however. Whatever path we each may choose to walk at any point in time, we are still walking a path. There are always lessons to be learned along the way. We all have our own lessons to learn in our own way. Who is to say in the end what is ultimately of value, and what is not? I certainly don't know.

Dear Awaken, From what I have seen over the years, there are various different practices and approaches under the banner of daoism which may be referred to as self cultivation and alchemy practices. In my view, it therefore seems unwise to make broad generalizations about such different practices. Each different school/sect would typically have their own different types and variations in practices and views and goals. Some may include a number of different practices and approaches, such as different practices and views focused towards cultivation of body, mind, and 'spirit', and some also include religious practices and views, as well. Can you explain in simple and straightforward language an overview of what your practice involves, and what are the specific benefits you believe you have achieved from your practices? Personally, I don't find cryptic symbolism about 'crow liver' and 'rabbit marrow' as being very meaningful and helpful at all. From your experience, what do these things actually represent in practical terms and in straightforward language? What are the specific goals of what you practice? All the best.

dreams

All anyone can do is find some practice that seems to bring some results for them in relation to their goals, if they have an interest in such things. Just depends on what any given person's goals are. Doing some research, if possible, and using your best judgement is probably always a good idea as there are of course fakes and unqualified people misrepresenting them self as 'experts' and 'masters' out there, offering different things, but if the teacher seems reasonably legit and the practice seems to be giving good results for you, in relation to your goals, can that really be so bad? There are various different approaches out there, and some may seem to be conflicting, with some people saying do it this way, and others saying, do not do it that way. Which way is right, then? Does the teacher seem to embody at least some of the qualities of what they say their system/method offers? Does the teacher seem to demonstrate that they have some real accomplishment in what they are offering? That has seemed to be a good guideline for me anyway, when evaluating any given teacher. In the end, using your best judgement and going with what works for you and not worrying too much about naysayers, would seem to be a good practical approach.

Endless debates over what is correct and what is not correct. Endless debates over what is better and what is worse. Every day fare in the kingdom of the ego. Up and down, east and west, hot and cold. Which is correct? Which is not correct? Which is better? Which is worse? Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority? Who here on this Earth can say what immortality is? If anyone can live forever, they must be very rare. No, it's about spiritual immortality, you say? What is spirit? What is spiritual immortality? This person says this. That person says that. Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority? What use is self-cultivation if it is not practical? If what a person practices has value and benefit for them, is it not good? If what a person practices improves their health and state of mind, is it not good? What does it matter what this person or that person says about some particular cultivation method? If what a person practices has value and benefit for them, is it not good? If what a person practices improves their health and state of mind, is it not good? I am just a human standing on a vast Earth, surrounded by a vast universe. I do not know anything about spiritual embryos and immortality. Nebulous clouds which no one can seem to agree upon. Beautiful images for the ego to picture and behold. In this world we must be practical. Will it help us through our work day? Will it give us better health? Will it give us a better state of mind? Will it help us to interact with others in a more positive way? Will it help ease the aches and pains as we grow older? What is ultimately real, and what is ultimately not real? What is ultimately of value, and what is ultimately not of value? I do not know. Which all-knowing and all-seeing being can answer these questions with absolute authority?

Assuming John Blofeld did not make this story up, John Blofeld gave his interpretation of what he experienced. With the help of the 'Taoist Dzeng', he apparently entered into a non-dualistic state of awareness for a short period of time. The ego revolts. "This is heresy", says the ego. "What could possibly be which the ego cannot conceive of?" "That surely must be nonsense", says the ego. Some people who want very much to try to find answers to such questions, may seek out various methods to try to find such answers. Some people may spend a good portion of their whole life practicing methods to try to get such answers. Throughout history some say they have found answers. Who can say whether any really have, or not? Each person may pursue that which seems to hold value for them. In the grand scheme of things, are such pursuits ultimately of value, or is it all just folly? I couldn't say.

