Owledge

@Jetsun You should have linked the video, because in the context of the video, the Youtube comments are hilarious.

If you take the time to read all this, I'm confident you won't regret it. I enjoy explaining abstract things in much detail so that people can imagine it better. I will now write the experiences that I had with my first two ayahuasca ceremonies at a Santo Daime church, in the hope that I might inspire you and that your feedback might help me get more clarity about the experience. First ceremony: It was basically a dance with way over 100 people for 5 or 6 hours, shamanic style, very repetitive, just moving left-right with different steps. Interestingly in an octagon. I did a taste test and surprisingly the ayahuasca brew didn't taste horrible to me, just slightly unpleasant. After some time I got weird feelings, a bit like drunk/poisoned/nauseated. When that effect peaked the first time, it felt like I am bordering on discovering something totally frightening or awe-inspiring because it would void many concepts of the mind. Later I'll discover what that feeling was about. My mind was running with thoughts and I tried several times to stop it. Eventually the drugged-like feeling was like I could feel the thick energy field of the circle, swaying, and if I followed the movement, it would feel in sync, if I was out of sync, I could feel the subtle forces. So I tried my best to just let go and follow. A bit like spontaneous Nei Gong maybe. My first 'real' perception of energy fields. ... Then suddenly I came to me on a mat with a bleeding nose and the coordinator helping me. I had fallen unconscious and hit my nose on the floor. I was not in fear or panic, just a bit confused at first, but then quite relaxed and happy. The fact that I had been forced to switch off the mind felt like a relief. Not sure how much of that was psyche and how much body chemistry though. From there on, there was so much subtle insight or feelings I got. A whole process of awareness and pondering and experiencing started. I felt immense awe and humility towards the power of the plant. I felt she must be the ambassador of the universe itself. For example, when I listened to the repetitive singing, it felt like it was the immutable rhythm of life, knowing no mercy, just doing its thing, and those who don't obey... their fault. No special treatment for anyone. Things like that and also the subtle feeling that the surrounding events, everything that happens, is a lesson of the plant and the universe itself, made me more accepting of all kinds of experiences. At least for a while. It's not like that stereotype of having a profound insight and then you are a different person, and that's why I can't rule out that it's a temporary effect because it's just the chemicals giving me a high. What happened after my nose stopped bleeding: Nausea. And this experience troubled me. I was at first kneeling on the ground in a humiliated position, head over a bucket, and I felt a bit like I have to vomit, not very close to that, though, but it was not normal. It felt like connected with the nausea was a lot more, and I can only guess how much. Maybe all of my egoic mind, not sure. I observed how something in me was begging "Pleeease, no, have mercy!". I felt so miserable during that experience that having to vomit at that time was like the most horrible thing. Metaphorically speaking like the plant got me by my balls and was beginning to squeeze. I also thought that whatever was talking there was really a pathetic worm, totally chickening out. Very disappointed with myself. But at least I totally gave in to the miserable feeling, fully lived it. Felt more relief that way. After that I sat on a chair when I felt I 'deserved' it, looking towards the circle. We were told in advance we should not cross hands or legs, that would block the healing energy, and oh my, I was really tempted to cross my hands on that chair. I could feel how that thing in me was unwilling to handle any more healing. I could really turn the healing from the dancing circle pretty much on and off that way. Later I lied down, still feeling sick, and then it was basically a lot of pondering, feeling into myself, and the nausea slowly fading, accompanied by some regions having muscle jerking every now and then. I can only assume that stuff got shaken loose, analogue to shaking medicine and many other techniques. I just allowed it to happen. Interestingly, once I felt a little better, I was regretful and really wanted to vomit, but couldn't, and when I was offered more ayahuasca, I declined because I had to drive home later and dunno, maybe that was just an excuse. I simply didn't feel strong enough at that point. In pondering about things up to now, I've been wondering about the nausea part. I frustratedly thought I might have the greatest barrier imaginable to overcome. I also assumed that maybe the problem was that what the plant attempted to purge was simply too much at once, but also considered that maybe I was never intented to actually vomit at that night. All very vague, but maybe I now understand how it feels to receive messages for the heart instead of the mind. It's not clear-as-fact, but suddenly there are impressions, associations. Later, while in bed, I had this line of thought: Maybe the feelings associated with the challenging of the egoic mind are it defending itself. But the egoic mind is not to be purged, right? Not even transcended. It is about not being controlled by it any longer, right? Then these assumptions: 1/3 insight: Ayahuasca made me feel miserable to show me my egoic mind. 2/3 insight: My egoic mind made me feel miserable in order to maintain control. 