KoolAid900

Beautiful! Well said. I love it... I love the point that you bring up and it seems to really hit the nail on the head in some way about about the stylistic approach of Tao and BuddhaDharma. It seems reasonable to me to use it for that purpose. Both approaches seems wonderful and actually necessary to me, at least for enlightenment, haha. I have been training in the Buddhist perspective and my training has been effective apparently, because I have a hard getting out of it, hehe. I think there really is no ultimate right answer... One who is in the position of dispensing the teaching would have to make the call based on look at the circumstances I suppose. On the one hand, why deny someone potential benefit... esp. if that benefit is likely further one's progress on the path to enlightenment (if we look form a Buddhist perspective) regardless of intention? This is something I have noticed individual Lamas becoming more lax about in the west. On the other hand, if the Lama can see that denying you the technique will actually bring you (or beings in general) greater happiness, then this makes sense too. Most situations probably fall in a gray area in between, I'd guess. Then would be up to the intuition/insight of the teacher. From the Taoist sage perspective, Tao is Tao, what does it matter if you know you are Tao or not? You are still Tao. If you think something will make you happy (and of good character), I'll give it to you and you can determine for yourself. (let me know if I'm wrong here). It seems that in the accomplished masters of both traditions there is a mixture of the two approaches. I know of accomplished Lamas who have disappeared doing random things, like construction work, for many years at a time, seemingly out of equanimity. Also, Tao masters certainly push their students to be greater than the students behave.

I think it depends on how serious the student is. If one's motivation is for enlightenment and service to others then it can absolutely be learned, but it will be in the context of moving from where ever you are to enlightenment. Like the in the Karate Kid you may have to do a lot of car-waxing to get complete transmission, but if you've done it well you'll realize that you were developing everything you needed/wanted the whole time. When you get the practice it will transform your life, rather than just be a technique with some benefit. I personally began to explore Taoism because of the availability of some of the techniques and realized that I am better off finishing what I started in Tibetan Buddhism.

Contagious wisdom (referencing quote on previous post) I understand that this is a Taoist forum, so it is natural that members will have a Taoist take (which I love btw). But to really understand a practice like tummo I think one has to understand the context within which it occurs. Just as the author above described the Tibetan culture as contagious, this is how enlightenment in Tibet is. The practices of energy work (based on my limited introduction to them) in Tibet are supplemental to the main practice. They are powerfully useful in helping one "catch" the wisdom of Mahamudra/Dzogchen, deepen it, and make it complete. They exist within the context of transmission... where the main practice is really devotion/magical intention. This is such a misunderstood concept that I doubt I can be clear. Self-empowering Devotion Many in the west tend to think that devotion is giving up power. But it is not, we still have the power. Anytime we give up power, we are actually the ones in control of where our power goes. We haven't really given anything up, we just pretended to! It is like that with devotion, it is magical intention, and a powerful emotion/channel thing. A deeply applied, genuine, devotion towards anything creates a powerful focus, and magical intention. This is what is so scary about devotion and what can be addicting for an inappropriate recipient. For a realized person it is nothing however, why would they want your Buddha-nature when they have their own? And with such deep focus, engaging all level of one's being, dropping the wall of ego, it becomes very easy for someone to just hold up a mirror and show the student the real source... BuddhaNature. Energy work and Magical Intention The ritual, presentation, and understanding of tummo occurs for its own sake and merit, but also with this particular goal in mind. The esoteric presentation, and making the student work to obtain what may seem like a basic simple energy practice are actually part of the practice. The apparent energy practice is only one technique at work... It is only when the student's entire being is gathered and focused into one channel and intent that he/she will recognize her own BuddhaNature/magical intention completely, with little remainder (along with some other prerequisite conditions). The energy practices, while being real and effective, are only real and effective in so far as the magical, inherent, spontaneous Buddha-quality makes them so. This is why energy practices look different in BuddhaDharma. This is also why faith/devotion is such an important component in the Vajrayana and what makes it so direct. Faith is nothing other than working with the source. Hope that made some sense... Also, I am not trying to one up the Tao with BuddhaDharma... I would love to hear about how the Tao approach works with these things.