I can't say, but for interest's sake, here is an excerpt from John Blofeld's book, "My Journey in Mystic China", Pages 231 - 237): (Thanks to Gerard and Yueya for posting this excerpt in an old thread here several years ago). --- --- --- In 1948, on the night before the Lantern Festival, I unexpectedly encountered a peculiar event. That day I had heard about a 'living immortal' who was staying in the western quarter of the city [Peking, AKA Beijing], and this came as strange news to me. Although I was not certain that there existed such a thing, I really wanted to go meet this so-called immortal. Because I'd heard that this living immortal would soon be going to the south and I might therefore miss my opportunity, I decided then and there to immediately pay him a visit. My servant Old Dzan called a motor car, and as the weather was extremely cold, the open car had a quilt inside to block the wind. The passenger rode as though tucked inside of a Mongolian tent, but the stench was really hard to bear. It took over an hour to reach the immortal's residence. A note on the gate informed visitors that the immortal was in the midst of meditation and no one was permitted to enter. I was freezing to death, and needed to warm myself by a fire. Using this as an excuse, I mustered my courage and went resolutely inside. The gatekeeper told me that it was forbidden to enter, but he didn't dare raise his arm to block me and just stood there agitated, so he did not stop me from walking up to the front door and knocking. A servant opened the door and led me to the parlor to warm myself by the fire. And there before my eyes sat the immortal. He was sitting cross-legged on a mat, meditating. He sat with his back to the door and did not notice that someone had entered the room, and for a long time he just sat there like a lifeless statue. When he finally stood up, turned around, and noticed me, he did not seem the least bit surprised, and said casually, "Good, good! Mr. Pu [Mr. Pu was apparently how John Blofeld was referred to in China], you have arrived." Struck with wonder and curiosity by his prescience, I asked myself how he could possibly know that my name was Pu. Until the moment that I told my servant to find me a cab, even I did not know that today I would be going to visit this complete stranger. After arriving at his residence, I hadn't mentioned my name to anyone there. So the moment I heard him address me as "Mr. Pu," I stood there wide-eyed and slack-jawed with wonder, and felt very astonished. He called for tea, and invited me to sit down. We sat facing one another, with a small tea table between us. I bowed to pay my respects, then said politely, "It's a great honor to meet you, esteemed immortal, and please forgive me for disturbing you. Do you have a few minutes to spare? Otherwise, I could .... " It was obvious that he was not pleased to hear me address him as "immortal," and so he riposted with the question, "Is it possible that there exists such a thing as an immortal in this world? And if indeed there really are such strange creatures, by no means should you mistake me as one of them. In my humble opinion, immortals are characters fabricated by human beings. Regrettably, my humble self is sometimes praised by others as being an immortal. How on earth could there possibly be such a thing? Please, sir, address me as Taoist Dzeng." This white-haired Taoist wasn't wearing Taoist robes. He wore a long padded tunic of blue satin and felt boots. His hair was cut short, like most elderly men in contemporary China. It was clear that he felt great disdain for charlatans posing as immortals. I said, "Although the venerable Mr. Dzeng is not an immortal, you certainly are endowed with great spiritual power. Otherwise, how could you foretell that my name is Pu?" He poured me a cup of tea before replying, "My humble self may perhaps have a small measure of obscure clairvoyant ability. That's a very common result of practicing meditation." "May I inquire, sir, what business brings you here, that you would risk the cold to come to my residence?" At this moment, Taoist Dzeng's expression seemed to carry a tinge of sarcasm. With a straight face I replied, "My humble self has for a long time wished to meet a Taoist adept who is highly accomplished in the mystical arts, and to ask him for guidance regarding which type of practices are most effective for restoring youth and prolonging life." The venerable old Dzeng smiled and said, "'If you don't believe in the teaching, you cannot obtain its benefits.” How can I possibly explain this in words? Ha-ha, Mr. Pu has climbed famous mountains, and has received teachings from many great Buddhist monks and Taoist adepts, so why would you find it worthwhile to ask for guidance from my humble self? I daresay, sir, that you must be familiar with some words of advice from the Tao Teh Ching. The general meaning of this advice is that visiting famous mountains and traveling afar to seek teachings about the Tao is not nearly as useful as staying home, shutting the door, and examining your own mind." When he finished speaking, he gazed steadily into my eyes, as though concentrating the full power of his attention on making me understand. At that moment, a very peculiar sensation suddenly arose within me. All of a sudden, he, I, and everything in the space between us, while still retaining their external appearance, seemed to condense into an inseparable singularity, as though we had suddenly dissolved into one amorphous entity. This dimension of existence gave me a feeling a great joy. For a short while, my mind was mesmerized and my spirit was lost, but at the same time, I knew that this condition was definitely not a distorted fantasy. The strange thing was that although I felt very happy and at ease in that state, I also felt that I could not withstand this man's spiritual power much longer, and that if I did not soon break free of his gaze, I might never return to the normal world, and so I quickly lowered my eyes and terminated that mysterious sensation. Just then, a group of visitors arrived to see him. They seemed to have come by previous appointment. Therefore, I did not wish to disturb him any longer, bade him farewell, and took my leave. A few days later I heard that the venerable Dzeng had already departed by train for the south. I had missed the opportunity to inquire in detail about several strange matters. For example, how had he known my surname? How had he known that I visited many famous mountains, and that I'd sought teachings about Buddhist doctrine and Taoist mysteries from numerous renowned masters? Relatively speaking, these few matters were not very important. Before we'd met, it was possible that the old man had casually heard that there was a Westerner named Pu living in Peking who had a strong interest in Taoism, and possibly he'd heard people discussing my appearance and other things about me. Although this was only a slight possibility, it was also not impossible. But Old Dzeng had definitely caused me to experience the phenomenon known as "myriad objects uniting into one whole," and for a very short time I had entered into this mysterious dimension. I'd like to discuss in more detail the meaning of this so-called “uniting as one whole" phenomenon, both from the perspective of Taoist reaching as well as modern science. When Old Dzeng fixed his penetrating gaze on me, I definitely and very clearly perceived the inseparable and boundless nature of all phenomena. That is to say, my perception at the time was that even though all objects had their own separate relative identity, at the same time they were also all completely unified as one primordial entity. That of course defies logic, and is a principle that lies beyond rational debate. I had long ago learned from my Buddhist and Taoist studies about the relative nature of reality, and that only through a higher level of wisdom could one really understand the true nature of phenomena. And yet, in only a few fleeting moments, Old Dzeng had given me a direct experiential perception of the fundamental nature of reality. --- --- ---

