Iskote

ChiDragon, I don't agree with your assessment of fajin being limited to emitting force mainly using tendons and muscles. According to what I understood from some comments made by some taiji masters, that is apparently considered lower level or even undesired practice by some at least. Where some of the confusion may arise is some masters may use the term fajin (issuing force or strength) but they seem not to be referring to issuing force based on muscle or tendon use. They really seem to be talking about something beyond that. So although the same term may be used (fajin), they seem to be talking about a different kind of skill. There seems to be various references to this type of higher skill in taiji in the taiji classics where it emphasizes that mind (or will) leads qi and the body follows. Two quite famous and very noteworthy students of Cheng Man Ching, which I have researched somewhat, Benjamin Lo and Huang Xingxiang, seem to be of this school of thought of emphasizing very soft and relaxed taiji, and placing emphasis on the mind leading qi as the main training focus. T. T. Liang, another Cheng Man Ching student, also seems to have followed this same emphasis, I believe. Maybe I should not have brought up the term fajin, since it really can be just a generic term about issuing force and doesn't really necessarily have anything to do with specific fajin exercises that some schools of taiji practice. Anyway, there does seem to be some major differences in the emphasis and the way that some taji teachers teach the form, is what I am getting at.

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I am going to say something that some people might find controversial or even heresy, but here it is anyway. While fajin training probably has different levels of achievement and skill, there are some taiji masters who seem to feel that such practices are still lower level practices. Taiji takes many years to gain even some degree of proficiency in, so in the mean time during all those years before you reach a high level (if you ever reach a high level ) you still need some practical self defense skills. Fajin is therefore like intermediate skills training, where you are learning to use your qi in combination with body coordination and alignment and also train and make use of a sort of tendon and muscle kind of elastic force as well. At higher levels (not many at all get there it seems) taiji masters don't need to use fajin to emit force. They can direct their qi immediately to any part of their body in various ways, and also at the same time redirect an opponent's own force back to the opponent at the same time, and thus send an opponent flying with seemingly little to no movement or effort. Some taiji masters don't even seem to bother with teaching fajin and just start by training and emphasizing total relaxation and the mind controlling qi connection right from the start. Regarding this, does anyone know for certain if Cheng Man Ching ever taught fajin?

This is because when stepping in taiji you should be always stepping with your empty leg. You can sink and be rooted in one leg while your are light (empty) in your stepping in your other leg. In this way you can be both rooted and light and agile at the same time. This is why it is important to always clearly distinguish between yin and yang (insubstantial and substantial) in taiji. The principles of taiji really aren't so mysterious or hard to understand. However putting those principles correctly into practice at all times so that it becomes second nature is where the tricky part is, and that requires many years of practice for most people.

I remember "Mak Tin Si" (Mak Jo Si) from when he used to post here a few years back, so after seeing this thread I was curious what he is up to now and did some searching on Tin Yat and Mak Jo Si and found this exchange going on in another forum. Read through the following thread on that forum. Mak Jo Si's and some of his sect member's comments are quite eye opening to say the least. I thought I was reading a copy of a script from Goodfellas or The Godfather there for a while. Mama mia! The thread starts off sounding fairly reasonable, but if you read right through the entire thread it really is an eye opener. Mak Jo Si or Tin Yat Lineage Taoism Q and A http://taouncut.forum.com.bz/t31-mak-jo-si-or-tin-yat-lineage-taoism-q-and-a