From the article on Michael Winn's wesbite: In his thesis, he states that old Tibet was a society that was 'damaging to the human spirit.' Any person who has spent any time with the Tibetan people would laugh at the irony. Being with Tibetans of all walks of life, inside and outside of Tibet, one is always struck by the incredible, contagious spirit of Tibetan culture. I think this gets to the heart of it. Both the culture and any of the Tibetan Buddhist practices. If you've actually spent time with Tibetans you can feel this. Even the aristocratic Tibetans have some sort of quality, very similar to Native Americans in some way. Tibet society was quite far from perfect. They did(do?) have some amazing attributes and practices though (cultural and spiritual). I consider myself to have been very positively effected by Tibet, but am not interested in becoming Tibetan.

I think this concern must just come from looking from outside or something...? I dunno, but it's not like that. I have never met a decent Buddhist who blames others. This is not at all the Buddhist teaching. The purpose of karma is of instruction as opposed to explanation. We are learning how to grow, avoid unnecessary suffering, and increase positivity. In Mahayana the emphasis is on being of benefit to all, we do not judge others. As far as compassion is concerned it does not care whether or not somebody is repeatedly stabbing themselves in the eye or if a super-villan does it. The fact that it is their own fault should only increase compassion and concern... "how unbelievably sad it is to see everyone create their own suffering, I must help if I can!" The teaching on karma has nothing to do with punishment. I'm starting to realize that karma is a vastly misunderstood topic. What is really going is that the mind is King. Mind effects the way that we experience things and some of what we experience (to a greater extent than we usually attribute to it). Karma is stored in the mind (and/or Chi energy), but how it manifests is greatly effected by conditions and the environment, it is not a set static thing. The point is not that wrongdoers are punished but that the seeds we plant in our mind will one day give rise to what is in the field we are plowing. http://www.unfetteredmind.com/articles/explain.php Ken McLeod says it much more clearly in a few short articles... If I understand what you are saying about switching from holograph to retribution correctly, then you've hit one what I see as one of BuddhaDharma's strongest points, from a slightly negative angle. From the positive perspective the teaching is saying that everything is illusory AND everything you do matters. In my experience it is rare to find those 2 combined. Usually if everything is illusory then people feel they have a free pass, or if everything is so solid then they become extremists, closed to any other perspective. Karma is an important principle in terms of personal growth, it is all about looking within. If we are victim blaming this is not right, and certainly only accumulation of negative karma for ourselves.

Very interesting b/c I often have issues with my perineum after prostrations... i wonder if there is a relationship there.

Yeah, he really is a walking heart. When I began to connect with the Drikung Kagyu lineage, there were 2 teachers that I felt I really needed to connect with and Garchen was one (the other was Khenchen Konchok Gyaltshen Rinpoche). Even seeing him only once before he passes, I feel very happy. I have that much confidence in him and the meaning of connecting. Anyway, looks like he will be in the area again. According to Kunzang Palchen Ling's facebook: Kunzang Palchen Ling We are very happy to share the news with you that H.E. Garchen Rinpoche will visit KPL in 2011, this time for a weekend teaching! The date has been set for late May, but we would like to wait a little longer with announcing it since the details are still subject to change at this stage of planning. This will be in Red Hood NY (not brooklyn), if you are still in the area perhaps you can meet him. Also, this is a wonderful opportunity to make a connection with the extremely short lineage of Terchen Barway Dorje, and the Bardor Tulku Rinpoche, personal Dharma protector of HH Karmapa... KPL is his main center of activity. Despite being very low-key, Bardor Rinpoche is a maha-siddha, and his qualities are not very hidden as I think he forgets to hide them. It seems pretty clear to me that even though he is one of the most completely aware human beings I've met, everything he is doing in that form, everything most of us can see, is nothing but a side project of his awareness... which is clearly working in many realms simultaneously. He is also married with 3 daughters. Hope you get a chance to go KPL's website: http://www.kunzang.org Bonus: http://www.kunzang.org/dohas/btr-dohas-dpr.html Amazing Letter from BTR to Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche in relation to samaya, political issues, and HH Karmapa.