Let's say a person has an interest in trying to understand through direct personal experience if there is 'something more' that is 'outside of' or which 'underlies' the world of opposites we find our self in. 'Something more' than the world of dualistic perceptions and dualistic mental conceptions. In my understanding, this 'something more' has been described as 'something which is beyond form and formless', and it has been referred to as 'something' that is actually beyond the conception and words and thinking of the ordinary dualistic mind. So, in this case, 'beyond form and formless' and similar terms such as 'outside', etc., are only terms of convenience used to refer to 'something' which really can't be described in words. It can only be alluded to. Achieving this special state of awareness beyond the worldly mind of duality is sometimes alluded to in some daoist cultivation systems and in the dao de jing, as well. Some might describe this different state of non-dualistic awareness using terms along the lines of 'merging with dao' or 'returning to dao', or in other systems, perhaps 'enlightenment' or 'buddhahood'. Assuming it is really possible for a person to achieve such a state of non-dualistic awareness, can one be taught or be guided to potentially achieve this special state of awareness? I do not know, but some over the centuries have suggested it is possible. However, if one really wants to try to achieve such a special state of awareness, one might well consider seeking guidance on how to approach achieving this special state, if possible. Of course, there are various systems out there which claim to have such a lofty goal, and which claim to have a method or methods to lead or guide a person towards that goal. If one were to look for a good potential accomplished teacher of one of these types of systems, what qualities might we look for in such a teacher? Would it be reasonable to expect that such a teacher might be less concerned to some noticeable degree with worldly affairs and matters than your average person? If so, such a teacher might be expected to not be too overly oriented towards various worldly matters, and less likely to display the sort of negativity and judgmental attitudes and behaviors we see in 'ordinary' people we find everywhere in this dualistic world. Such a teacher or guide is still a human being, so we should probably expect at least some degree of normal human behaviors, as well, as such a person which is still here bodily amongst us in this world, and must still function within this dualistic world. I am not suggesting that such a person would have to appear to be a 'saint' in any way. Not at all. I am suggesting that it seems at least reasonable to me that such a person who has made some real progress in 'cultivation of non-dualistic awareness' of the nature referred to here, might well be expected to be showing at least some noticeable signs of a shift in awareness away from 'ordinary' dualistic thinking and behavior. If a 'teacher' of such an approach is, instead, showing clear indications through their behavior and actions of being very much involved with ordinary dualistic thinking and behaviors such as showing signs of being noticeably egotistical and judgmental, and displaying a fair amount of negativity, and other similar common dualistic worldly traits, then I personally would be inclined to question if such a person really has anything much to offer to an aspiring student with the goal described here. That's just my point of view, however, and I could be wrong about any or all of these musings. At any rate, it seems to me, that any person who aspires towards trying to shift their awareness away from dualistic thinking and behaviors, might be advised to start working towards loosening the tight grip of the ego as 'commander in chief', and reducing our associated egocentric driven attitudes and behaviors. Perhaps this is what some refer to as developing 'de', or virtue. Not sure if 'de' is the appropriate term, as there seem to be various interpretations of what 'de' refers to in the dao de jing and in different 'daoist' schools of thought, for example. However, working towards developing the qualities of virtue and selflessness seems to me to be a good practical way which any person can employ towards the goal of loosening the tight grip of the ego, and that may well be why various cultivation systems put a lot of emphasis on such. Anyway, that is just some ideas I personally have about such things. At any rate, trying to be more understanding and tolerant of other points of view and approaches in this world, can't really be such a 'bad' thing no matter what a person's goals may be, I would think. Probably it would be better to state such things in a more concise and simple way, but achieving simplicity in an effective way in all matters is not always so easy to achieve. All the best in your journeys...

