LoneHaven

forgot who posted it but i kept the link: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/405307/Multivitamin-Guide

Thank you for this link

Welcome. I don't think anyone has to work if they don't want, unless they feel compelled to by the current standards set by society. But I also don't think society should support a guaranteed minimum income for one that chooses not to. If one chooses not to work, then one should adapt one's lifestyle as necessary - not expecting society to support him/her. If you have not enslaved yourself with debt, then congrats for being able to roam free. As far as real 'bums', the few that I have met were some of the best souls. They seemed more real and down to earth than most people I talk to. They have no need to be phony it seems - they just are.

I know this is related to the training question, but questions like this always bring me inner contradictions. Here is what I settled on a while back: Knothing can truly be know within the realm of our subjective perceptions - through our internal processing of all information that we recieve and interpret. I cannot prove and truly know that I am hear typing this - it is what I perceive, but I cannot prove this. Sounds a little crazy - but then so are some dreams we all have at night. I accept it based on my perceptions and processing - but how can I really know it. I do have faith that some of you (and all of us can eventually) expand awareness or consciousness outside the realm of subjectivity to where you truly see (not in the visual sense) the objective oneness of all. I do not know this - so at this point it is subjective faith. But I think when you perceive things outside of yourself - this is when knowledge can be really known instead of accepted. So, if you can reach the objective oneness state, illusion is shed and all things are seen - again this is not what I know or have experienced, just what I have internally churned around a while back. There are contradictions in some of this but its how I see things now inside of my beautiful subjective world

I went to the link...it is the music video for Crash Test Dummies' song MMM MMM. Last verse is: then there was this boy whose parents made him come directly home right after school And when they went to their church they shook and lurched all over the church floor He couldn't quite explain it they'd always just gone there Guess Germany filters content?

I am somewhat over this too. I have learned from this it all depends on the perspective, intent, and situation of both the student and the teacher. I still have a general opinion on this - but it is idealistic from my perspective. This has helped me see the other points of view though, whereas before I was focusing mainly on mine. So thanks all for that.

Makes sense. And I am sure it is rare. All of the world is money based for the most part - so to overcome it I imagine is a big challenge - and to avoid it seems sometimes hopeless. Great statemant...thanks for that. Straying off is easy to do - keeping what is important close to the heart will aid and I will have to remind myself constantly what truly is important at this time. This rings so true to me. I can't say anything beyond that...it just feels right. Thanks for that...passing on the knowledge seems worth more than anything. I read about the A.'.A.'. a few years back - I forget if it is Golden Dawn or Crowley based or not, but its cool you brought it up. I was looking at Tao Te Ching translations a week ago online and there was one written by Crowley. I like that they, and the Kung Fu school you went to, choose to pass on the knowledge in such a way as you explained. Its great that they are in a situation where they are able to do that. I am sure in this day and age, it is is very situational - but yeah not impossible.

You may want to create a thread on that or bump your original video thread. I thought your videos were genuine and motivational. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.

I started reading a book on meditation and before getting into the practice the author is going over some stuff like time and dimensions and other concepts. I have thought about this stuff in the past, but usually only take it so far in my mind. The author may discuss some of my questions in later paragraphs, but I put the book down a while ago to think through things in my mind. Pre-condition: A drinking glass intersects a plane and makes a two dimensional circle on that plane. If that circle is aware of itself, it will only know itself to be in two dimensions (x and y axis). It will know nothing of the 3rd dimension (z-axis or height). It may theorize about other dimensions and theorize that it may be a part of something bigger, but it does not know. It has no idea its circular being is just a two dimensional sliver of the overall glass. Now us: We know three dimensions. We theorize about others, but we do not know. So, are we just three dimensional slivers of something larger than ourselves? I only know my x,y,z and cannot fathom what my whole may look like if I am just a sliver. But as the circle did not know it was part of a glass, maybe I do not know that I am a part of whatchamacallit. Am I just a sliver and what am I a sliver of? Time: If the circle is aware and moves around (or not), it can measure the passage of time. It may call time its 3rd dimension (as it knows no height dimension). So we measure the passage of time (or intervals between present awareness or whatever else we want to describe it as) in our three dimensional world and call it the fourth dimension. But why is it the fourth - why is it just not a measurement between third dimensional intervals? Maybe there is a fourth dimension that we are just a sliver of - what it is I cannot imagine. And anything aware of itself on the fourth dimension may call the addition of time its fifth dimension and so on. I am more interested in the thought of 'what am I a sliver of in the fourth dimension' but the time question also interests me. If any thoughts or theories or direct inner-experience, please share. Thanks! p.s. - I don't do grammar so please do not kill me about my prepositions. -LoneHaven