Warning Bell # 1: About Waysun Liao - Facebook Hmm, learned from a nameless "wandering taoist" (in Taiwan no less) and learned in a nameless "Taoist temple" since he was 12. Anyone have any names and details to go with this? Warning Bell # 2: A quick search on Waysun Liao to try to find some details of his past training: http://www.marnixwells.com/?p=267 Hmm, so back in 1969 Liao Weishan, was a student at the Political University in Muzha in Taiwan, and he studied "south Fujiàn style of Springing Crane (Zonghè)" when he was growing up. "(In 1970) Liao pointed out to Marnix the thirty-four powers or energies (jìng/jìn) described in Chén Yanlín’s 1936 Tàijíquán True Transmission. Liào was to translate these in Tai Chi Classics (1977, reprinted by Shambala)." Yep, sounds like the same Liao alright, but he had studied Springing Crane, which also has a form of push hands, AKA sticking hands. May well have had some qigong or neigong training as well in this system. "He eventually set up a Taichi Center in Illinois under the name Master Waysun Liao." Seems to be the same Liao, except his specialty was apparently Springing Crane back then, not "Temple Tai Chi". No mention of a "wandering Taoist" or "Taoist Temple" either back in those university days either. Maybe he neglected to mention it... Warning Bell # 3: Gregory James Temple Tai Chi I'll let this speak for itself. Warning Bell # 4: Asking big bucks to learn his tai chi system from DVD's? It looks like quite the money making machine... Sorry, but 4 warning bells with just a few quick searches is a lot. This is not to say Mr. Liao does not have some real training and does not have some real skills, but the whole background story here seems to be at least questionable. Seeking power and super abilities will not likely ever lead anyone down a real spiritual path, but it might lead you into troubles or disappointments you may have never dreamed of. If it goes against good sense and all the facts don't add up, then something may well not be right. When we are ruled by our desires and ego we willingly blind ourself. Well, it seemed to me at least someone needed to at least raise some of these obvious questions. If answers arise that can withstand some scrutiny then at least a person is making a more informed decision, but if a person keeps their self-imposed blinders on regardless of the facts they may well be opening the door to some hard lessons further down the road. At least the matter has been raised. Everyone has to make their own decision. Ok, I have spoken my piece.

More Pie Guy, also just for your information, it seems it is also recommended that a person should break off all contact with the person who they think is doing 'black magic' against them. So if you except this as a reasonable precaution, don't go to this person's website any further and even close out your old email address if they have it, and get yourself a new email address and don't give the new one out except to people you know you can trust. Do not try to contact this person any further for any reason. Close off all contact with this person in whatever way you can. If they try to contact you by phone or letter, just hang up or throw the letter out without reading it. That is the advice anyway. I know you say you don't really believe in such things, but I just thought I would pass this information along, as you say, just in case. If you do happen to feel anything negative or just feel nervous whether just from of your own subconscious making or not, you can try chanting the Medicine Buddha mantra for protection and for generating and sending out strong positive vibes: Tayadta, Om Bekanze Bekanze Maha Bekanze Radza Samudgate Soha The letter 'e' on the end of the words above is pronounced as 'ay' (like in day). The above is the Tibetan Buddhist pronunciation. The above is the short version of this mantra. There are some examples of chanting this mantra on youtube. This can help to counteract any negative energy, whether your own or otherwise, with strong positive vibes. It is said that the more faith one has the more effective mantras will be.

I stated in my previous post that Taoist Fu must be created and activated by a Taoist using a special procedure and ceremony. One can't just simply draw a Fu themself or print them out from a picture. Fu must be obtained directly from the Taoist who makes them. I just posted the pictures for interest's sake.

I can't vouch for the efficacy of any of the following; this is just for your information: (Taoist Talismans (Fu) must be created and 'activated' by a Taoist using special practices and ceremonies to be able to work). Wilson Yong: Wilson Yong will make Taoist Fu (Talismans) for a donation. Here is his website: Taoist Talismans Here's a picture of Wilson Yong's Talisman to protect against black magic and sorcery: Here's a picture of his Talisman for protection against accidents and malevolent spirits: Here's some pictures of Wilson Yong doing the ceremony to activate some Fu: Mak Jo Si: Mak Jo Si's stuff is kind of er... untraditional in various ways, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his Fu do not work. He claims to have derived all of his practices and Taoist knowledge from Taoist Deities. (Again, this is just for your info. I can't say whether either of these two can provide effective Fu). Mak Jo Si (formerly used the title Mak Tin Si) offers various Fu for protection against black magic: Sorcery Counterstrike Good luck.