I've heard that prostrations slowly raises kundalini energy... and also opens the sacrum... They definitely do crazy things to my body and work muscles extensively that don't otherwise get worked. This seems to have spiritual significance but i'm not sure what it is. Any comments on any of that?

Could be b/c sometimes it is called dependent origination and sometimes interdependent origination. I got confused about that at first.

That went a different way than I expected, nice!

http://www.forthebenefitofallbeings.com/preview.html <3 <3 <3 <3 I have experienced a lot of love in my life... especially as a child. Enough that since I was a teenager I have striven to help others feel such love. It has been an aspiration of mine since then to go where there is unhappiness so that I can give some love. It is what I do for a living (social services) and I have dedicated my adult marriage to it. The immense love from my family that inspired this, did not compare with the depth of Love I felt from Garchen Rinpoche in 20 seconds... when I gave him a steak knife and he saw me. I bawled for hours. I don't have the eloquence to express these emotions in words. He is what Jesus is supposed to be. completely. there is nothing greater than this. Thank you Garchen :')

It seems that conceptual understanding sharpens the clarity of the mind, which is very good. It seems that awareness itself is non-conceptual. Clarity, which can be cultivated through conceptual understanding, leads one to the recognition of awareness. Awareness is non-conceptual. I think sometimes it is easy to confuse the conceptual understanding that increases clarity, thereby decreasing confusion & revealing awareness, as the actual awareness itself. Don't forget that the non-conceptual is empty as well.

Love it!

OK, point taken, but. my teachers refer to enlightenment as the union of luminosity and emptiness. we could perhaps differentiate that from direct pointing out of Mahamudra/Dzokchen. Otherwise though, sounds an awful lot like oneness to me.

LOL, I can understand that seeming very negative. However, you have to understand the context/intent. It is not to demean women, but to develop renunciation... possibly intended especially for monks. No matter what spiritual path we are taking the methods include reducing engagement with negativity and increase engagement with positivity. Unless it is mystical method of no-method, that is. Understood within that context, the purpose of this teaching is to eliminate the negative aspect of sexual attraction. Potentially extremely important for someone to maintain lifelong celibacy. If not a monk, then I think it would have to be balanced with cultivation of the love & spiritual part of the sexual experience.

Wonderful post btw... I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Its nice to see introspection and knowledge conjoining in honesty, it is a rare experience for me, esp. on message board! Can't we say that the reference the Buddha is making here is to an inner guidepost so that we avoid a particular pitfall? Language is in essence metaphorical, so someone of a non-Buddhist tradition maybe using the word "oneness(or whatever it is)" as metaphor pointing to the truth... not necessarily capturing it literally. It seems it would all depend on the inner state of the individual and what the symbol, word or concept, represents that would determine if the truth is the same or different. Kundalini as independent must be an illusion. However, I disagree that it would not be intelligent. I see no difference between Kundalini and awareness. The words the Buddha used certainly are different and it seems that Buddha offered clarity in avoiding certain pitfalls which may have been prevalent at that time. It is fundamentally different in terms of the paradigm used. However, the result can only be judged by the result, not the paradigm. What about if we merge with a formless level of being without being attached to it? It seems that it would be the same thing then as far as I can tell. Love the way the post was put together...!