3/3 insight: I myself made me feel miserable because I fell for the egoic mind's bluff. Nothing bad is going to happen if I vomit, nothing is even happening to my mind, except that I free myself of the ego's dominance over my heart. There's nothing to fear but fear itself, right? So it would be an irrational fear being triggered, because there is nothing behind it. Now to the second ceremony: It was singing, mostly sitting, a bit standing. But that's not so important. This time I had more resolve to succeed where I had failed last time. I still don't know whether the vomiting that gradually happened this time was of any significance, because a day later, I don't really feel any permanent relief or something. When the scary feeling occured, I again shyed away if I remember correctly. OK, so the following was mostly practicing to allow the purge (=vomiting) to happen. I got a lot of shaking this time, and for example, when I felt too heady and put one hand on my lower dan tien, my legs and abdomen would shake a lot. I also felt tension in kidneys and heart and just tried to deeply breathe into the areas. OK, all up to this point was nothing compared to the hardcore experience that ensued when I boldly accepted a second glass of ayahuasca. And it's this part that I am really confused about. The second glass was good at quickly inducing vomiting, but the whole purging would go on for a while. I got to that scarily profound point again, but this time, I gave in to it. And then, with eyes closed I think, I began to see moving, colorful patterns. And then they bleeded over into open-eyed perception. I began to see rasters and geometric patterns in stuff, and highlighted symbols on the floor tiles and a strange doll-like thing near a chair. It was a bit like my perception got infused with creative imagination on steroids. And then I was trapped. It was dawning on me that I was witnessing some kind of creative source, which was me, and there was nothing else. It was exactly like that saying that the One cannot experience itself. I was in a loop. Whenever I had some kind of thought/idea/assumption that was based on normal reality, immediately I would get re-routed and referred to the thing itself that creates all that. This was scary as hell, but I didn't really feel fear, just confused frustration. For example, when I though: "I just want it to stop!" the immediate realization would be that this is based on time perception, and there is none anymore in this state. Occasionally, and especially if I touched things and focused and moved my head, normal reality would be slightly coming back for a brief moment, but any thought I would form then would immediately start the madness again, often repetitive perceptions of things that probably already happened. The following was basically a struggle to not lose my mind. (Maybe that's a very accurate way of saying it, but I have no idea until I can examine several viewpoints on the experience.) In the brief moments of 'reality' I'd think: "If I give into it, I will go insane. I will never come back to experiencing reality with a sane mind." And the times I gave into it for a moment, the colorful patterns were accompanied by a very vague perception of a buddha-style figure sitting in lotus position (EDIT: or maybe just the head, not sure), calmly enjoying the process of being. Gradually, several philosophical ideas emerged that in the end gave me a realized mindset that felt good for a while, but now it's weird that I remember everything but it's all still chop wood, carry water, as difficult as before, haha. Maybe the real work for me comes after the drug trip. I now believed that I was experiencing the source, the one consciousness, and that - as Daoism mentions somewhere - it cannot experience itself. Every look at itself would just point at the process of looking and creation, the looking is a part of the thing that looks. Totally paradox, and "infinite loop of consciousness" is really the best term I can come up with. One exemplary thought during that process would be: "Do I still need to vomit, to release something?" and the insight would be: Do you want to? You decide everything. I could even consider doing it and not doing it both, exploring both options, and I did repetitively, without coming to a decision, which probably was impossible, because making a decision is time-based. I thought: "OK, focusing on normal reality, isn't purging something I came for?" and this thought again would refer me to