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I suppose the most mystifying issue for me is not the uncontrollable hostility and obscenity, or the delusional rationalizations for it all, but why we continue to tolerate it.

Wow. Seems to be some slightly divergent opinions about this particular technique, hmmm?

Muchas gracias.

Thanks. Maybe I should kill the thread since its been done so many times?

On my god, that's amazing, because I look EXACTLY like Him! Thanks for the KAP heads up. This stuff looks mighty useful and interesting. I'd love to hear about how it worked for you.

A few things come to mind that are all part of my own experience, so if I say something that touches a nerve, then we merely understand each other. Unexplainable lack of motivation is a state of mind I am familiar with, but if you look beneath it you may find some fear and uncertainty about your ability to navigate through life. If you are young, it means that enough negative conditioning has gone on in your short life to get your attention. Take the cue. It also means that you can rectify it fairly easily compared with someone whose been at it for decades. Although, I have to say, things were bad enough when I was 20 in 1980. I wouldn't want to be a 20 year old today. You guys are going to have to become quasi-priests in the years ahead, because the only alternative in a deteriorating social environment is to lose your life or your mind. The good news for all of us in here is that accessibility of mind/body disciplines has never been greater, although we would probably like to see more TCM-Toaist services available. At your age you should be seriously taking the advice to hit the weights. Three times a week, full-body, compound lifts. Focus on strength training, because you're going to get a lot stronger before you get any bigger anyway. The promises of a healthier mind with a better body are all true, but as I see it, from the spiritual side of things, strength training gives you a deeply felt sense of being physically grounded (especially if you're an ectomorph like me). It's not about creating an imposing and intimidating physique, but using the muscular strength to increase your mind-muscle connection, which in turn prepares your nervous system to be sensitive and relaxed enough to make good pregress with your energy work. Seriously, I think this forum is top heavy with intellectualizing and disconnected from the physical dimension, which is ostensibly what Taoism promises to alleviate when practiced correctly. As a trainer, I've met many people who didn't possess the muscle strength to feel their body. There are arguments from athletes and martial artists who recommend against weight training. As long as you lift with the same form and control that you would bring to a chi kung practice, you'll be okay. Also remember to keep your strength/flexibility ratio as balanced as you can. You could easily do an adequate stretching routine that didn't take time away from your chi work. It seems to me that initial work on The Little Orbit, as presented by Trunk at http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/ is probably the best written advice I've ever had in here. A clearer introduction to the MO I haven't found in several books on the subject. Someone farther along than I will have to mention if combining strength training and Microcosmic Orbit work is a good idea or not. I worked out during the first two years of my nei kung practice but I didn't start MO work until after I substituted yoga and chi kung for my workouts. It about proper timing and chronology. Having whined about the excessive verbosity, egocentrism, and intellectualizing that characterize this forum, and which I regularly indulge in myself, I would seriously pick up a copy of The Wise Heart, by Jack Kornfield. It probably covers more Buddhist pyschology than any other book on the subject, and it can really help you get a grip on the self-loathing and fear. So much of that can be eliminated much easier than people imagine. There you have it. Commit to Taoism, or go insane. Simple.

I confess that I never really new what KAP stood for. It's Kundalini data, right? What do you use? Teachers, dvds, websites?

The story was really well done from the standpoint of character development. The lead went from an obscenely clueless, fascist prick, into a hapless character for whom we could have affection, and then acquired the heroic archetype. Masterful redemption genre work. His tortuous experience in the firing range is pretty much the grabber, the emotional hook, for just about everyone I spoke to.

What are the sources/links for info on your KAP data?

Ditto. Huh? Scholar Warrior by Deng Ming-Dao is the absolute essential book for starting out. I own all his works except the latest. Ming-Dao offers westerners a deep insight into Taoist principles and practices. In my opinion, too many folks leap into ancient texts and suffer the plight of misinterpretation of abstract Chinese thought. People begin to whack each other over the head with quotes from the I Ching or the Tao te Ching, just as Bible thumpers try to assault others with Biblical references taken entirely out of context. If someone would have introduced me to the subject of the Microcosmic Orbit at the beginning, I would have avoided many false starts and dead ends. Scholar Warrior will do this for you and you can get a copy at Amazon for $3.