Damn I can't figure this multi-quote thing out. I don't have a whole lot of exp with Namkhai Norbu. But have had the fortune of making real Vajrayana connections... One of the things about the way that the Vajrayana works based on my experience is that it is taught from the ground up. This makes it much more difficult than Taoist yoga that I've had experience with in the beginning because you begin with what seem like very mundane things. Seemingly the opposite of what you are looking for. The benefit to this type of approach is that you are cultivating the attributes that will ensure the successful completion of transformation. And you are learning non-partiality that will make all the attainments lasting. It reminds me of the Karate Kid when Master Miagi makes Ralph wax his car over & over & over. Ralph is like "what does this have to do with Karate?" When he does learn a powerful technique it is almost effortless for him. It turns out that he learned the inner discipline of endurance and is not swayed by all the comings & goings and can stay true to his purpose. That weird kick thing is super powerful because the power comes from the stillness within, instead of force like all of the guys he is up against. So, my experience of Vajrayana is like that. For years I felt like I would be prostrating until the end of the Earth and couldn't figure out what the hell it could possibly be for. It was definitely not how I had envisioned my life or spirituality. And the contemplations I was instructed to do seemed utterly hopeless, I just got more anxious, more depressed, and I was kinda angry b/c of it! I was less inspired or beneficial to others than I'd ever felt. After getting some perspective though I realized that it had done me a lot more good than I realized. Being face to face with my weak spots was very uncomfortable, but truly worthwhile. Those hidden/unconscious flaws would surely have continued to influence me in everything I did, spiritual or otherwise. And those hopeless contemplations are actually what inspired spiritual interest to begin with... but I didn't recognize them when they were spelled out... pointed out all the ways I was not living in harmony with my path. I started to notice that others I admired, who I consider to be very spiritual people, were being knocked around by the events of their life. Like a really unstable compass, they had the right directions and purpose but any little bump would send it spinning. Since life does not wait for their compass to re-align, they have to keep moving and end up taking detours. Some of these detours are rocky and throw the compass even further out of whack. So those contemplations are like steroids for the inner compass, make it point really strong, and stubbornly refuse to wobble. (What is funny about this is that as I write it I realize that I am actually talking about myself, projecting different stages of my growth into a story with different characters) So Vajrayana is really good if you want the whole deal. If you want the fruit then Vajrayana will give it to you, mercilessly at times. However, if you are more interested in learning some yogic techniques for their own sake or some other end, then Vajrayana is probably not the best way to do go. Seems like the Tao tradition likely employed a similar technique at one point. I'm not sure if it still going on or not though. Wow, I feel like I really got rambling there, I don't know if anybody wanted to here that... i'm posting it anyway, cause I spend so much time on it!

Makes sense to me. It is one of the things that appealed to me about Taoist Yoga over Buddhist, but I am starting to see that each has its own advantage. I can't speak to the other Indian spiritual traditions, but in Buddhist yoga there is a great benefit gained from using the power of confidence/faith and transmission. Belief can dissolve all kinds of delusions without ever having to touch them, which of course unifies the winds/chi/whatever. Also, it has given rise to something totally unique as far as I am aware: a public system in which masters continually manifest across lifetimes. In a sense this is not any better than the Yogi of any tradition who teaches genuine spirituality... but it is really amazing when you think about the fact that they are publicly recognized. You can actually go find Karmapa, for example, who has been teaching for 900 years now and join in. Wow that is really insane... I'm kinda floored by that, and I'm the one who said it. LoL That's the Buddhist approach I guess. I also really strongly connect with what I know of the Tao transmission, which feels more brotherly... this method is so tuned with the Tao view and is really amazing as well. I just don't know sometimes... there are some really amazing things available. So easy to miss too.

