contrivedname!

you are correct, and this post has possibilities in it "Unmindfull of the stench of alchohol on the beggar's breath, the beggar spends the money on more booze."... what if the giver is mindfull and realizes that their (the beggars) dao doesnt involve the accumulation of riches? both possibilities are possible for differing mentalities. , this post starts from the supposition that reality needs correction. this maybe true, there maybe ideas which you rail against, this is humanity.

i think nietzsche said it well "Once the mind has been made up close your ear to even the most powerful counter argument. Sign of a strong character. Thus an occasional will to stupidity." (from memory of Walter Kaufman's translation of Beyond good and Evil) the ten thousand things are what they are so why all this embrace one discard the other? after all doesnt the sage say "Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men, And therefore nobody is abandoned; Always good at saving things, And therefore nothing is wasted." (john c.h. wu trans) "A truly good man is not aware of his goodness, And is therefore good. A foolish man tries to be good, And is therefore not good. A truly good man does nothing, Yet leaves nothing undone. A foolish man is always doing, Yet much remains to be done. When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone. When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done. When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds, He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order. Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there ritual. Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao. It is the beginning of folly. Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface, On the fruit and not the flower. Therefore accept the one and reject the other. " "What is a good man? A teacher of a bad man. What is a bad man? A good man's charge. If the teacher is not respected, And the student not cared for, Confusion will arise, however clever one is. This is the crux of mystery. " (Gia-fu feng and english translation) please understand that this post is a paradox , though in my prespective if you are reading a forum you should read and unemotionally consider every post (not as easy to do as say, like just about everything else ). i also see deleting posts as stupid, if not all that bad of a thing, how are you supposed to learn off the feedback if you alter it to make yourself look better? in some other post mal said it the best (regarding the ignore function) when he said something like i use it when someones opinion is really annoying me i use this function until i can get my self centered... good advice, the proper use of a tool; though i think you should just deal with the annoyance anyway, or sit on it if you like that prespective

i should have explained what i meant better. i read probably 10% of the threads here; i read what seems interesting and pertinent to my development (sometimes others). i meant that if you go into a topic you are interested in you should listen to all of the opinions there, not just the ones you like, and then respond reasonably, critically, and spontaneously (as possible ) chris

...(damn stigweard where do you get that guy rolling on the ground?)

excellent job of racial punning

hi gossamer

one thing that usually helps ground me is being in nature (though even then sometimes its a chaotic whirl) when winter sets in i tend to retreat into my artifical cave i like what you say about spaces in btwn words i typically do my editing while posting initially and if i reread what i just typed sometimes i find more to add and sometimes i find what i was saying was nothing

lolwut? here allow me to quote you not that you didnt really respond to him in kind, just funny to me that you would say you didnt judge him i agree with your interpretation of "fix yourself before you fix others", however i think that is just one possible way of viewing that bit o wisdom and that wisdom is multifaceted like a diamond. cool that you didnt feel like i was attacking you, i just sorta felt like i had to throw a disclaimer on it cause we've never communicated before, and some folks (like me) like to jump to conclusions "Anyway, I've found it better to let my real brother take the fall. I'll chew his ass when he's down so he knows not to fall for the same thing twice. Messing up is a learning experience. It's better to fall and know why you fell, even though getting back up might be even more painful. That way you learn something. You can disagree if you want, but tell me how many times I've done that exact thing only to have my brother come back months later and say,"Bruh, you were right man, I don't know how I was so stupid!" right on, is that sort of like what gold is doing with vajra? not saying vajra is down necessarily but then it seems you contradict this with: "I thought we all learned that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" but perhaps you are of the opinion (like me) that some times what is "nice" doesnt always come in a pretty package i will go out on a limb and say what lost monk said to me was "nice" (nice cause he called me on some "hidden" dishonesty, and props to hagar for his insightful post in "heavy drinking and smoking") but i disagree with "That would apply to trying to offer criticism to a person you have never met, never studied with, and don't know anything about at all." i really am not a fan of the "what would jesus do mentality" but since i brought the quotes up it seems pertinent did jesus intimately know the money changers? perhaps so perhaps not. did he say 'nice' things to them? perhaps depending on if you think nice is something that always comes in a pretty package or not. people are stubborn and i am one as well oh and one last thing the idea of "fixing someone" is based on a value judgement that you believe they need to be "fixed" i enjoyed our little conversation, brother, i hope you change your mind about being done with this thread oh and one more thing, i believe, if someone is posting honestly, then you can get a good feel of what they are like and what they are about, even if it is an incomplete picture (though does anyone ever have a 'complete' picture of someone else?)

can i join all three of your secret clubs? i'd love to dance, eat easter eggs, get three nothings, and be involved w/ sock puppets

fairly simply darin, i saw mal reference it in the gossamer post (if you read my whole post, which you may have, you would notice i quote mal from memory), and if you read my hello to everyone i stated that i have in fact been reading this forum since nov. damn cat, your gonna have to show me how to be so clever as to intuit what a thread says w/out reading it desert eagle .50 (a Snatch reference)- i could be wrong (for some, for others i could be right), being wrong aint such a bad thing tho, i believe it is how we learn by honestly stating how we feel about things and then letting the chips fall where they will i have been in a forum like that too, now if there was a forum w/ out "edit" that would sure be something dont know what tl;dr means, but that is the same for me, when i dont read posts its from sheer laziness, though if i jump into a thread i hmm 95% of the time make sure to read them all. props to you for the honesty there (of course you could be lying, but i dont think so)