You received 382 hits and 25 thoughtful responses to the same question you posted on Monday. There's a lot of helpful advice there. If you act on it, you will progress. If you don't, the pattern of inaction starts to define your character, and then you really feel like shit. I speak from experience! Best of luck. "Engagement" Prey passes the tiger who Sometimes merely looks, Sometimes pounces without hesitation, But never fails to act. Life is a constant series of opportunities. If we dont' reach out for things, if we don't take advantage of what comes our way, then we cannot be in harmony with the essential nature of life. This tiger is the same way. He conforms to every situation that comes. If he spots prey and is not ready to hunt, he will let it go. But he has not failed to act. He has knowingly let the prey escape, and this is much different from someone who loses a situaltion through slow reflexes or inability. When the tiger wants his prey, he pounces upon it without any thought or hesitation. There are no morals, no guilt, no psychological problems, no ideologies to interfere with the purity of his action. This undiminished grace in action is called nonaction. This is engagement. Whatever comes to you, you must engage it somehow. You receive it, you may alter the circumstance and let it go, you may interject something of your own into it, or you may knowingly let it pass. Whatever you do, there is no need to be apathetic toward life. Instead, full participation in all things is the surest way to happiness, vitality, success, and a deep knowledge of Tao. Deng Ming-Dao - "365 Tao"

Gosh, if it's such a stupid quote, I'm really glad I'm not the author. Perhaps you're right. Maybe we should dispense with science, math... hell, let's just get rid of numbers altogether and focus instead on levitation and astral projection.

You don't shop at the same Whole Foods that I do, do you? Ventura Blvd?

I could be wrong, but what I've read about the promises of the Microcosmic Orbit, a fully achieved ascending and descending orbit controlled by the mind can can cure chronic physical ailments. I am just getting started, but the heat and energy I can now generate, thanks in part to advice I got in here, is getting awfully pronounced. I have no other goal at this time but to work toward a full MO. This should be the basic goal of anyone interested in using chi to forge their physical, mental, and spiritual selves. I think this get's lost in all the competing rhetoric, but it seems to be what all the teachings come back time and again. http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/

Shinto is the animist tradition of Japan. It may have melded with Zen Buddhism in Japan, but it wasn't part of the Buddhist/taoist fusion of China.

Just so we're clear - Buddhism + Taoism = Chan, or Zen (Japanese). Zen Buddhism came about by the melding of Buddhism and Taoism.

Thanks for your comments. There is one point you made that deserves some clarification. "Budhism is a mystical religion with a practical aim, period." Perhaps this is the sentiment of orthodox lineages, but Buddhism did not originate this way. The important point I was attempting to make is that it is NOT a mystical religion, but is in fact a rational, pragmatic, psychological and empirically substantiated philosophy of mind geared for awakening and the alleviation of suffering. I constantly go back to one of my favorite quotes; "metaphysics is for people who are too lazy to study physics." We are obliged to begin with our sensory awareness and rational faculties. But it would be tragic if people stopped there. Taoism offers a means of grounding your "self" on the earth, in physical reality, while allowing your powers of perception to evolve, and I would be the last one to argue that simply because this cannot be measured, it deserves no attention. My goal is to one day heal one of my die-hard critical thinking friends of their maladies with chi! Pranic healing, here I come!