the all-powerful consciousness and I was like AAAARRRRGH and really got tired of all this! You know, try to imagine this: You think: "Eventually it has to end!" and then you feel like with looking at those colorful patterns in the first place, you ended your walk of life in normal reality and all lives, like it's done now, just BE now. But I was repulsed by that prospect, probably in parts due to it seeming utterly boring. So what ensued was me struggling through different loops of repeating impressions and clawing my way back to normal reality, having mood swings from calm and content to confused and desperate, and it seemed that every now and then I passed some kind of milestone and then the watch would reward me with advancing 5 minutes or so. During a loop experience, the time wouldn't progress at all it seemed. Oh yes, at one point I got my watch from my jacket in the wardrobe in order to help me stay in touch with the realm where time exists, and walking there felt fake like I am an actor and the jackets in the wardrobe, it was just fake, just symbolic, because I was creating all those things, so the fakeness at the same time felt more real than real. That's also why, while I was lying around on a mat under a blanket, I acted pretty unconstrained. I treated my environment just the way you treat stuff that is yours anyway. Later on, I kept drifting back into oneness mode because I followed the advice to lie straight and just allow the healing energy to flow. And every time now that I drifted to that state again, it felt like a cool mist was flowing throught my third eye. Sometimes I'd just sit there and put my arms in front of my forehead, but that was an act of despair. Of course that couldn't block anything. I kept telling the coordinator that I'd be so happy if I could just forget all that. And as I said, funnily afterwards I didn't forget anything, only that connection to oneness faded away. Eventually, when the trip was mostly over, and lasting for a few hours, I gained a strong acceptance of all kinds of experience, not only positive ones. So unlike what people say about ayahuasca trips, it was not the memory that gradually faded in my case, but the feeling. I had a greater appreciation for just joining singing and everything that is not thinking, but just going with what happens. And now I'm wondering what the point of all that was, what alternative outcomes there could have been and what they would look like. I'd very much have preferred to get more ordinary insights that might help with my everyday life, to help me find my way, and then I got that probably most-profound-of-all experience. Has my mind gotten just too curious about profound questions so that now I got what I asked for? (All the time I just wanted a gradual, wearing-down the stone type healing experience.) And do you think if I had managed to totally give in to the oneness experience and not freak out, I might have transcended suffering and become an enlightened being like the buddha? Was it even an option? I don't know. But maybe I had a choice between strengthening my affirmation of life or my transcendence of life and chose the former one. Which in a way probably was what I wanted in the first place. I am not ready to transcend it, I want to dive into it. You know, it kinda makes sense to consider that I might have witnessed the reason why and process of the creation of this reality - that the Dao was so sick and bored of itself just being that all the utter despair I felt was making it happen. It seemed like the trip would not end unless I reached a devotion to the 'illusion' that is powerful enough to make it convincing. That also made sense when I wished with me being all-powerful I'd have the heartfelt wishes and goals in my life manifest just like that, because then I'd get the insight that that would be cheating - that the illusion can only work if you don't cheat, and that the One, being myself in a way, has no intention of destroying its precious playground. Another profound thing I am trying to wrap my head around: Couldn't it be that the oneness was the illusion and the normal reality the more profound state? That all the time, it was my mind playing with itself in self-importance and showing me how if the mind doesn't let the heart steer the ship, it would end up in madness? Wow, this makes so much sense right now if you consider the connection between having severe heart chakra issues (sociopaths?) and mental insanity (mind fading out reality, only busy with itself). Maybe if I hadn't tried to come down again during the trip, I would have affirmed that process of mind being busy with itself, and I could have continued that for as long as I wanted, and time would not pass for me. Infinite loop. Total wacko. I think I'll attend some more ayahuasca ceremonies. I guess the mere curiosity about what will happen next time and the fact that my life still looks pretty much the same drives me. But one thing I tell you: During the trip, I kept telling me: "In case you forget a lot of this, remember this one thing: NEVER TAKE A SECOND GLASS!".