for me too to each their own, but how do you know that they are those things if you dont read them? chris

you probably know more about the bible than i, but i feel this is worth the regurgitation "judge not the ye be not judged for with what judgement ye judge you shall be judged" and following that line of thought: you are being far too judgemental of gih (if that is who you are implying is "hating" on santi) gih has stated that he treats santi as he would his brother ie he doesnt hold shit back from a pretense of propriety. so if you have a brother doing things that annoy you would you just sit back from a sense of propriety and not pipe up? i am not trying to attack you or hate you with this but i believe this quote also bears repeating: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." good reminders from jesus christo

i remember that post and i thought it was an excellent use of zhuangzi's story about "you see a crossbow pellet and expect a roast dove" or some such thing to that effect

i think people do darin, and i think it is kind of deceitful in a way, which is why i got so defensive so quick. i can totally see how folks would think that though, in retrospect. and hey i guess i could take it as a compliment, seeing as i like gih's posts, though i'd prefer to only take credit for what i write not someone else thanks for your answer santiago i agree when you say "both with in and with out". i would still enjoy discussing the nyingma tradition too, but i guess that could be a separate thread, i really like chogyam trungpa's works, but have only read them since he died when i was very young

i must say, your comments ring true. to each his/her own indeed. and it is helpful that you use your personal experience to paint the picture. chris

the parable i have in mind is this: "A man with a passion for horses catches the shit in a basket and the piss in a jar. If a mosquito or a fly lands on the horse and he brushes it off too abruptly, then the horse will break its bit, hurt the man's head, and crack his ribs. Such a man has good intentions, but he overdoes it. Can you afford to be careless?" (gia-fu feng & english trans) or "The horse lover will use a fine box to catch the dung and a giant clam shell to catch the stale. But if a mosquito or a fly lights on the horse and he slaps it at the wrong time, then the horse will break the bit, hurt its head, and bang its chest. The horse lover tries to think of everything, but his affection leads him into error. Can you afford to be careless?" (burton watson translation) like much of chuang tzu this parable is very applicable to everyday life and can be taken in many different directions. here is my understanding(s) of this parable: this is an excellent example of the teacher/student relationship. when somebody is too passionate about humanity and they try to even catch the shit and piss of humanity in a nice little container though these things should be allowed to flow and fertilize the ground for the future. when the fly lands on the horse, who is to say that the fly isnt doing the horse a favor, perhaps she is helping the horse clean itself up by eating the traces of shit left behind (that wasnt caught in the basket ) or if a mosquito perhaps the horse is selflessly allowing it to continue to live by providing its form of sustinance... just because the fly (mosquito) annoys the horse trainer does that mean it annoys the horse? by forcing the horse to go against its nature (by brushing the fly off and making it shit and piss in containers) it then lashes out at the trainer (or hurts it self variably) and may not even know why. this is the danger of good intentions gone awry and unchecked. by letting a horse shit and piss freely and to allowing whatever alights on it mind (in this case the fly) to be as it is you allow the horse the opportunity to discover its true dao. lead by example; hence the saying "he who speaks doesnt know he who knows doesnt speak" and "first come those [teachers, leaders, etc.] of which the people are barley aware" and "when the work is done the people exclaim "we have done it ourselves!"" from the horses prespective it may love and cherish its trainer, but if the trainer is too overbearing and attempts to force the horse to follow his way instead of its own way the horse may break the bit (the teaching) and drift even further from what is in its own heart-mind, such as violently lashing out (or non violently), instead of learning what the bit is for (by shitting and pissing) hence the saying "dont wish that things happen as you want them to happen, but wish that they happen as they do happen and you shall go on well" thats one take on it any other takers? chris

great parable stigweard, i too may use it in the future gih - you are correct, i should have omitted the "bit", i was prettying it up too much zanshin - another great take on that parable xuesheng - wu wei... right arm , you summed what i was saying in fewer words

you, lost monk, are of course correct, i misstated. I should have stated, while i intuit computers and the jargon very well, i have not been taught very much so my actual applicable knowledge is very limited. thanks for pointing out my "unwanted food crumb and extraneous growth".

agree with you both has anyone heard the theory about psychadellics being a catalyst for human consciousness? maybe i will start a thread about that

great job hawk over water, you made me realize that i was taking this far too seriously and should remember about the things we (ie nw, zhongyong, and others) were writing about in the Stoicism thread and that i was (of course) jumping to the same types of conclusions i was "worried" about

great points about how the horses may or may not behave gold. agree about mistakes which is exactly what i was implying with all the piss and shit comments though your last comment does stike me as a bit cliche, i find it to be true nonetheless

sigh... believe what you will, though ill admit i am sort of annoyed at the presumption of a couple of folks here. oh and for the jargon it is because i have seen people talk about it in forums... simply because i took the side of the person who was getting railed against (and actually i didnt really take a side because i basically implied that both had wisdom in their words), and type in a somewhat similar fashion (or can, im a pretty good writer when i try). for me honesty is my #1 virtue, if i make a scale out of it, and it just sort of hurts my feelings (yes i shouldnt care so much) when a couple people basically call me a liar for honestly posting my feelings in an already agressive and combative forum post... lost monk you stated that gold would drive people away with his postings, well it wont happen here, but please consider the medium of communication and what you are doing much chris