Trevcaru

Then you are much braver than i. quote name='Scotty' post='118318' date='Apr 29 2009, 05:02 PM'] Only dead people have no experience. And thank you for the delicacy.

i could say, "it is unfathomable!" but i would be a liar... but i can lie to you a little... sorry man, theres no free rides.... if its a paradoxical riddle to you, its a matter of whether you are interested. its not your choice for it to be a paradoxical riddle or not cause it is what it is. NO FREE RIDES THIS TIME. WHY ARE YOU FATHOMING? what makes you special? you think your special? fuck it... IT IS UNFATHOMABLE!there... i said it, im going to hell. but really, why are you fathoming? i mean it... much emphasis on the why, and dont ask me or your neighbor, or Shalafukinbaba Guru-dinglefuk. wait... bigger question, are you serious or are you just playing intellectual tea time deep thought party? or no, wait, your just going to believe me or some shit that its unfathomable, right? Wait... you hit the nail on the head. But did you? does it seem... or the bigger question that im not going to ask.... look i cant push you through the door, no one can, but i can waste my time here paving the pathway up to it and decorating it with flowers and hire clowns to dance around it..... what the fuck am i doing? oh, right, we are all one. And i suppose the bodhisattvas can all hang themselves when they are done. They are liars too.

experience 1377, from O.Fr. experience, from L. experientia "knowledge gained by repeated trials," n. The apprehension of an object, thought, or emotion through the senses or mind Im sorry if i wasnt very clear. What i meant was that the observer may say, he is having an experience. Or i may strive for an experience. and i may have an experience... but when there is no one there to experience, when there is no gap between ones self and the action, then there is no experience. Afterwards it is an experience when i talk about it, or when i strive for it... maybe i feel it was so wonderful, so i try and obtain that experience again. But its not simply semantics.... enlightenment cant be obtained, it cant be experienced, in fact its quite the opposite of those. I think maybe the confusion is a matter of time. I cant become enlightened, its quite impossible. Enlightenment is something that happens when there is no one to experience it. The person striving for the experience is like the mouse in the running wheel. We run and run, but we dont see that we are running, its like a feedback loop, it feeds itself. the mind is quite tricky though and it simulates experience and hides and says it didnt do it, cause it lacks wholeness. Wholeness isnt striven for, it comes uninvited, when the mind sees that it is running running is gone. When i am sensitive enough to feel that my hand is burning on the stove, it is removed; no choice, no striving, no belief. The outsider may say, he experienced pain, but this is an external view. This is outside of what was going on. Subtle? maybe. Semantics? no, there is something here...

Theres a Chen guy, forget his name. He is pretty good though. A friend was taking lessons from him there. I met him once one morning. I think he plays around at like 7 am along one of the walls, im sure he would love to let you practice along with his small group.

No, im not talking of brush fires. What i mean is, is our effort to 'become', the root of this violence? Im talking about actual violence, which is the division we have between ourselves. I associate with all the various things cause i am lacking inside. I am not talking of wanting food when you are hungry.... are you listening to what im asking? Im talking of the psych, not brush fires and wanting a meal. Im talking of the desire we have inside for happiness or contentment. Who wants to be remembered when they are gone? I havent met anyone yet that has not. The fear of the unknown is the search for psychological sustenance. We want to be remembered. We want to be thought of. We want to come into the room and be showered with attention. We want our face on the dollar bill. We want our loved ones to miss us when we are gone. We want to be famous. Some of us have more will to go about it, and others have not so much. Let it come to your mind, cause you are discussing it now. I would say you have the cart before the horse. I can see that separation is caused by my association with various things, such as religion, country, my class in society and so on. But what is it that separates us when those things arent there? i dont mean to speculate, but i would not say that the reason we see others as part of ourselves is because we want to own everything as you suggest; it is quite the opposite. Yes, i am lacking this witnessing of myself cause i am always busy running to these images, these ideas i have for myself to become. But what does it mean when we have the desire for another to witness me? Who is it that i want to present to my fellow human. You see what i am asking? Do you see the futility of it all? We occupy our attention with controlling how we look in others eyes! continually, continually. Im saying the audience is the creation. No separation. So what do you do? Its hard, you say, to see yourself. But what is it that you are doing? I would say its hard to not see yourself, the strife is the effort to become all the things you want to become. And when you see those things, with an attentive mind, isnt that the end of them? If i truly see that my hand is burning on the stove, do i have to choose to take it off? do i have to strive? and hope to take it off? no, there is no time, no becoming.