You call that "really nothing"? Just joking. Of course nothing is everywhere.

Encore: There's "motion" in "emotion". - Well, yeah, but if you look at things like that, then there's also "sham" in "shamanism".

If someone thinks about eternal bliss and that threatens to drive him crazy, it is only the mind that reacts like that. The more love you live, the less scary that prospect is to you. Or eternity without love, too. Eternal existence and awareness is maybe the most frightening thing to the mind, but once the mind is tempered with love, it's the most normal thing in the world and not a single stressful thought is formed based on it. I see hate as fear combined with purpose-giving concepts (=liking). Fear is the habit, hate is the agenda. In a way, you could use the term passion, too.

Stop far away from a failing light and wait a while to see whether it lights up again. Or stop at another one and see whether the effect repeats itself. Or maybe the universe is telling you to stop searching for enlightenment.

Could it be that those experiences are less about sympathy, but about balance? That you opened yourself to the swamp and thus accumulated a type of energy that you didn't need and thus created an imbalance in yourself? Trees are associated to certain of the five elements. If you e.g. already have a slight excess of water element and meditate next to a tree representing the water element, maybe it feels as if the tree doesn't like you, when in fact it's all happening in yourself.

There was a guy at the shaman's who did shaolin kung fu, and for him that is a technique - synchronizing the pulse of the heart with that of the third eye. Well, I had one of those moments where it seems like I am talking to myself, expressing my feelings in words. I was thinking about my ayahuasca experience/sensations and then it was like: "Why are you coming back to this again? Still searching for something? You have already found it, don't you remember? You already are awakened. You chose to forget. Make up your mind." Not on a rational basis, like a command to do anything. Trying to go back there in my mind is all part of the play and still a useful and interesting process, but it felt as if it was telling me that that 'other world' is, as you said, there, here, all the time. I'm simply phased out of it with my perception. But that other state is 'awakened'. So in a way, that coveted state of awakening or enlightenment or whatever people call it, that is not a state to reach or find, but a state of a mind accepting to stay in that realm while ordinary life is going on. It's all about how much reality you can handle. (These are just vague thoughts I am moved by. No claim of accuracy.)

@Cameron This is really a curious phenomenon and showing the message in it clearly. The universe is trying to show you that there's something you need to work on. It is connected to a desire to see yourself in a way that you are not. As soon as you delude yourself with that image of yourself of being done with this forum (expressed in words that try to convince yourself) and being above petty quarrel and all that, you are destroying that image by continuing to post. The first step now would be to breathe deeply, look at this lesson and acknowledge it. (You might begin to smile without intention.) Then, the second best (only temporary) solution would be to muster the discipline to stop posting anymore. The best would be to go through an inner transformation that enabled you to say goodbye to TTB without needing any discipline. The discipline might only be needed for reaching that state. But not necessarily. The aim is to say goodbye to the idea of saying goodbye. (It looks like a separation issue.) Once you have reached that state, you have overcome a process in yourself that you have little control of now, and you will have overcome all mental constructs about posting on TTB being harmful to your spiritual journey. The very fact that TTB is involved in showing you this aspect of yourself that is asking to be dealt with kinda confirms that it is helpful, and this can already be used for resolving the issue. Good luck!

A human being.

That which is pretending to be is not.

It's OK. We are all pretending to be someone we're not. We pretend to be persons, human beings. It is what makes things interesting and fun. Part of the game. Certainly doesn't sit well with you. Non-electronic communication at times brings out the worst in people. People will convey non-verbal stuff in direct interaction that they could never convey in electronic communication. There are ways of making someone lose their composure that simply don't work in internet forums. You are making a choice of putting the blame about unpleasant interpersonal relations on the means of communication. That is a way of paving the way towards easy rejection of responsibility.

