Owledge

Yes, and at some point one isn't fooled that easily anymore. But that's can be a curse, when the real thing still isn't available. And the growing pain stemming from that can be more of a hindrance than a helper.

I don't desire a satisfying explanation of the Tao nor an understanding of the TTC. I read it and it mostly made sense. I disagree with some points or have my doubts, but I get the basic principle Lao Tzu wanted to highlight. Thriving for grapsing some kind of exact message or truth in the TTC sounds like spiritual materialism, or maybe just the very common deviation from the spiritual way when the fear-based mind tries to hijack the process. Are you also analyzing koans in order to find their true message so that you can make a checkmark and sleep peacefully, believing you have just gained wisdom? There's nothing to be gained from reading the TTC. But there's stuff to let go of. The best stuff in there is probably that which changes you without you noticing. Reminds me of something Max Christensen said during a seminar when unsuccessfully trying to release a blockage: "You're too much in your head. ... Most people on The Tao Bums are."

Can you please give me some quotes where he supposedly tries to describe Tao? I think you are the one mistaking his teachings with attempts at describing it. Quite clear though should be that he doesn't try to describe several meanings of Tao, but it's the same principle all the time. He has to intellectually circle around that which the intellect cannot grasp. He tries to give advice on how to live in order to follow the Tao. That is not an attempted description of what the Tao is. It is more like the situation where the student asks the master: "What does this exercise do?" and the master replies: "Stop asking questions and just do the exercise." Another metaphor: If you want to draw a picture of a black hole, then you cannot possible draw the black hole. All you can do is draw stars and not draw them where the black hole is supposed to be. Lao Tzu is not trying to explain what a black hole looks like. He's telling you about a certain pattern of stars. The mind easily misguides itself when it reads instructions, but their point is to still the mind, not to stimulate it. The path towards the Tao is synthetic, not analytical. The mind's fear-based behavior separates us from the Tao. (unsatisfying explanation, but I have no better one)

Don't take what I say to cereals.

Well, you became commander-in-chief, so it's kind of a hypocritical thing to say.

Nine forum pages trying to understand what the Tao is compared to 81 tiny chapters trying to teach the Tao. I'm amazed how profoundly people can misunderstand the nature of the Tao Te Ching. It's not an acedemic text. It's a workbook.

Women are bad at properly parking threads. Also, the forum's color scheme is not attractive enough to draw their attention and awaken interest. Quite a female style in the forums though, with all the gossiping about the Tao. @Hot Nirvana Judo Trend I am a good liar. Probably because I honor truth so much. Or maybe I just like acting. Maybe I talk too much. Maybe not. No, I think I do. I'm sure you agree. At least sometimes. Like now for example. Someone please stop me! ... Never mind, I stopped. Darn, paradoxon alert! This is life, people!

I suspect that the limiations you suggest to overcome are in place to keep us from going crazy. Because if you follow that line of reasoning, you end up with the realizsation that absolutely anything is possible any time anywhere as often as you like, then soon time and space collapses and you're begging for some comfy illusions. Man, I'm so glad there's a profound difference between understanding/believing something and experiencing it.

ChiDragon, how can you read the Tao Te Ching and still ask the question "What is Tao?"? Don't you realize the absurdity? Didn't even Lao Tzu say that he just used that name to give it a name and that it's of no relevance? This thread is nine pages long now, looks like intellectual jerking off. But it's all fine. It's what the mind does when confronted with stuff like this. It goes on and on and on, driving itself crazy. Stop the obsession trying to understand what Tao is, then it's easier to follow it. Could be that during one of my ayahuasca trips, the universe tried to show me what the Tao is, and because I tried to understand, it scared the living shit out of me. You could as well try to intellectually grasp the concept of infinity or timelessness. Stare at the real face of God for too long and you will lose your mind. (and not in a good way, haha) God is Cthulhu!

Sinfest, I liked all three of your postings here. I have to say though, "If you really need help, go to a master." can already hint at the problem. I have no problem identifying what I need, but finding it is a wholly different thing. Also, while I don't know anything about the specific author mentioned by OldGreen, I've encountered many cases of 'success-coaches' that in a way are merely running a pyramid scheme. You know, along the lines of: "You can be successful and make a lot of money, and my book will tell you how. Look at me, I'm the living proof that what I teach works! I make a fortune from selling those books that tell you how to make a fortune!" @ralis Lighten up! Don't play forum police. ... Every posting bumps a topic, you know?