Hi, there was a similar post on this recently. Intention, desire, and the functions of the mind...

This has happened quite a few times. It is very distinct, it has happened some times before i go to sleep... but i am not even close to being asleep and i am fully aware of where i am, in fact it seems as though i truly can feel where i am to such an extent that it is intimidating. Things seem very spacious and empty, and it is a very real and clear perception as opposed to the normal daily perception with so many subconscious filters at play that i am used to. To see things as they truly are can be quite scary when we arent wrapped in the comfort of our illusions that we create to shield our selves from the truth. I also feel this may be true because this comes about sometimes when in deep meditation, or when i have a certain type of very deep conversation with someone that leads to the end of all conversation. I have had them ever since my earliest memories as a baby. I used to be scared but after a while i began to not move psychologically. I can tell you that the back of the head (brain) feels expansive yet empty when this happens, but what it means really i can only speculate. Im not so sure its an OBE, but i can definitely see how you might say that. Cause wherever the focal point of observation is its very "small", "distant", seems like everything is in its place yet so expansive. But im not concerned about it. I dont think its dangerous, although i used to feel similar feelings when i was very little and would get a high fever. Im not pursuing it either, it just comes sometimes and goes. Like the zen story.... A student went to his meditation teacher and said, "My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I'm constantly falling asleep. It's just horrible!" "It will pass," the teacher said matter-of-factly. A week later, the student came back to his teacher. "My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It's just wonderful!' "It will pass," the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

Did it feel as though you were very small, and/or far away from other things? Like you were a lone molecule in a very vast and distant realm of space and it felt a little bit scary, almost a bit intimidating? A feeling of vast emptiness in a more physical sense, maybe a bit floating?

Well, tai chi isnt a thing, its a way. The advancement of tai chi skill isnt rooted in forms, it comes about when we question, or are able to feel fragmentation in movement. If we are simply imitating, then there is no real tai chi. Imitating the form is the lowest level of learning, but then we see the principle as the result of sensing our fragmented movement, then the spirit is. Anything we do, then, is tai chi. This is called Zhuangfa, to be aware of the structure at all times.

Do you mean you want someone else to support you while you attain enlightenment? If you are serious, you could just get your weekend job at some sort of farm, live off the land, and meditate... like the old days. But im sure if you were serious, you would already be doing this. Sounds like you just want a free ride in more ways than one. "Are you going towards something or going away from something?" -growant

Its nothing that i can give to you, or krishnamurti can give to you, or anyone else for that matter. So find out! If your really interested, then you will find out. You can read a million books, a million blogs, or whatever these are, but can they give this thing to you? what thing? is there anything? Im not trying to be smart or quirky; im looking at this. Are you? or are you meeting this with all these things, these ideologies you have; are you comparing, analyzing things in relation to other things.... the question of inquiry is inquiry. Am i right? i dont want you to accept what im saying. Thats not what we are doing. Are we inquiring, or are we entertaining?