Yes! I was doing this too the other day when I was trying to think of a three dimensional flow (whether that is the fourth or it is just a flow of the third I don't really know). I was envisioning myself as one solid flow - and here I am in this chair, just a sliver of this flow - and another sliver and another. And someone in the fourth (or whatever) would seem to see this solid blob of me from where I was born to my final breath. It is interesting despite the brain hurt it brings on.

Ok...lets remove love from the whole equation. In no way was I trying to compare love to the idea of enlightenment. I was only using the concept of love to compare with something else being beyond money in my eyes. Sorry for the confusion. To answer your question, I am going into this as a spiritual path. If I ever have a teacher, I do not expect anything beyond a teacher. It will be quite some time before I am even ready I think. And I do not know what enlightenment is at this point - it is just an abstract concept without a concrete meaning for me right now. So my use of the word is probably lacking. I do look forward to removing personal desires - though I am sure that is not an easy task within itself. And I know it will be hard work and discipline beginning this journey - I am sure I am very naive at this point but I hope practice and learning will change that over time.

nice videos...I was able to visualize it up to and including the 4th...past that I cliff dive, even with the videos....thanks!

lol....true, true

Note that I was not thinking of love and enlightenment as the same thing per se, I was just trying to show another example of something that can't really have a monetary price put on it. But the emotional security of love is understood I think - and, beyond that, maybe it is the negative emotional view of money that I have that seems to make it not worthy as an exchange for something so pure. And thank you for your blessing. Blessings to you too. Yes...the heart and mind seem to be worth so much more. Just as the teaching the student is about to learn is priceless, so is the teaching from that student years down the road when he/she is teaching others - assuming the student is truly dedicated - that would be key. So, in my head, I am trying to think about all of the non-dedicated students that a teacher sees come along. All of the aggregated years of teaching some that are not really in it to learn. I hope I am not one of those, but maybe I will fade too - I don't yet know. So how is that wasted energy accounted for from the teachers point of view. Or is it wasted at all - maybe one drop of teaching is still worth a lot and, down the road, the teaching (even a piece of it) will have an affect on the former-students life and point of view. So, I am not sure about this. Maybe finding the diamond in the rough, when a truly good student comes along, is value enough for all of the other dissipated students - maybe not. Maybe it is wasted energy teaching non-dedicated students - maybe not.

I can see how money can symbolize value, but I think the heart can show it much better. I understand this. Perhaps this is where I am hung up - perhaps I am going against the grain of what we call value today. This I did not know. I can understand an exchange of energy per se, but did not know this. I curse your previous students - they have ruined it for the rest of us (just kidding about the curse) I guess the old days may be worse - having to chore a majority of the day - but not sure. Its not the money that I have a problem giving up really; it is the idea that it requires money in the first place if that makes sense. I know what you are saying though. This is probably another place where I am hung up and perhaps I will look at money diferently later on. Amen. I understand the points of view that are opposite mine (at my current point in time). To sum it from my eyes, I guess my biggest overall hang-up is the exchange of something so trivial as money for something so grand as following a path of enlightenment. I know, for the most part, we all (teacher and student) need money to make it in this day an age. Its just I equate the idealogy of enlightenment to that of the concept of love - which no monetary value can truly be placed upon. If I am ever blessed to fall in love again, I will not say, 'Thank you very much ma'am, that'll be three-fifty.' I am holding the idea of enlightenment in that same regards. And I guess I am also thinking of scammers that claim to be able to aid one along the path of enlightenment, and then will run off with my money, and perhaps my new love that cost me three-fifty...lol. But if that happens, I guess the answer is to keep along the path with another lesson learned. Thanks for everyone's input. Now I am going to finish my internal debate of using a blog versus a practice journal to help me keep track of my beginning meditations...both sides are winning