I think virtue can be viewed as an indication or manifestation of a person's state of being or state of awareness or level of cultivation, but it can also be intentionally put into action as a way to further progress in one's spiritual cultivation, for those who are working on their cultivation. For example, in Buddhism we have the idea of gaining merit by actively practicing virtue, and there seem to be similar concepts in other spriritual traditions, although it may be expressed differently. The general idea seems to be that by actively practicing virtue one gains merit and this assists one in their spiritual cultivation progress. This then is an actual form of cultivation practice. The more one progresses in this practice, the more it becomes a natural expression of one's state of being. So I think there is more than one way of looking at it. Best wishes from Iskote...

I see. It was no doubt interesting to get the academic perspective at any rate. Thanks again for posting and Happy New Year to you as well! Best wishes...

Thanks for posting this. Was there much in the conference in the way of actual practicing Taoists giving presentations? Best wishes...

Hello friend. Where have you heard the term 'jun ren'? In Confucianism there is a term 君子, jūnzǐ, which translates literally as 'lord's son', and which means something like 'exemplary person' or 'noble person'. In Confucianism, a jūnzǐ is a person of exemplary virtue in the Confucian sense. Could this be the term you are thinking of? Best wishes...

Hi Ya Mu. No worries. Merry Christmas... Best wishes...

Hi Ya Mu. I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive. Just trying to understand. I was thrown off by your use of the term 'standing wave' in the context you were describing, so that is why I was trying to get more details. It's not overly important to me. No need to be on the defensive. Best wishes...

Hi Ya Mu. You have lost me here. Nowhere did I say anything was incorrect. I was just asking questions about how exactly measurements were done and what was the reasoning that lead to the conclusions you mentioned. I was also just expressing my own personal view that we have to be careful about drawing conclusions too quickly. I wasn't saying that anything is necessarily wrong nor was I questioning anyone's knowledge. I was just adding my personal views on the subject. I am going to back out of this thread here. Sometimes I forget how personally involved and commited people can be with their views and beliefs and how easily people can become offended when someone just asks a few questions or expresses a view that is different than what they believe. To me views on such matters are just views and I wouldn't be offended at all if someone raised questions about my views or expressed opposing views. I think I get what you were saying about how you view qi now. Your further comments cleared that up for me. Best wishes...

Hi Ya Mu. That's interesting. I wouldn't say that not using a faraday cage would invalidate the experiment, just that you wouldn't be able to draw any definite conclusions from the results. I would view that more as an informal preliminary or exploratory experiment. I am not quite sure why you are using the term standing wave as that normally would only occur if there were a summation of two or more coinciding fields or signals producing an interference pattern. Also still not sure what exactly you were measuring. Were you measuring electric or magnetic field strengths or both, or what exactly? Just wondering why you concluded that you were measuring an EM field? Any way, its not overly important if you don't feel like going into further detail. Ok on your interpretations of your results. I personally wouldn't be so quick to draw the conclusion that manifested effects are necessarily intrinsic components of qi, rather than just simply manifested effects, just as we don't assume fire is part of lightning because lightning can produce fire when it strikes trees or buildings. It would seem you view qi as being no different than the energy that scientists study? That's an interesting perspective. It is interesting to see all the different perspectives that people have regarding qi in reading through this thread. I personally am quite content with just having a very loose idea of what qi is as I really think that it can't be fully understood through rational analysis. I guess I just ascribe more to the traditional approach to it all since that has seemed to work for a long time already, but I don't discount that science may have something valuable to contribute as well. Some people are automatically put off by science because they feel it is something that will always be in conflict with their traditional views and beliefs , but I don't think that is necessarily so at all. Best wishes...

As always, best wishes to all, and may all your thoughts be good ones...

Hello Tao99. I actually think it is the other way around. Viewing qi as 'energy' that can take different forms and behave in different ways kind of covers all the bases of how qi is thought of and used in qigong and related practices, and terms such as 'vital energy' and 'subtle energy' etc, are how most teachers seem to describe qi. In philosophy qi may take on more abstract definitions. Again, however one wants to look at it, I think the important thing is to not get too attached to the concepts for reasons I have already stated... Best wishes...