Krishnamurti never asserted that there is no thinker or observer. "MZ: Are you saying that then there is only inquiry, there is no inquired or inquirer? Krishnamurti: No, i would say that there is only infinite watching. There is no watcher in watching, but extraordinary vitality and energy in watching, because you have watched the whole psychological, subjective world. And now when you are watching, there is no background which is watching; there is only watching 'as is.' You see, that means with great attention, and in that attention there is no entity who is attending; there is only attention that has space, that is totally quiet, silent, that has a tremendous gathering of energy, and therefore there is a total absence of self-interest. Now is that possible for a human being?" The feeling of 'distantness' is desire. If you use that logic, then am i everything that is an alternative option? Im not sure i understand what you are implying. I see that yes we are divided cause we are running from that which we feel. If we are able to stay with what we are, then the observer and the observed are one. Separation is the naming of a thing so i dont have to look at it, so i can distance myself from that thing. Im not talking of a physical distance, but a psychological. I agree that we are divided, when i am angry i run to happiness, i distance myself. And when i am happy i may feel bitterness as well.... so i ask, can we be that happiness? Can i feel that thing with all of me, without the separation? Effort is striving. Striving is when i have something in my mind and i want to become that thing. Im not talking of a math problem or something like this, i mean psychologically. I may have this idea of this person i want to be, or this idea i have of this virtue, or nobility, or being honorable, or nice, or compassionate. So i make effort to become all these things. This is the ego, these images that we create of these things that are based on our memories of them, and we name them things like happiness and the like. And we strive to become them. Effort, which is desire, is really the ego; the becoming of the images we have. We overlay these images in our perception, distorting it in order to act out our ideas that we think will be impressionable on others. We mistakenly see ourselves as these fragmented images, and try and play it off as a wholeness. In our mistaken identity we look for sustenance by impressing our image upon others. This is the definition of violence. We are violent. It is competitive cause it is limited. It is thought, memory, and that memory is seeking sustenance, security. It must be violent, it must be competitive cause it is quantitative, it is limited. It is my group, my religion, my country, my flag, and we defend what we think is our selves; all the things we associate ourselves with... all the things that we strive to become, our desires.