Great book! I really love that book...! What an amazing man, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, and all four of his sons! Chokgyur Lingpa had a disciple who was also a Terchen... Barway Dorje with a whole cycle of very recent treasures that are beginning to be made public in the US, spread by the reincarnation of Barway Dorje. Someone very close to me is studying with him. Lovely stuff

Responding to the original post... so beautiful. Thanks for sharing

I have found I Ching, The book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth (Hua-Ching Ni) http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=I+ching+hua+ching-ni&x=0&y=0 to be especially profound and inspiring. It's about $23 right now on amazon... I paid the full $35 despite being very poor because I wanted to make sure that I got a copy true to the profundity of the spiritual path and content of the I Ching. As a wonderful supplement there are 200 pages before the root text that build from the base up the process of energy movement, combination, and description that builds all of life. It is very complex, but wonderful. I am working very hard on my Vajrayana BuddhaDharma commitments at this point, but have found what I learned here so essential in every aspect of life... My Dharma practice is so much more effective with even a small understanding of the patterns of energy flow. About its benefit: The I-Ching is universally applicable when you understand that the divination process is a practice training the mind in the wisdom of energy movement/interdependence/cause & effect. As we do divination we get bigger perspective on a situation, where it came from, where it is going, and the various components (represented by the various lines and trigrams within the hexagram) that make it up. As we gain insight into the interdependence of all these factors, wisdom to manage our life well begin to arise spontaneously. The complexity of all the factors in the I Ching actually lead to simplicity in the individual. I would consider the knowledge contained within Hua Ching Ni's 200 page preface to be essential to any dedicated practitioner of the Tao (not that it is only place to get it, but it is direct, succinct, and easily available there if you can work with technical presentations). After the basic energy combinations/movements are presented he moves through the way the way they move through nature, the spiritual significance of the sky, energy movement applied to human life, the spiritual truth in the otherworld, and guidance on living daily with in accordance with the natural truth. These sections are all very in depth, not just an introduction. After all this he explains how the I Ching is built, how the energy moves b/w lines, building trigrams, and eventually hexagrams. How to actually access the knowledge of the Tao through divination and harmonize with it... The point being that the structure is given so that one can read the I-Ching based on inner wisdom. There are also traditional commentaries, commentaries by Mr. Ni, and poetic interpretations that help one to understand the vast complexities of how energy moves. This way you have the tools to access your own wisdom.... as well as access to the influence of those already highly developed. Sorry it was so long... Enjoy! Wonderful Book couldn't help myself

I can think of a couple of good reasons why access to tools have been restricted. One is because the harder one has to work for something the more it is appreciated. It is like spending thousands of dollars for something, you are really going to think about before you do it, make sure you want it, and them probably take very good care of it after buying. If one values spiritual tools in this way then the persons that made you work hard or whatever to get access to them is doing you a kindness because when you actually have them they will be valued enough to receive their real benefit. Also, one hopefully develops certain qualities while working to attain access to the secrets that are necessary prerequisites to successful application of the secrets. Another good reason is that if one does not have the proper discipline/respect/orientation then one could use the secrets to a negative end, like black magic. Lastly, secrets widely know lose their power. If everybody was walking around doing the Microcosmic orbit in a genuine way it would be great, but most likely if it was very popular it would also become watered down. There are sometimes when access is restricted for bad reasons, probably mostly to retain some sort of power or wealth I guess.

I love synchronicity too, beautiful! It seems that the difference has to do with language. With the Tao the starting and ending point seems to reside in Chi energy, BuddhaDharma it is the mind/inner world. Both are only systems of thought created as a way to understand experience and use it meaningfully. What Vajrayana Buddhism calls subtle levels of conceptual thought are the same as the movement of Chi energy, talked about from a different perspective. It is not as though in Buddhism there is no Chi energy and in Taoism there is no mind, they are just talked about differently and with varying emphasis. I have heard Vajrayana Buddhist masters validate practices such as Microcosmic orbit and say that on a subtle level karma is stored inside Chi energy (called winds usually). It seems that BuddhaDharma uses more mind/heart training than certain Taoist approaches in the beginning and does intensive work with the central channel later on. Alchemical Tao methods seems to do more Chi energy purification in the beginning. In actuality the Body, Chi and Mind cannot really be separated, but learning to define all things from one perspective provides a stable, consistent basis on which to build. This allows all experiences to be integrated into a meaningful whole.