This is my point of view. I may well be wrong on any or all points. The ego's main function is to interact with and assist us to 'perceive' the world of opposites. The ego in conjunction with our physical senses can help us interface to and function within the world of opposites. Our ego assists us with differentiating things like what is up and what is down, what is east and what is west, what is positive and what is negative, etc. When we want to perceive the world of opposites, we employ the ego to assist us. The ego also provides us with a separate sense of self within the world of opposites. I am not this. I am not that. I am not you. You are not me. However, when one mistakes the ego for the self, one tends to put much too much emphasis on the ego, and the ego begins to become more and more imbalanced. The ego can then become a very overbearing and jealous ruler. An imbalanced ego can lead us to believe that only the way we perceive and understand things at any point in time is 'right', and everything else is 'wrong'. The ego loves to debate. The ego wants to always be 'right'. The ego takes great delight in singling out and putting down and dismissing that which differs from one's current views and beliefs. Such behavior helps the ego to shore up and fortify our beliefs and views. Our core beliefs and views form our world view. A stable world view gives us comfort, and allows us to function without always having to analyze and question everything. A stable world view is a practical tool for helping us function more efficiently in the world of opposites. We should keep in mind, however, that our views and beliefs regarding the world of opposites are formed under the 'guidance' of the ego to help provide us with a stable framework, but our beliefs and views are not necessarily at all 'right'. Is a chair right or wrong? Is a boat right or wrong? A tool is a tool. A tool has a function. A tool's function is to assist us. A tool, in itself, has nothing to do with right or wrong. Beliefs and views are tools. Their function is to provide us with a more stable framework to function within, in the world of opposites. We our not our ego. The ego is also only a tool. The ego is like virtual reality goggles. The ego provides us with an interface to a world of opposites. The ego is a very imperfect tool, however; and it can easily lead us far astray if we put too much emphasis on the ego. We can't function in this world of opposites without our ego, but we should not mistake the ego for the self. The ego is a tool employed by the self. What is the self, then? That is a whole other matter. A question no doubt asked by many throughout the ages. Can the self exist outside of the world of opposites? I do not have an answer for you. We employ techniques like meditation to try to find answers to such questions. Meditation involves putting aside or turning off the ego, so we can perceive what may be 'outside' of the world of opposites. 'Outside' is only a term of convenience used to refer to that which can't be described in words. That which can't be named. That which can't be conceived of by the ego. In such pursuits, the ego only gets in the way, because such a pursuit is outside of the ego's function and usefulness. Where do you want to focus your energy? In shoring up one's world view? In negativity and judgement of other views and approaches which differ from your own? That seems like a waste of time and energy to me. Would it not be more useful if a person focuses their energy on positive pursuits? On that which has value to them? Don't tell me what you think is bad. Tell me what is you have found to be good based on your own personal experience. That is much more useful to me. I don't have any answers about what is ultimately of value and what is ultimately not of value. I can only focus on and pursue that which proves to have value to me at any point in time. I am just a human. I am not all-seeing and all-knowing. I don't have any absolute answers.