Hello, i moved this from a different topic related to intention. Yes, the content of all of our experiences, our perceptions; whether conscious, or subconscious.... 'we' are that. The mind has a function which can mix memories, reorganize them cut them up, this is what we call thinking. The self mistakenly associates its self with these accumulations of memory. It simply doesn't know that it isn't an idea. For example, we desire to be like our rich uncle; he is funny, has charisma, everyone likes him. We may desire to be like a great kung fu master that we saw once; he is noble and brave, and everyone looks up to him. All these things, these ideas, we create from memory. We have the image of our uncle, or masters, or whatever; our assimilations of how they might act... all this is based upon memory, and the assimilations are simply rearrangements of those memories with other memories to create this image, this ideal based upon our desire to become like them, or not like them (which is the same thing). This is a very simple thing to understand. We can see this in our own lives, this process happening over and over. We therefore create these ideas of what we think happiness or freedom is based upon our experiences. This brings us to another function that the brain is capable of. It has a very basic function that it uses to do every day tasks. Its easy to understand through example. Lets say there is an apple tree on the other side of a river. We feel hunger and see the apple tree on the other side. The water is quite deep and so we go about devising a plan to get to the tree by building a raft. From memory we know that logs float, we know that vines can be used to bind things, so we go about the forest with these images kind of laid over our perceptions whilst searching for these components to build a raft. It is similar to a filter that is placed between the sensory information and the comprehension that fits our necessity to construct this idea, this image of this raft that is in the mind. This is a basic and necessary function of the mind. It uses this process to accomplish tasks and is completely sane and orderly. Picture i made describing the filter overlay of perception. But there is a problem... at some point the mind mistakenly began to use this same function in the field of the purely subjective, psychologically. Here we can speculate how exactly that came about, but maybe if we go into it a bit further it will add some clues to our present state. What is our present state? The world is fucked up. We are killing each other senselessly, living in pain, fear, and so on. And in our fear, or maybe our ignorance, we use this function which overlays these filters into our perception (purposefully distorting our perception) in a manner that is fractional and divided. Let me explain, and maybe you can see it in your self. Like we said earlier, there is the image we have of the raft, of the right sized logs, of the vines and such, and this is a necessary function that is quite helpful in the process of constructing the raft. We use this same function now in a different realm, where it may soon become apparent that it leads to the mess of the ego and all the horrible things it has done in its quest for accumulation. I say accumulation because at some point the mind has mistakenly taken a self as association to these ideas. Like the memory of the correctly sized logs and vines, we have the image of the rich uncle, the master, the noble one, the compassionate one, and we go about our day using these images that come directly from experience, maybe mash them up a bit, jumble them around so it doesn't look so obvious that we are merely imitating instead of living, and we go about constructing our 'selves' (just as we construct the raft) according to all of our desires, our accumulations of images that we think will make us great (the objective; which is same as the goal of satisfying our hunger via the apple tree). What we think we are is thought itself. Therefore, we accumulate, assimilate, and impose (almost literally super-impose) these memories in our perception; purposefully distorting our perception in order to assimilate our desires, or rather to cover our inadequacies and fear of the unknown. In assimilating these ideas, we warp our bodies accordingly, most of this is subconscious and shows up in our movements. When we are able to see this whole process is it not the end of it? Do you see our predicament? Any move towards happiness is only prolonging our suffering. We try and escape our suffering by running to the images of the uncle, of the master and so on. The running away is the accumulation, the desire. So we have a predicament. Maybe if you are with me, following along, seeing this whole process in your self, you now see this predicament. Any move towards happiness, or freedom is the self accumulating, imitating. It is fear. It sees what it is, well it doesn't truly see what it is or it would be over, but it has seen pain and hurt, and it doesn't want to experience that again, so it runs to these ideas it has so it doesn't have to feel that thing which it does not know. So really we are afraid of the unknown (but to our minds we are afraid of the known, which is the memories of pain), especially when the mind mistakes itself as known; the memories, the charismatic uncle, the ideas. My girlfriend breaks up with me so i go to the movies to feel good; i have the movies, like the logs, the goal of feeling good, and i strive for that. I dont feel the pain, or whatever it is that i believe is there. I dont know whats there, but im afraid.... so i run to the movies, to the rebound girlfriend or whatever. We talk of intention, but im not so sure that intention is something that is to be striven for. I think we are putting the cart before the horse. The question of aligning intention with spirit... i see this as a byproduct. Right now we are fragmented, broken, divided. We have all these images, these conflictions that are incoherent... this is misalignment. Strife, desire; this is the division. We associate ourselves with our styles of martial arts, our religions, or whatever ten thousand things it may be, and this is division. Intention is the byproduct of wholeness, and to understand the nature of wholeness is to understand the nature of division, the nature of strife. Im not talking about the perfectly natural goal of getting the apple from the tree on the other side of the river. Im talking about the nature of the goals, or the desire we have psychologically. If you see this whole process, isn't that the end of the process? Its like the hot stove, maybe when you are a child you touched the stove unknowingly, you felt the heat. You saw this clearly, after that, there was no questioning. If i place the hand over the stove there is no question. There is no choice, there is no time. I dont choose to take my hand away from the stove. Seen clearly, and pulled away. When i am walking and almost step off of a cliff, i jump back! There is no time for choice, i dont say, "hmm, well should i jump back?" I have seen the danger of things fallen, and the damage it can cause, i have no room for choice. The confused mind is the one that chooses. So can we see this whole process of the brain, the whole of it at once, the tricks it uses, and how it uses them... Can we stay with that thing, when we experience pain or whatever it may be... can we watch it without calling it something? Cause when we call it something we are really running. Can we watch it, feel it with everything? Alignment of intention and spirit isn't something that can be striven for. It comes uninvited. It comes as the result of watching, of sensing and feeling. If you are with me on this, and not accepting what i am saying, but instead with me... then is that thing happening?

This is a post in the lobby so i can reply to a topic.

Thank you. I like my tea luke warm.

Thanks for the welcoming response, i have seen this forum in a few of my searches and registered. I made some pictures and have added them to the original post.

Why do we imitate? Why do we have favorite quotes? Are we that insignificant? Are we so dull inside that we rely on others to make us feel good and then we go about imitating them?