Iskote

Can you provide further details on what the different levels are and what the three different forms of the MCO are? I am not clear on what you mean here. What do you mean by the 'spin'? Best Wishes...

Hello 'TianhuaQigong'. Welcome to the Tao Bums forum! Best wishes from Iskote...

Ha ha! Nothing like starting out with ancient abstruse Taoist poetry which even native Chinese speakers might have trouble understanding and translating! I really have no idea what this poem means at all, but I'll take a stab at it anyway for a laugh. No doubt my translation is not even close. I couldn't make heads or tales out of much of it: Li Qing Temple Taoist Poetry Quite fond of the Yuan Dynasty Li Qing Taoist Temple (Chinese Poetry collected works) in Taoist poem, it is said: I cultivate the original clear void Ancient and modern are delicately strung together In order to become tired of fame and fortune and excess and further having mud within the non-spiritual excessive wasteland, a wanderer through the ancient and modern, cannot also be. OK, I know my tranlsation makes no sense. Now if you can please post the proper translation into English so I can see how it should be translated? Anyone else want to take a crack at this? Best wishes...

Hi Yoda. Thanks for the clarification. So it is really a general discussion area regarding the Chinese language, and helping people who want to learn it, and not really so much about Taoist theory and related? Since the main Taoist discussion forum here is about general discussion of a wide range of topics, it seems to me that it mght be nice to limit this forum's discussion topics to learning and understanding and discussing Chinese as it relates directly to Taoism and Taoist theory and practices. It seems to me that by limiting the discussion topics, the forum would then be more useful for people who are struggling with Taoist terms and concepts and theory in Chinese, and who want to get a better understanding of such. If the topic of this forum is just discussing Chinese and discussions in Chinese, then maybe the forum name should be changed to something like Chinese Language Discussion (中文讨论) or something like that. Personally I would find a forum that is restricted to understanding and discussing Chinese terms, theory, and writings as directly relates to Taoism very useful. Without having to sift through all kinds of other off topic posts one could focus on getting a better understanding of Chinese as it relates Taoism, and thus hopefully gain a better understanding of Taoism It sounds like others here would like the forum to be a general Chinese language discussion forum from what you are saying though. Either way, it should be helpful for those trying get a better understanding of Chinese. By the way, what does 'Tao Toe' mean? I assume that is Cantonese? Best wishes...

Hi Sean. Sounds good although I am still not clear what the exact the purpose of this forum is. I would translate " 道家学说" as 'Taoist Theory', but I am just a beginner student in Chinese. Can you elaborate a bit on what the purpose of ths forum is? Is it meant to help clarify Taoist terms, concepts, theory and writings from their original Chinese to English? Or is it meant as a Taoist discussion area in the Chinese language? Best wishes... [Edit: Tried to clarify my question. ]

I see. It never hurts to be prepared. Taoism is first and foremost a religion in China so they may well have some equivalent in Taoism to what Amitabha Buddha and Jesus are supposed to have promised. Deep faith or belief and complete sincerity seems to be a prerequisite though. It's a very personal thing, no doubt. P.S., It might be just as well to think about slowing right down on your bike. Tiime will catch up with us all soon enough. No point tempting fate. Best wishes... (yes I {Mal} accidentally hit edit rather than "reply. I apologize for any confusion this may cause) [iskote: Not a problem Mal. I just re-edited to put my smilies back in though. They dropped out. I like my smilies... ]

I see. Thanks for the update on Cai Song Fang. I'm sure you should be able to track down some of his students in Macau. The 'Wushu General Association of Macau' is apparently located at the 'Macao Victory Road Victory Sports Center'. Maybe some of the Wuji Qigong folks teach at that location as well. Best wishes...

Nice. Yes, he obviously has a lot of internal skill. I didn't know that he was now in Shanghai, but I saw a reference to people visiting him there recently so I was wondering if maybe he was living there now. He must be getting up there in years now. Is he still teaching regularly do you know? Best wishes...