Some say there are at least as many ways to 'achieve dao' / 'become enlightened' as their are stars in the universe. I don't know. However, that is a lot of cultivation methods to consider all at once, if we want to compare them and debate them and find the very best method of them all. So, I took a small 2D slice of dao and drew it on a map. On the map I drew in the different cultivation methods which exist in that particular area of dao which is depicted by my map. My map is not quite to scale, but it is as accurate as I can get it. Can someone tell me which cultivation method illustrated on my map is the best method (or only correct method) for achieving dao? Which method is the worst? Yes, I am not completely serious. If we take life and our self too seriously, we might get too many wrinkles.

Hello Awaken. In English, 'self-cultivation' can be used fairly loosely just to mean improving oneself in various ways. Whether one is doing some sort of practice which helps with their health, or state of mind, or emotional state, or ability to be calm and relaxed, etc., it could still apply. At any rate, I was really referring to how as long as whatever a person is practicing seems to be proving beneficial to them, then, in my own view, that is good. Realistically, I think most of us are not going to be merging with dao any time soon, although, as soon as I post that, one or more people may step forward and insist that I am completely wrong, and that if I just follow the 'right way' (their way) I will be an immortal or enlightened one in no time.

Hello Lairg. I would think not, but, then again, I didn't suggest in any way that people should not try different things to find something that is suitable for them.

Hello Master Logray. Who said so? That person must be kind of anti-social.

Why in ancient times did internal alchemy and neigong teachers keep their methods hidden, and why were they very careful about who they might teach such practices to? One likely answer is many people in this world are prone to all kinds of imbalances and excesses and immoral behavior. Internal alchemy and similar practices has a tendency to amplify such imbalances and excesses in such people's personality and behavior, and the end result can be quite bad. Likewise for a student interested in learning such practices, if the teacher does not appear to be well balanced and stable and ethical, etc., why would you want to learn from them?

Hello Chesire Cat. I am personally very cautious about drawing definite conclusions about what is being said in such old writings, for the reasons that have been explained. However, I don't think it is being suggested here that in neigong or meditation one shouldn't ever 'see light', or that there are not various different types of phenomena which can occur at certain points in one's progression. Some systems may not put too much emphasis on such things or may even direct the student to pay no attention to them at all, and other systems may put more emphasis on such things. I think there may well be certain types of phenomena which one can experience at certain stages as they progress in a given system, which, within the context of that specific system, could be viewed as sign posts, but I also think it would probably not be advisable for a student to read too much into such things without the guidance of an experienced practitioner in that particular system. It is often warned that if one practices neidan or similar types of practices on their own, it is easy to make wrong assumptions and get on the wrong track. I think it is probably good practice to be very cautious about making assumptions.