This works for me in a fucked up way. First, what's not fucked up, but kinda makes sense is that it follows the wisdom of "make a wish and then forget about it". If my mind doesn't let the wish go, it won't manifest. The result is that wishes will only manifest for me if the thing is insignificant enough to not get attached to it, and that when I abandon a desire, it will still manifest later, and usually be useless to me due to the timing or circumstances. I could get exactly what I wished for, but in a totally useless context. Also, the only time it seems strong and current desires can manifest for me is in a fake way - meaning everything will happen exactly like I wished for, but then if I follow along with it in order to benefit from it, it turns out to be a 'hollow pseudo-opportunity'. This sucks!

If you eat only plants, you will become a vegetable, haha. I know the feeling. It frustrates me. I feel that what I'm craving would feel delicious right now, and it's very much NOT anything I can think of. But what can one do in that situation? First one has to know what it is, and second it has to be obtainable. Sometimes I think the craving isn't even about any food, but only manifests as food-craving for a certain reason, maybe because a spiritual need has become so solid that it manifests as a physical craving.

While I share the scepticism, I don' think you have proper statistics. Yes, only one person can be a reincarnated cleopatra, but there might be 5 claiming it and 1 actually being it. How would anyone know? Also, when people figure out their past life traumas and it turns out they had no ordinary life (if you want to use that concept), well, people without severe stuff wouldn't be driven to seek out means like that, so naturally those who dig that deep have had some special painful experiences. Personally, after trying many things and eventually four ayahuasca ceremonies that gave me a lot of massively out-there and confusing stuff and nothing clear and definitive that my mind can make good use of in everyday life, I mostly gave up trying to find the cause for my problems. (Also, feeling horrible nausea doesn't really help me being brave and daring.) Even if I did a hypnotherapy, and even if I saw what happened in a past life, that doesn't mean it automatically dissolves, right? Of if it would, then I'd probably not see anything. There are two approaches that seem to make sense to me: Either you go through an experience that is as difficult to digest as is evidenced by one's inability to overcome the problem complex, or the therapist would have to empirically convince you that what he says is true. I once went to a medium and was told some stuff about my aura, my past lives, spiritual guides. Nothing he said had any component that gave at least an indication that it couldn't just have been all made up.

Indeed. The usual Chinese horoscope stuff is only referring to the year's energy, while the day's energy seems to be much more relevant for shaping a personality. I found Ba Zi astrology to be quite accurate. But when looking at what a year might bring in general, it's alright I guess.

Well, do it as it is happening now (sadly after a LONG wait): The USA is still United States. Some states (and smaller regions I think) abolished the Patriot Act! That's awesome news and very empowering and inspiring. To me, the fact that the USA is a conglomerate of separate states is one of its strengths. Diversity, different angles and approaches to problems, that's healthy. Haha, you could even call it the free market of statehood. You can do that with many people. Of course, if done publicly, it will usually cause a shitstorm among zionist lobbyists and their media, but the fact is that people like Obama, Bush, Clinton, even Kennedy to some degree are perceived too positive by the public, and Hitler too negative. People are quick to come up with the justification "You have to see their actions in the context of their time", but haha, ever heard that said about Hitler? Hitler was exploiting a resentment based on some historical events to broaden his power base. You know, I wouldn't even say people who came after him were inspired by his example, because it doesn't take brains to do what all ambitious power-hungry politicians do. You could say, the choice of means for achieving their goals follow natually. Interesting detail about the German propaganda campaign to censor unbiased historical research is that whenever you do a comparison of anything to Nazi Germany, you will be ostracised, and people will point out that you are relativizing the Nazi regime, as if that was inherently an act of evil. You can relativize pretty much anything, but when it comes to Germany, you are not allowed to challenge the absolute, without-comparison evilness of the Nazis, and the whole thing begins to appear like a perverted national pride about national shame. Don't you dare challenge our champion of evilness! NOBODY is as evil as our Hitler was! Some zealots then might point out a number of 6 million people killed, which ironically is an attempt to relativize! But if you pick up that reasoning and talk about Stalin or Mao, then suddenly YOU are the evil relativizer again. So not only do the zealots define what the rules are, they also feel free to break them unilaterally. (Pretty much what the US government has been doing in world politics.) And this sick situation isn't even solely created by the zionist propaganda storm. It all started with the USA's "reeducation campaign" after WWII, which sought to shape the German people's self-perception and induce great national shame to prevent them ever doing something like that again. Well, if you know a thing or two about psychology, you understand how unwise that approach is and that it will create blowback. And that blowback is the neonazi scene in Germany. And that is villified, which is very convenient, because giving a people a common enemy makes it easier to control them. But it's really just a competition between tyrannies. There are always the power-hungry trying to capitalize on the opportunity. Mafia, neonazis, government ... they all play the same game. Sincere people and fools at the basis and messed up sociopaths at the top.