If you really want to get in touch with the Wuji Qigong Health Research Association in Macau, (無極氣功（澳門）保健研究會) they are listed as being a member of the 'Wushu General Association of Macau'. You could try emailing Fu Jiangning at [email protected], or by phone at (853) 28,567,873 to see if he can provide some contact info for you for the Wuji Qigong Health Research Association in Macau. A quick search showed that they are still teaching classes in the Macau area. Best wishes...

Hi baguakid. I did a check on macauwuji.com and it looks like that domain was not renewed before its expiry date on Sept 4, 2009, and its current status is set to 'Pending Delete'. It looks like that website is no longer up and running. You may already be aware of it, but there are a few books in English that have info about Cai Songfang's wuji shi zhan zhuang practice. One is "WuJiShi Breathing Exercise", and another is "Warriors of Stillness" by Jan Diepersloot, who also studied under Cai Songfang to some extent. "Warriors of Stillness" is supposed to be based mainly on the specific teachings of Cai Song Fang. see: http://www.warriorsofstillness.com/shop/co...257709551.22841 These books are carried by Plum Publishing at: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/collbk_yiquan.htm You can probably get these books elsewhere as well. The book "WuJiShi Breathing Exercise" focuses mainly on the health/healing benefits of the practice, while the books by Jan Diepersloot focus more on the martial arts uses of the practice. Jan's books go into a lot of detail on technical points about physical alignment and what not, while the book "WuJiShi Breathing Exercise" just gets right to the point of how to stand without too much fuss and analysis, and also provides some background info and also includes a number of 'case studies' on various health problems that have been helped by people practicing wuji shi under Cai Songfang in the Guangzhou area in China. [Note added later:] I found a four part video on youtube of Cai Song Fang (Tsai Sung Fang) 蔡松芳 demostrating push hands. Cai Song Fang teaches his students to mainly practice wuji shi to develop internal power and sensitivity, and to practice push hands to hone their martial skills. He may not even teach the tai chi moving form at all from what I gather, or he at least gives it less emphasis. At any rate you can see in the video that Cai Song Fang is a very sturdy guy and very skillful at push hands. This is a very similar philosophy as taught by the yiquan and dachengquan crowd; i.e., that lots of practice of zhan zhuang is the best way to develop a high level of internal power. Best wishes...

Hi buscon. I wouldn't worry about it too much. From what I have seen, in the first year or two of practice it is not uncommon for people to be a little too tense when practicing because they are focusing a lot on trying to do the movements and postures right and what not. Sometimes we think we are relaxing but actually we are holding tension in various places without realizing it. I'd say just try to relax as much as you can when practicing and don't dwell on it too much, and the circulation to your hands should start improving on its own over time. If your room is cold, that will definitely be a factor as well. If you are doing practices that involve a lot of deliberate tension such as hard style qigong or kung fu, then I can't really offer much advice on that. Doing some repetitive calisthenic type movements that stimulate the blood circulation to the arms, such as jumping jacks and the like, as a warm up before practicing might help as well if your room is really cold. Best wishes...

The spiritual practices that can be named are not the real name. More seriously, cultivating virtue, helping others whenever you can, and calming and relaxing the mind/body as best you can while sitting, standing, walking, or lying down are practices that have been cited by some as being essential in spiritual cultivation from the Taoist perspective. The Tao Te Ching goes into further detail. IMO, you can't separate spiritual cultivation from any other aspect of your life whatsoever. Best wishes...

Hi exorcist. What is the source of your statement that Zhao deliberately reversed and mixed some steps? Can you provide any further details regarding some steps being reversed and mixed in the book? Best wishes...