My goals are to continue on a dual path of Kundalini rising and microcosmic orbit (I understand they are not exactly the same). I am currently at the point of "Dong Chu," or Movement Sensation in my abs. I've made a lot of progress in the last month; a lot of heat and the turbine-like revolution in my dan tien, but it hasn't broken into the next vessel yet. I am completely confident that I'll have some major movement by Christmas, but the initial goal is a solid, one inhale-one exhale M. Orbit. Then, according to the literature, the real fun begins, as you channel the chi up through the brainstem and ultimately, opening up the "Celestial Eye." (I'm quoting Daniel Reid's "The Complete Book of Chinese Health and Healing" - Shambhala Press and "QiGong for Health and Marial Arts" by Yang, Jwing-Ming). Honestly, if I could, I'd seek out a semi-monastic existence on the coast of British Columbia and commit to this full-time and get to the point where I can heal myself and others. But I'm still committed to this, even while trapped in Los Angeles! You know, the wall pose (viparita karani) seems like a great idea. I have an inversion table and I spend a total of ten minutes a day upside down. Maybe I'll acquire some of the same benefits.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm going to compliment you; your patronizing skills are almost as well-honed as my own. Well done. It is a simple rule of cognitive hygiene (which evidently doesn't matter as much in here as in, say, a physics blog), that we do not presume to know more than we do. In critical thinking circles, this is known as intellectual humility. All I am doing by pointing out my level of education is delineating my limits of knowledge, not my wisdom, and I'm sure you would agree with me that there is a difference. I also believe you would agree with me that a certain amount of formal study is necessary just to acquire competency enough to discuss it with others, much less profess the content. I acknowedge that Tibetan Buddhism is not a subject that avails itself to empirical study. We all get that. There are some things that the scientific method cannot connect with. We all get that. The point is to know the difference between what it is possible to know for certain and what is not, and to abstain from confusing the two in order to sound professorial. A simple question in a lower division philosophy class would ask you, How can you know if you're deluding yourself? Your answers above are textbook examples this inability, and by doing so, you create artificial disagreements between like-minded souls. I count many agnostic humanists in my circle of friends who have no genuine animosity to Tibetan or Mahayana or Theraveda or any of the other lineages, but honest inquiry begins with feet on the ground. Personal experience will most likely remain qualitatively superior when it comes to matters of the soul, but not if your ideas about the soul are patently untrue, demonstrably false, or on a collision course with factual information. Some folks believe that all homosexuals should be taken out back and stoned to death, and they will cite chapter and verse in the defense of beliefs. I am not comparing your sentiment to such obscenity, but the nature of your internal logic is the same; you have no independent references to base your ideas upon. You just cite esoteric notions and expect the rest of the world to accept your reasoning, and then assert that their hopeless devotion to empiricism prevents them from attaining the lofty heights that you claim to inhabit. "The teachings attributed to the original Buddha are filled with so called, "magical beings" and "magical occurrences". These are explained through the science of Jhana. The spiritual experience of the Buddhas words are what leads to Mahayana and Vajrayana. Mine are verifyable in Buddhist teachings and the teachings or autobriographies of various Buddhist masters." These are the metaphysics that accrete onto the body of original ideas, usually religious ideas, usually centuries after the originator has already passed away. Buddhism originated in the Iron Age. Does that mean it is sensible to adopt an Iron Age mythology in order to have meaning and enlightenment? Christianity started 500 years later. Does this mean that Christians are obliged to practice their faith within a mythological paradigm of demons, slavery, superstition and religious persecution? You might also want to consider the practical advantage of being a rational humanist who is utterly free to cultivate a spiritual life or not, rather than a metaphysician who does not possess enough scientific literacy to know when he's deluding himself. "I've always had a vision beyond the senses." Who hasn't? Do you think this makes you unique? Did you ever get a chance to read "Quantum Questions: Mystical Writings of the World's Great Physicists" All these scientists believed in something beyond their senses and their rational faculties, but none of them believed that their professional work supported those beliefs. They acknowledged the legitimacy of both worlds without disparaging either. Simply doing away with one or the other is not what it's about. Going to college ain't poisonous. Plenty of lunatics and morons get college degrees every year. The important element is the experience of having to test the veracity of their views with their classmates. You are clearly an intelligent individual. If you can possibly avoid it, don't make the same mistake I made by postponing college too long. I started fifteen years ago when I was 35. You owe it to yourself and the people around you to be able to share your wisdom without confusing the living shit out of them. The degree your mother got doesn't count. But I'm sure she raised you well. Best of luck.

I am of the opinion that reading ancient texts is a risky business if one does not yet possess the psychological maturity to minimize the pitfalls of projection, misinterpretation, errors of context, blah, blah, blah. Almost every person in the West has witnessed someone beating the shit out of someone else with the Bible; it is a notoriously difficult book to read for novices who have no experience with literary criticism. I'm going to have to suggest that the same perils exist with westerners and their treatment of ancient Asian texts. In fact, if TTB offered any hints, I'd say it rivals Bible abuse of the largest order.

If I didn't know any better, I would say that my boob comment just got me compared with a jackass, but I am used to that Seriously, I get a yellow glowing orb that slowly pulsates in and out of my visual field. When I was very young I used to imagine it to be God himself. It would of course be unbearably hip if someone told me it was some kind of Third eye phenomena.

My deepest sympathies for your plight. I can offer no real relief other than mentioning that Ken Wilber, one of the living geniuses of consciousness studies today, has suffered with the same thing since the 1980s and has written a great deal about it. He almost died awhile back and the whole ordeal, including grand mal seizures, was a huge topic in that circle of interest. http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/214 Perhaps there is something in this direction that helps in some small way. Best wishes.