Perhaps I am being too idealistic in my current views. I understand the needs of the teacher to survive - it's just I don't know. It just seems all of this should be above money. Ugh ugh ughidity ugh ugh ugh. too late...already passed out

That's funny...thanks for the humor! I like that statement and thanks for it. I guess at this point 'enlightment' carries an undefined definition for me as I do not know how to describe it. On the surface, I see it as going deep inside oneself to expand to all - not sure how else to put it. I am new to this path and obviously lacking. I am not looking to be enlightened so I can call myself a master or to claim special powers - it is more of an internal thing for me - yet it seems it will reach out externally too. Though lacking, my view of enlightment seems that it would be more valuable than money and that money would be irrelevent. Maybe it is the gesture that means more than the money and I like what Vajrasattva stated about intent. Though I still feel a negative view of using money It was the beginning of the month when payment was due and I always paid on time. I did not mean to imply that martial arts and enlightenment go together, it was an example that has stayed with me. Slaps in the face hurt, but I guess I should get over it. Makes sense. I can't know at this point - I guess it is an assumption that money would seem to be a trivial matter when helping others along the path. Acknowledged, truly. I think this may depend on the student's dedication to the path - but I am not even a student so I guess I cannot speak to this fully. But if the teacher and student have a true dedication, it would seem money or no money - the teaching would stick. My idealism may fade by the time I am ready for a teacher. But it is not emotional security that is the reason against the money. Understood. But if I ever see a $3000 posted seminar, and the teacher is blinged out, I am walking away - sorry bad joke.

I can see that. I expect a great student is just as hard to find as a great teacher. Thanks and that is how I feel. It just seems so much deeper and money seems to cheapen it. I am talking about inner enlightment and spirituality. Paying for something so deep and pure seems more to violate my values than the concept of paying for it. That's me though.

93 to be exact - maybe I'll understand next year...lol. 1972.

Congratulations on the wife and good luck with making future UFCers...lol. Your point on what most students will be like is understandable and I am sure they will hand their cash over quickly. And its cool your creating a site to pass on knowledge...I am slowly learning in school the ways of web-building...only know xhtml and css at this point. If you have a question a newcomer to web design can offer let me know. Time will tell if I will persevere with my beginning mediation training - I hope I do. And note that I don't expect training for free nor have I asked for it. I don't expect to ever go to a teacher and say 'you train me now.' It just seems money should not be involved. Whether the return for training is hard work, future helping of others, or something else - it seems to fit better than the exchange of cash. But I suppose the student has to show he/she is worth the time and has the heart worth cultivating. I'm glad its not about the money though...when I saw your videos, it helped motivate a little - and then the charge out the ass comment - but in the context of what you stated, I understand your point. Idealist out.

That's where I'm at I guess. Spirituality and money combined seem unnatural, and at odds, with each other. Someone stating he/she will help save or enlighten someone in return for cash feels negative.

Funny...perhaps I would take an electric razor with me and win the test...lol. To quote you: "Do the time. Be consistent and endure. See the results for yourself." Thanks for that. Yep...surgeon got paid big time. Your point is made. I understand what you are saying, and again maybe I am too idealistic with the concept of money. I am just putting my mind in the place of a teacher. I have spent years cultivating a path and have reached enlightenment. Then I am going to turn around and charge money for seminars and retreats and the like? To me, and maybe just to me, the exchange of money for helping another grow, in spiritual terms, seems lacking. The teaching in itself is indeed priceless and worth more than any dollar value, but I cannot see how it can be priced in the first place. It is more than a college course - it is something much deeper. But your point is clear and I comprehend it, I am just stuck in my idealistic view for now.

Again, sorry for the duplication - I did do a search - perhaps incorrectly though. Thanks for the words and maybe I am stuck in the corner on this one...I'll wait for it to dry and move on.