This is how LSD messes up your synapses. By writing articles about it that are paid by the word. Makes you all greedy and probably delusional, believing you get paid for good work and confusing quality with quantity. Seriously ... you just pointed out what really messes people up.

Nursing school messes up your synapses.

-

Oh my, that 'case' is the number one cliché argument against LSD. One of those things repeated endlessly by mainstream media. Also, they "reckoned" it was a flashback? Not sounding like detective work there. Everything can be harmful. You can pick a case where drinking water killed someone and then start your smear campaign against water. By the way, we should all be very careful with life, because statistics show a 100% mortality rate for people afflicted with life.

Collective blame, eh? Then you are part of the problem, being member of that 'generation'. The country isn't run by LSD fans, but - as usual - by the power-hungry elite.

Isn't "recreational drug" a vague term? To me, alhocol is a recreational drug. Psychedelics definitely not, since they are spiritual helpers and often cause a journey only suited for the bold seeker. I'd define recreational drugs as ones that put you into a pleasant state that will eventually fade without causing any change to you. THC might be considered a grey area, depending on dosage. High THC doses seem to be able to cause psychedelic/entheogen-like effects.

@viator OK, so it was a twice-translated version. I don't know whether translators between English and German take more care than they do in fictional works, but there it's kinda horrible; translators twisting the writing into their own personal style and interpretation. So one should not attribute an English Wilhelm version solely to Richard Wilhelm - the same way that I wouldn't judge an actor's performance in a movie by the German dubbed version of that movie. A personal conclusion after some observation in this area is that a 2nd level translator should not do a wannabe-accurate translation without consulting the original author. Most translation jobs are probably done in an autonomous way without asking the author for the meaning of certain passages where several different translations are possible. Instead they solely rely on their personal competence and confidence, which could be called lacking selflessness. (Of couse only in cases where the author could have been contacted about this.)

At least the powers of the mind are quite impressive. Some people are shown this during psychedelic trips - that the mind has more power and control over oneself than people think and is not a total slave to biochemistry. One good anecdote for this is a guy taking DMT, having an amazing psychedelic trip and then in that trip, he pushes a button and the trip is over instantly, like he had never taken DMT. The DMT surely still was in his body, but the program in his brain decided to no longer use it - just ignored the substance. Also, there are cases where people take ayahuasca and absolutely nothing happens. Thus I believe that if some nasty substances in your food are causing depressive tendencies, it's because your brain has been conditioned to react to them in a certain way. Nothing is set in stone.

OK, on a serious note... 1) What do you mean by "misguiding"? 2) Can you briefly explain how you can come to the conclusion of parts of the Wilhelm translation being misguiding? (I'd assume the Chinese version has to serve as reference, including a good understanding of the language in all its facets, subtleties and implications. After all, that's what people say about Richard Wilhelm.) 3) Are you well-versed in the German language? I have to assume, since you directly compared Cleary and Wilhelm version, and imagining the alternative - comparing the Cleary version to a Wilhelm version that was translated from German to English - would just be hilariously twisted.

This statement coming from you surprises me a bit. It sounds very much like you have no clue about ayahuasca. On the level where ayahuasca can operate, there is no external. But even if you look from a mundane level, it should be obvious that nothing is done without external stimuli. Calling ayahuasca an external aid is adding an artificial distinction. THAT is a thing of the mind, too. I can phrase it many different ways: - Ayahuasca is not an external helper, because the helper is your internal decision to take it. - Ayahuasca is a tool for opening your mind to yourself. - If you want to unlock a door to greater insight and wisdom, ayahuasca is a key. Meditators shunning entheogenic substance consumption are saying that you should forge the key yourself. But hey, in order to do that, you need tools and raw materials. Isn't it unwise to use tools to make the key? Make your own tool! Well, guess what you need to do that. ;-) Everything is interconnected. There is no 'doing-myself without help'. ... There is no doing. ... You can go as far as your mind can grow and accept, but saying about ayahuasca what you said is going backwards.