Hello Ya Mu. I agree that athough we can give it a name and we can describe some of its effects and behaviour that we can observe and feel, it still does not tell us what qi is. Without knowing all the specific details of your experiment and what exact measuring equipment you were using to make your measurements and all that good stuff, it is of course not possible to comment about your results. However, there is a very distinct difference between saying qi is electromagnetic energy and saying electromagnetic energy can be manifested by qi. If by manipulating qi one can set up a measurable electromagnetic field, is the electromagnetic field a created effect (or manifestation) or is it a component of qi itself? Those are two very different things, and you can't draw any quick conclusion just simply because an electromagnetic field was measured. Also, these days with almost every bit of physical space on Earth being constantly radiated from all kinds of electromagnetic sources such as radio stations, satellites, cell phone towers, cell phones, wifi routers, etc. to do a controlled experiment you would really have to conduct such experiments in a faraday cage to eliminate skewed results and artifacts from all the external electromagnetic sources that are out there. To say that qi is electromagnetic energy is different than saying electromagnetic energy is a component of qi, and it is also different again to say that qi can manifest electromagnetic energy or infrasonic effects, etc. Based on the results of any formal scientific experiments I have read about so far, I would say it would seem it is more likely the latter case, that qi can manifest various physical effects, but qi itself is not those physical phenomena. All that aside, I would be interested in hearing more details about how you conducted your experiment and how you measured the electromagnetic field, if you have the time and are interested in sharing more details here. Anyway, I think for all intents and purposes it is sufficient to think of qi as some form of 'energy' which itself can take different forms and behave in different ways. That works for me anyway. Hello Steam. When someone states that qi is electricity or an electromagnetic field, or ascribes any other physical components to it, then we should be able to verify that fairly easily by using the appropriate measuring equipment under controlled conditions, assuming the magnitudes are within a range that can be measured by existing equipment. It is also quite different to say that qi can manifest measurable electric or electromagnetic effects, etc. than to say that these are actual components of qi or that is what qi is. Very different things. Best wishes...

I'm not a physicist, but from the point of view of physical science I believe it would be correct to say that everything is energy, and matter is just one form (or maybe state?) that energy can take. However, I don't know about your statement that "matter is energy vibrating at frequencies that manifiest form"? The formula E=MC^2 does not have any reference to frequency in it. Anyway that is nieither here nor there. Getting back to the main topic of this thread, does knowing that everything in this world is really just a form of energy make even the slightest difference about the questions: What is qi? What is energy? Is qi the same as energy, or is energy just one 'form' that qi can manifiest? You still end up no further along after all the analysis as far as I can see anyway. That's where meditation comes in I believe. Instead of continuiing to bang our head against a brick wall, we can instead let go and let the brick wall just dissolve away, or something like that anyway. Best wishes...

Hello L1. To be clear, I am not against the use of the rational mind. I am just saying that in my opinion its use is limited. We can use the rational mind to understand how to do the postures in qigong or meditation correctly, and we can use our rational mind to get some understanding of what steps we may need to follow at various stages, and to get at least some sort of an idea of what it is we can expect to acheive in our practice, and also to be aware of things we may need to watch out for in our practice to avoid potential problems. I agree it can be helpful at first to have at least some degree of conceptual understanding of what we are working with, and what is going on inside us, but if we try to take the analysis and attachment to the idea too far I think we couldl just end up leading ourself astray or even hindering our progress, since we are putting too much focus on the concepts, which I think can be a real hinderance to the process which should unfold naturally and without interference and attachment by the mind. I think the Tao Te Ching also does comment on the importance of freeing ourself from attachments. Perhaps it is for that reason. Different traditions have taken different approaches, but it is the results that are important. If one is confident that the approach they are taking is bringing real results, that is all that matters as far as I am concerned. The question is though, can we recognize what is real progress and what is just wishful thinking when we are still at the lower stages? I guess that is where we have to place our trust in our teacher and our intuition on what we feel is right... Best wishes to all and may all your thoughts be good ones...

Yes, I imagine if a person were quite drunk they might end up translating it that way... Perhaps openness to that which is beyond our preconceptions is what you are looking for? By loosening our tight grip on our preconceptions we can open ourselves up to new possibilities for understanding. Best wishes...

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