There might be many more of that kind than you think. Also, don't confuse gravity of result with healing ability. Some people are easier to heal than others. The perceived severity of an illness is not a reliable indicator of how difficult it is to heal. The patient's inner state is a factor in the healing. (A shaman might be able to heal one person's cancer but not another person's alcohol problem.)

Depends how you define maturity. To me, for example, George W. Bush is very immature. I consider maturity the abandonment of fear. Immature behavior is based on fear. It's somewhat related to the term "teenage angst". Childish behavior is pretty much the opposite. It is a behavior based on fearlessness; Including not fearing to violate social norms. Maybe you'd like to replace "mature" with "grown up" in your statements. The term "grown up" is a bit like "Welcome to the club of equally emotionally messed up people. You are one of us now." Forgetting is an essential life skill.

Only a finite space can have a center.

Also, during that state of mind or being, there is no onjective truth, for all 'truth' is merely ideas manifest and defined to be true. (I remember one somewhat more distinct moment where even some profound buddhist wisdoms about the nature of the universe felt like merely 'added for flavor', since there is no universe to begin with.) Even the 'source' of every idea I perceived was there because I wanted everything that happens to stop, or to escape from that realm, that layer of manifestation of consciousness. That feeling of being trapped in eternity, I think that had to do with the perception that I was looking for the root, the core, the origin, but I was walking in circles. I couldn't really find it, because there was none. Maybe this is still a limited perception, and I don't remember stuff that clearly, but the most troubling state for me was that there was no reference point. Everything of reality was relative to everything else, without any fixed point. Moving away from something would at the same time bring me closer to it. Think about those fractal pictures where you zoom in and everything is made of the same form that those forms form. But now try to imagine how it feels with DMT: there is no number of forms. The forms that seem to create the shape of that bigger form are that same form. See a snow flake with four points, and each point consisting of that snowflake shape? They are all the same shape. And when you realize that, you realize that then there cannot even be one shape. They are all no shape at all. The very idea of a shape requires separation, a space in which it can exist. Without that space, there can be no shape. Sorry, impossible to describe. If you had an experience like that, you probably couldn't even come up with appropriate curse words for your feelings. You'd end up with silence as the infinitely powerful ultimate curse word. I'm kinda excited in anticipation of how much more I might remember that I have forgotten. There's really no telling. There might be no limit to what I could 'remember', if I really had been shown everything. Haha, try to wrap your head around that. It also feels as if my character development, the amount of fears I have, determins how much I am allowed to remember, for I will only remember stuff that my current state of mind can handle. Sometimes at night, when I'm in bed, merely focusing on my third eye + crown chakra gives me an eerie feeling and then I try to focus on the lower dan tien to feel comfortable again. It's a bit like being torn between fear and curiosity/playfulness.

We're all lunartics.

People who have an understanding of cancer apart from western medical establishment also understand why so many things have cancer-curing properties.

Oh, the selective perception. I told you to love your body, not to jerk off. You yourself quoted a text mentioning compassionate and protective love and then you ignore that and equal all love to lust. You are boring when you do that. I will leave you alone now.

I feel compelled to spontaneously add this comment: It is curious how despite the fact that usually one forgets a lot about a DMT/ayahuasca experience, when I am watching videos or pictures about the matter and wrapping my thoughts around it, bit by bit memories and feelings of the trips are coming back. Just now I remembered how during the first major trip, I was connected to/united with reality, how it felt as if my whole body was wired into the fabric of reality. I also remembered the feeling of how my breath would speed up and slow down the process of reality-manifestation, as if everything that happened originated from my intention and was manifested through my breathing. I remember how I was made omnipotent in that way and how I couldn't handle that, because it made any kind of purpose void; my mind needed a purpose. I remember how I would close my eyes then in order to separate myself from that experience, but that would cause even my body to stop being a body and I would become 'all that'. As if my closing my eyes was connected to the idea of stopping what I see from happening - which was what happened in a way, because of my omnipotence. And I think that was where I saw that dreamer-buddha that freaked me out most. I was trying to escape from omnipotence and stumbled into the eternal void, so to speak. I suppose you can see why an experience like that has a massive life-embracing effect on the mind.