I have just re-read through this whole thread from the start to the current end. My impressions are that much of the content is very chaotic and imbalanced. My concern is that if people who are interested in daoist cultivation practices read through this thread, I think they would likely come away with a very bad impression overall. It might very well appear to them that 'internal alchemy' practice and similar leads to a practitioner having a very imbalanced and obsessive mind/ego and very chaotic and combative 'energy'. From my own limited understanding of the dao de jing, some characteristics of 'dao' in its 'manifestation' include such characteristics as humility, simplicity, naturalness, and balance. Therefore, one might expect someone who has made some some real progress in daoist or similar cultivation, whatever the cultivation system, to embody some of those characteristics to some noticeable extent. We are all human beings, and we all have human faults, but I think it is reasonable to expect that someone who has made some real progress in 'self cultivation' to show some actual noticeable refinement in their behavior and actions and outlook, otherwise what is the point of self cultivation? My suggestion to people who may be interested in daoist or other cultivation systems is, try to get to know any given teacher for some time before making a decision about whether you really want to commit to learning from them long term. The old adage that 'actions speak louder than words', is very wise, IMO.

Hello Chesire Cat. As has already been mentioned here previously, one should be aware that books on daoist internal alchemy and similar practices typically contain a lot of symbolism, and therefore one should be very cautious of literal interpretations. Internal alchemy and similar cultivation practices were traditionally taught in person from teacher to student, and the teacher would explain the hidden meanings to the student when the student is ready to comprehend it, based on the student's current stage and achievement level. Their can apparently be different layers of meaning 'encoded' within the symbolism used.

鞏三孝, good clear information about the concept of 'black liver'. As you mentioned, Daoist writings on neidan can contain layer upon layer of very confusing symbolism. The actual concepts behind the confusing symbolism, it seems, are usually (sometimes?) not so complicated to understand once it it explained in straightforward language. Dear Awaken, your comments are interesting as well, but I find it is harder to understand what you mean to say when too much symbolism is used. All the best

No problem, either way. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. All the best.

I can't imagine any living person who 'only has qi in their lower abdomen'. 'Lower abdomen' / 'lower dantian' and similar concepts means different things in different systems, and can be used in different ways in different systems. Therefore, IMO, it is not advisable to generalize about such things. For example, in some martial arts the concept of lower dantian can be used a fair bit differently than in some self cultivation systems. Some martial arts may or may not use specific focuses and breathing practices to achieve a specific result. Any focuses and practices employed may change over time depending on one's achievement level and the specific aims at any point in the progression. Likewise, some self cultivation systems may or may not use specific focuses and breathing practices to achieve a specific result. Any focuses and practices employed may change over time depending on one's achievement level and the specific aims at any point in the progression. In some of the self cultivation systems I have personally encountered, 'lower dantian', 'middle dantian', 'upper dantian' are used as a stepping stone. Such tools may be used only temporarily at certain 'points' along the way. Those systems which emphasize naturalness, tend to be more suitable to me, personally, but others' mileage may vary. Dear Awaken, to say it a different way, and in my own personal opinion only, you would do better to focus on talking only about that which you have have personal experience of, rather than denigrating various other approaches which you seem to have a poor understanding of, in order to try to raise up your personal approach as being the 'best' or 'the only correct way'. If you want to single out a specific practice or system which you have direct personal experience, which you believe from your personal experience is harmful or a waste of time, feel free to speak your mind. I am not referring to that sort of thing. However, IMO, using broad generalizations to denigrate all other 'Daoist' cultivation approaches which differ from your preferred personal approach, is actually only working against you. All the best.

I do not know what 'rule' you might be referring to. I only made an observation based on my own personal experience. I have never met any sort of 'master' who was not just a ordinary person with various human faults, despite any particular talent or skills they might possess. Why do you think anonymous strangers on the internet or otherwise would be any different? Feel free to keep on slagging if it makes you feel better however.