A few final comments. This is all just from my own personal perspective and experience. From my own limited understanding, the underlying essence of taoism has always been about spiritual cultivation. By spiritual cultivation I mean it includes cultivation at all levels, i.e., body, mind, and spirit, inside and outside. This means cultivation involves every aspect of a person's life, including interaction with others and our relationship with the 'world' around us. Really from this perspective, dividing lines such as body, mind, and spirit, inside and outside, and self and others, etc. are just distinctions of convenience as they are really all parts of the whole that is being cultivated. One attempts to cultivate in such a way that is always natural and harmonious with the whole. As we all know, there are many out there who like to represent themselves as experts and even 'masters' of taoism or tao, and they can be encountered just about anywhere, i.e., both in the East and the West. Obviously it would then be advisable to use some degree of discretion when considering who to seek out as a guide or teacher. One should keep in mind that just because someone is fairly accomplished at some form of qigong or martial arts or whatever other practices, and claims some connection to taoism or tao, does not necessarily mean at all that such a person is a true cultivator of taoism, or tao or the way, or whatever you want to call it. Likewise, just because someone wears a taoist uniform and/or claims a taoist lineage of some sort, also does not necessarily mean that they are a true cultivator of taoism or tao or the way. Of course no one is perfect, and we all display various faults of one sort or another, but let's face it, if a person is presenting themselves as some sort of expert, teacher, or master on taoism or tao, and they are often arrogant, egotistical, abrasive, overly judgemental or critical of others, or overly concerned with making money, or often seem to be trying to promote or represent themselves as some sort of expert or authority then, from my perspective anyway, you are not going to ever be able to learn much of anything about taoism or true taoist principles and practices from such a person. If a person doesn't embody basic taoist principles, at least to some extent or other, then how can one say that they are a true cultivator of taoism or taoist principles? Now you may be able to learn and progress to some extent or other in some form of qigong or martial arts from such a person, but this in no way necessarily means one is cultivating the way, or taoist principles, or taoism, or whatever you want to call it. There are always those who ignore such warning signs for whatever reasons, so just because such self proclaimed or self represented experts/teachers/masters may have a following to some degree or other also in no way means such a person is genuinely cultvating the way or teaching taoism or taoist principles. Although such things may be obvious to those who have been at this for a while, it seems to me that it never hurts to remind ourselves of such things from time to time to help keep things in perspective and to hopefully help guide us along our way. Again, this is all just from my own personal perspective and personal experience, and I realize other peoples' experience and views may be different. I just thought I would throw this out there anyway, for what it is worth. Best wishes from Iskote, and may all your thoughts be good ones...

Generalizations always have exceptions. I mainly posted the excerpts from Eva Wong's book because it provided some useful background info on how the Wu Liu sect came into being. As always, if someone goes on record as saying one thing, there will always be others who disagree. From what I have seen anyway, making any statements about Taoism, or any other topic for that matter, in a public forum is almost certain to bring about disagreement. Anyway, people who are at least somewhat familiar with the history of Taoism tend to naturally take anything written about it with a grain of salt. Others who are less familiar tend to start catching on fast. However, this applies to anything in life really, so it is not anything new. Best wishes...

I just had a chance to do a quick peruse of that website. Lots of very good info on there on internal alchemy and related practices. It seems it is run by the same folks who run the other Damo Qigong/ internal alchemy website at http://www.damo-qigong.net/. I see they are offering internal alchemy workshops in June and September 2010. Probably something well worth looking into for someone who is seriously interested in practicing internal alchemy. [Note added later:] The curriculum for the workshops looks like it is pretty demanding, with a lot of material and practices crammed into the 17 days for the workshops. It looks like it will be quite the experience! The people running the workshop are listed as: Master Hu Master Guan Master Zhang Jia Lee and the group guide is listed as: Italo Cillo. The bios for these people are listed here: http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/workshops-2010-faculty The bio for Italo Cillo is quite interesting. Best wishes from Iskote...

In my view, Taoism is not so much about the outward form, but the inner experience. I believe this is where much of the confusion lies. Taoism is about spiritual cultivation. Those who truly embrace such practices reflect this in their very being. It can't be put on. Our actions and attitudes define who we really are. Best wishes...