@hagar One thing I wanted to add: In the Adyashanti video, did you notice the eerie moments of silence? (e.g. around 4:30-4:50 and 9:50-10:10) To me it feels eerie, because that's when the whole mind process suddenly stops. It is as if at that moment the realization is lived that the 'message' can not be captured intellectually, but only felt once the mind is silent. Almost like being in another zone. And that's also the crucial difference between the mind stilling itself and being stilled without having any choice about it. During my more recent ayahuasca experiences, I had the state where I couldn't finish thoughts or answer questions. I hit a brick wall, talking seemed very complicated, and that might have been the helpful process of stopping the intellect from working, to give me a break. Best quote from the video: "Every once in a while sometimes that isn't there, and then .... ah .... *sigh*"

I looked at the moon and now I have a new blind spot on my retina. ... And the moon was behind clouds!

Hm, I wonder how the gods think about a mortal being talking like that. I guess they're either 'not amused' ... or totally amused. It's one of those immature "but"s. It's like waging war for peace. It's a fallacy. Trying to achieve ends by using means that stand against the end. You cannot free beings by taking away their freedom of choice. They are where they are by choice, just as you are where you are by choice. Oh, you already put yourself above humanity. Interesting. Well, maybe not. Petty tyrants usually have great ideas about how to improve humankind, how to lead them into a glorious age. They think they know what is right and good, and justify their actions that way. It's the same thing you have going. It is based on fear and pain. Ever noticed how enlightened beings are kinda relaxed and radiating love? Well, maybe you should put yourself to the test and ask mother ayahuasca for a death experience. But I don't know whether she would feel insulted about it, so I only wish it to happen if it is alright for her. In any case you will always receive what you need on your spiritual path right now. She might give you one hell of a lesson. Afraid? Let me just add that it's not enough to be willing to die for the world. You have to be willing to live for it. And that seems to be the core of your problem. (You see, since you don't seem that much attached to life anyway, giving your life away is not really much of a sacrifice. On the other hand, even if you were willing to continue as you are now, in great suffering, that's merely your personal choice. You don't have to suffer. You can live happily, and what separates you from that is merely a choice. But it cannot be made with words. It has to be realized deeply.) There's that great saying: "Give up and you will succeed." Well, if you need to make a great sacrifice to show your devotion to the universe, then sacrifice your quest. Don't sacrifice your life, but who you are now. That will show your humility and devotion and honor the gods, so to speak. You should really do a reality check here. You are stressing out a lot. You see enemies and problems all around. You have desires. You spread negativity. The world already has enough of that, thank you. "Marvel's The Avengers - Nick Fury of S.H.I.E.L.D. brings together a team of super humans to form The Avengers to help save the Earth from Loki and his army." Come on ... SERIOUSLY?! Marvel Comics' good-vs-evil-philosophy? This is a Taoist forum, not a Christian missionary activism platform. Life is a play, and the so-called evils are there in order to make you the entertaining person that you are. And it's even funnier as long as you don't realize that on a higher level it's you yourself who added those characters to the play. I respect your openness about your sexual frustration. It signals that it is at a stage of great despair. Rejoice! Usually people will have it easy to receive help at this point. All the emotional crap in your egoic mind might already be in the very process of being shaken up so that a purging is nigh. You might be right that something special is happening soon, just not what you expect. Be ready for a positive surprise. ... Ah, no, don't be ready. It's more fun that way. Well, you're not telling anything new here. I looked up the description of "Immaterial World of Neither-perception-nor-non-perception" and it is clear as day that the pain in your mind is running wild so much that it rejects everything bodily. Free yourself by letting go of the mind. (Try zen meditation.) Somewhere down the road you forgot that spirituality without love is futile. Learn to love your body and all physical. You might not like it as it is now, but if you send love towards what is, you are freed of the pain that paralyzes and obscures the path of change.