Ha ha. I am guessing you have had a very bad day. Your view seems more than a liitle rigid and somewhat unrealistic to me. You should try relaxing more. I have yet to run across one teacher who taught in exactly the same way as any other teacher. If the Tao is anything, it is fluid. If everythng is of Tao, then everything we do, feel and experience is of Tao. Taking a rigid view that only what one has experienced in their own limited view is Tao, and everything else is not is, well, just plain limiting. I don't claim to know in any way what Tao is, but from what I see it has been expressed in many different ways by many. Have a good evening mi amigo and best wishes...

Don't ask me. I just posted some info on it because I think it provides some further context on where the internal alchemy described in the book 'Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality' was coming from. Really the more one delves into Taoism the more one realizes how it was constantly evolving and changing form. The outward form anyway. The inner experiences gleaned may all head in the same general direction though, I really wouldn't know. Regarding the Taoist concept of cultivating both the mind and body, it makes me wonder where the mind ends and the body begins. The more I ponder, the more I just want to cultivate stillness. Have a good week everyone, and best wishes...

YM, with all due respect, I have seen you try to 'correct' people about things here in discussions (i.e. teach) and I have seen you add your views and opinions about Taoism and qigong as well; as you are doing here. You have your views and experience and you express them, as do others. It is called discussion. I do believe people do sometimes learn something from such discussions, even if it is only at a more superficial level. Nevertheless it may still help to guide someone and possibly help them from making mistakes further down the road. So it can serve a useful purpose at least sometimes, in my view. If people didn't ever learn anything valuable from discussing things, it is doubtful that languages would have evolved to the level that they have, IMO. For example, if one knows what to watch out for and what to avoid in certain practices ahead of time, they may be able to avoid problems/mistakes when they run into such things in their actual practice. I have no doubt that accomplished masters would not waste their time giving lectures to students and writing books and guidelines, etc. if they didn't beleve it couldn't accomplish anything of value. That just would not make any sense. Regarding your other comment, it is not uncommon in Taoist teachings/literature to come across the concept of moving qi, whether through intention or just through its natural function. Your comment that "It is actually by all this much 'talking' about 'moving qi' etc. that modern day 'masters' trick so many gullibles ..." seems a somewhat one sided view. I understand from other things you have posted that you may not ascribe to such concepts, and it may not be a part of your tradition/experience, and that is perfectly fine, but it does reflect my own personal experience. When one experiences the flow of energy from one hand to another or to another part of the body, then it is reasonable to describe such experiences in the way that they were felt/experienced. It is however just an experience or feeling and may not reflect ultimate reality, and that goes for all things we experience/feel really. Ultimately, according to the teachings of various widely respected masters, what we think of and experience as reality is not reality at all, but we only have to work with what we have learned, felt, and experienced, at any given moment in time. That's my view anyway. To denigrate others experience if it differs from one's own experience is perhaps a little short sighted. To loosely quote a famous fellow, the outer can take unlimited forms but it all derives from the same original source. Well, something like that anyway. Nice chatting with you YM. I'm off for my evening practice now. [A thought added later:] If we ever get so caught up with ourselves that we actually think we know something, i.e., if we forget that we are really just a rank beginner in the overall scheme of things, we have perhaps already lost our way. Best wishes...

In a perfect world there would be no need for talking at all and one would would just intuitively know who is teaching a true practice as opposed to those who are teaching false practices, and what one needs to do to progress. However, in the real world, such is not normally the case. I have no doubt that your teacher taught theory and background to you, and his/her teacher before him, and so on. I also have no doubt that you teach and 'explain' things when you are teaching, or even when you are discussing things here. You express your opinions and views as we all do. It is the main way that people communicate in this world and gain a better perspective on things. Yes, there are other forms of communication, and we have all likely experienced this. I do not question that. Anyway, sometimes what we say or what we think we do does not actually reflect what we actually do in reality. Try communicating with people without any talking and without trying to relate things you are trying to teach them to what they are already familiar with, and see how far you get. 'Reality' is often quite different from what we would like to think it is or should be, it seems to me. The ego is always ready and willing to lead us astray, no? This all does not really relate to this thread however, which was more of a discussion about the practices and traditions in Taoist internal alchemy. Best wishes from Iskote...